All Iberian men were wiped out by Yamna men 4,500 years ago

[hrvclv]

Because there are only two Western IE language families - proto-(Italo-)Celtic and proto-Germanic, and each can be associated to U152 and U106 respectively. As mentioned earlier, DF27 and L21 don't seem to be directly related to either of these modern language families. Perhaps at some point they were, but there is no evidence for this. The Celtic languages must have spread from a later Central European source, and the only real candidate for that is U152. And I'm just assuming U106 is responsible for Germanic speech, but it seems about right

You are ignoring the Q/P Celtic split. And the fact that no matter how you look at it Gaulish P Celtic (U152) is much closer to Irish Q Celtic (L21) than Latin (U152?) was ever shown to be to either. I agree that several waves of Celts came to Britain and brought distinct variants of the language. But I think you are over-simplifying things a bit.

 

[ToBeOrNotToBe]

I'd say Yamnaya Danube. They crossed over the Carpathians some time between 2800 and 2500 BCE, and fanned out north of them. Some stayed in southern Poland (Unetice). My hunch is that others spread westwards to Bohemia, Austria, Bavaria, and some of those didn't stop. They went on exploring and conquering. Some clans made it to Iberia...

But where is the trace of this L51 nowadays? Balkan R1b is pretty much entirely Z2103. What about Vucedol (let alone Yamnaya) being Z2103? And what about the distribution of Z2103 in the Balkans looking very much like the expansion of Danubian Yamnaya (see below)?

We know Z2103 was present in Yamnaya, so where did this Z2103 expand to if not the Balkans? Surely it didn't expand WITH L51, without L51 leaving much of a trace in the Balkans, right?

 

[ToBeOrNotToBe]

You are ignoring the Q/P Celtic split. And the fact that no matter how you look at it Gaulish P Celtic (U152) is much closer to Irish Q Celtic (L21) than Latin (U152?) was ever shown to be to either. I agree that several waves of Celts came to Britain and brought distinct variants of the language. But I think you are over-simplifying things a bit.

I'm not a linguist, so I'm just echoing what I've seen online. Apparently, even with the Q/P split (and that does seem to mirror L21/U152, I'll agree, but it could easily be influence from a substratum), Celtic is still too young a language for it to date back to the British and Irish Beakers. So, either it expanded from the British Isles to Central Europe (super unlikely), or the opposite occurred.

That's what I've read, I have 0 clue if it's legit or not though

 

[hrvclv]

Well, Unetice is massively L11, a direct daughter clade of L51. They didn't drop from the moon, did they?
(Sorry, I don't wish to seem rude, but I'll pick this up later. Week-end planned. Wife calling. Got to go, or shall be beaten

 

[ToBeOrNotToBe]

Well, Unetice is massively L11, a direct daughter clade of L51. They didn't drop from the moon, did they?
(Sorry, I don't wish to seem rude, but I'll pick this up later. Week-end planned. Wife calling. Got to go, or shall be beaten

Unetice is younger than Western Beakers. I personally see Unetice as Beaker men + some Corded Ware cuties

 

[bicicleur 2]

Well, I'd be tempted to say that this issue has been extensively dealt with in the thread "How did the Basques become R1b?".

It probably has a lot to do with the ratio of incoming settlers vs locals, and the ensuing discrepancy between y-dna and autosomal.

Are there any other options you think we should consider ?

the Basques are an enigma

but the other option for Iberia :

they are talking 4.5 ka in the paper
who says the 4 ka El Argar people didn't whipe out part of these 4.5 ka guys?

 

[bicicleur 2]

That, or U152 is a special case where the males picked up IE speech from an outside source (perhaps remnants of the Corded Ware culture). I suspect you're correct, though I'm unsure as hell.
This is all very interesting - only U106 and U152 are responsible for Western IE.

yes, it should be U106 and P312, and they were very prolific

we know the source of the Romance languages, it's very small

 

[CrazyDonkey]

Then if you imply that a similar population as Yamnaya was in the Balkans before Yamna Culture, then it doesn't exist already in some studies, so it's pure supposition.

Sredny Stog?

 

[ToBeOrNotToBe]

yes, it should be U106 and P312, and they were very prolific

we know the source of the Romance languages, it's very small

Not even P312, just U152. Whatever languages were associated with L21 and DF27, they weren't modern IE languages.

 

[bicicleur 2]

Sredny Stog?

we have I2a2a-L699 in Mariupol, in Yamna Bulgaria, in Catacomb Russia and in Vucedol

I don't know where the L699 are now exactly, but it seems to me they were part of the IE expansion to Europe too.

Strange that R1b-L1 wasn't found though.

 

[halfalp]

wow, it's not steppitis but just incapability to think in other possibilities!

