Vlach haplogroups & deep ancestry?

[gidai]

In the absence of archaeological evidence, I believe that with 2000-3000 years ago on the territory of Dacians, it would not be impossible that it was at great proportions as at present, of Y haplogroups like G2a (discovered recently in the Cucuteni culture), E, T, maybe even some old C and H2, alongside with I2, and newer ocured R1b and some j2.

 

[JajarBingan]

I have seen the whole World generalizes the "stupidity" of the countrymen, this is a false concept,in fact the people from the towns are afraid because the "peasants" have more vigour, do things in their own way,make little compromises and they could seize "the power" much more easily.


The intelligence and creativity are much more concentrated to the countryside,because you have to manage with lots of different,important,situations,while the townsmen are simple flocks led by the local fashion.


Another difference here,genuine men come from the countryside, while in the cities ,you can find a lot of false ones,easy to understand.

It takes a lot of intelligence and creativity to shit in a hole dug in the ground.

 

[Dreptul Valah]

These kinds of expressions are in reality cheap stereotypes about the shepherds, seen by the " normal" people as "outsiders ",men with dubious look and intentions,that have weird ways of entertainment, etc.
To the contrary,shepherdry was in fact an elite " institution " in the past,where only men with certain skills had the chance to practice.
https://www.italyheritage.com/italian-songs/regional/calabria/u-pecuraru.htm
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Wd6o8Ekem9s

As the pictures from the clip seem to suggest,the shepherds have "a strange look", with " hidden ideas",that "might put us in great danger",in reality, these are extremely simplistic explanations of the " traditional ",over static ,societies, that have constantly tried to...spice it up their imagination, see the case of the Salem witches.



Actually, the shepherd doesn't do that look without good reasons,he has to be investigative and surveying, because his crew,flock, are constantly exposed to great risks,dangers,it's much more than a simple defense mechanism, I'm talking here about survival.



Besides, Kekaumenos really exaggerates,he becomes hysterical, using " and" for too many times ,in a sentence(see pgs. 210,211).




https://books.google.ro/books?id=iB...=advice and stories kekaumenos vlachs&f=false

 

[Dreptul Valah]

The Greeks who were against the Aromanians were more linguistic greeks than genetic. Genetically, the origins of these Greeks were either in West Asia or in the Hellenized Aromanians. I also do not deny that Albania has recently given Vlachs rights, congratulations on this! I would like to make a point, that there is a difference between the Romanians and the Aromanians as well as the craftsmen. The Aromanians were indeed known as shepherds and big sheep owners as well as caravan merchants, merchants who were renowned for their ability to do business, while the Romanians were predominantly farmers, raising sheep and other animals, especially pigs , the latter being not raised by Balkan Aromanians.

Pig raising was a very important occupation of the Balkans/Danube area in the Roman period,especially during the 6th.c AD,some studies comfirm;since the populations from the Balkans and Danube were constantly invaded by the barbarians from the north,the typical use of open spaces,pastures,was replaced with the indoor pig raising,because ,unlike cows,for example, these animals could be grown inside the fortified cities,settlements,and fed with the cereal supplies.



Justinian's father,Justin,was the son of a pig breeder from Dardania.



In Romanian, there are a lot of words preserved about the pig raising,interestingly, unlike the sheep vocabulary, there is no Dacian word kept, all of them come from Latin,some,with specific shift,Latin masculus,Romanian mascur (a male pig),other words,vier(uncastrated male pig),rama(to rout),porc,purcea,purcel,scroafa,purcareata(Latin porcaricia,hogsty),porcina(pig meat)"De-a poarca"(Piggish, Of Pigs,kids game),Grigore Brancusi.



https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/râma#Romanian

 

[Dreptul Valah]

I add here the word for sausage,carnat,because in Romania is made from pig meat and lard,this implies that South Italian "Rito di maiale" is the same with Romanian Ignat.



Also osanza,pork lard,from a Latin root axungia,see the figurative sense too.




https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/osânză



https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/cârnat



https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Aps0D_j6j14

 

[Dreptul Valah]

In reality , the Romanian Christmas Celebration has also a pagan significance, because it originates from the Paleo-Balkanic cults,see the paintings with Thracian horsemen chasing boars.



http://www.blog2fete.com/natale-romania-ignat-rito-pagano-maiale-divino/



https://image.isu.pub/120217075804-7b14aea4d71345a6898e6837cdd7b905/jpg/page_1_thumb_large.jpg



Dacian