You must kidding, every possibilities have been thinked and imagined. Steppe have nothing to do with Gimbutas for what you believe. When the first english indianists in the 1700's have been aware of the relationship between Sanskrit, Latin and Ancient Greek, the Steppe was the first intuition that came to a lot of those people. Do you think that white supremacists want their ancestors to came from Steppe and that they had feet full of herd shits? Come on, you are the one who probably need to learn what the other side believe.

 

[halfalp]

Sredny Stog?

Sredny Stog is the same culture, the same ancestry as Yamnaya. So this ain't gonna ad a lot much to the actual datas. Most of people have actually main and main times talked about a pre-Yamnaya migrations linked with Sredny Stog for West and Khvalynsk for East. So once again, it doesn't change that much.

 

[berun]

You must kidding, every possibilities have been thinked and imagined. Steppe have nothing to do with Gimbutas for what you believe. When the first english indianists in the 1700's have been aware of the relationship between Sanskrit, Latin and Ancient Greek, the Steppe was the first intuition that came to a lot of those people. Do you think that white supremacists want their ancestors to came from Steppe and that they had feet full of herd shits? Come on, you are the one who probably need to learn what the other side believe.

well, I was talking about sticking in the steppes for the Varna guy, even in if he lived 1000 years before Yamnayans, and that Yamnayans own CHG share came by land from somewhere... so please don't recall about XVIII century theories but about actual open mindness.

 

[MOESAN]

Unetice is younger than Western Beakers. I personally see Unetice as Beaker men + some Corded Ware cuties

it seems that as well for auDNA than for non-metrics physical traits Unetice ought more to CWC's than to BB's; I don't know if we have new Y-haplos but the few ones we had for Unetice were rather Y-I, among them Y-I2a2 so common among some regions of Balkans and among GAC - but this sketch could change very quickly with a serious sample - the influence of BBC would have been stronger on the cultural side -

 

[MOESAN]

i you look at RELATIVE %'s of L51 in today pops (rel. to all R1b) you see respectable %s of L51 compared to Western Europe in Hungary, Slovakia, Poland... and new arrivals of L23 from Anatolia after first journeys of 'steppe' people westwards could have erased a lot of L11 in their previous settlements - I doubt we could have this with a late eastwards progression of western BB's, then we rather would have downstream SNPs like U152, DF27 or L21, what semingly is not the case. I regreat more samples of eastern-central Europe have not been analysed at a deep level for Y-haplos -

 

[halfalp]

well, I was talking about sticking in the steppes for the Varna guy, even in if he lived 1000 years before Yamnayans, and that Yamnayans own CHG share came by land from somewhere... so please don't recall about XVIII century theories but about actual open mindness.

Dont talk about being open minded, you are the one who dont read. I said multiple time that whatever if its Yamnaya, Sredni Stog, Repin, Khvalynsk or even more regional and related culture, it's all the same ancestry. Yamnaya is just relevant because it is a culture who emphasis a lot of migrations west and east coming from the pontic steppe that we dont see earlier.

 

[MOESAN]

Well, Unetice is massively L11, a direct daughter clade of L51. They didn't drop from the moon, did they?
(Sorry, I don't wish to seem rude, but I'll pick this up later. Week-end planned. Wife calling. Got to go, or shall be beaten

I appreciate your posts as a whole - here I learn something. Have you some new results for Y-DNA among Unetice? I lack a lot.
Can you not change wife? Or learn martial arts? LOL

 

[ToBeOrNotToBe]

i you look at RELATIVE %'s of L51 in today pops (rel. to all R1b) you see respectable %s of L51 compared to Western Europe in Hungary, Slovakia, Poland... and new arrivals of L23 from Anatolia after first journeys of 'steppe' people westwards could have erased a lot of L11 in their previous settlements - I doubt we could have this with a late eastwards progression of western BB's, then we rather would have downstream SNPs like U152, DF27 or L21, what semingly is not the case. I regreat more samples of eastern-central Europe have not been analysed at a deep level for Y-haplos -

Are you saying early L51 subclades are more common in East Central Europe than Western Europe, as a percentage of total L51?

 

[MOESAN]

Are you saying early L51 subclades are more common in East Central Europe than Western Europe, as a percentage of total L51?

as compared to Y-R1b M269 or whatever the up- or down-stream SNP's taken in account they show as respectable %s. And they have more complete succession of SNP's what is not the case in Western Europe where ancient SNP's lack - I cannot help see there kind of a trail arround Danube -

 

[ToBeOrNotToBe]

as compared to Y-R1b M269 or whatever the up- or down-stream SNP's taken in account they show as respectable %s. And they have more complete succession of SNP's what is not the case in Western Europe where ancient SNP's lack - I cannot help see there kind of a trail arround Danube -

So all it is is that there is more L51 as a % of R1b in Hungary than in, say, Ireland? I literally don't believe that.

Unless you mean L51* (I use L51 to include things like U106, P312 etc.)

Even so: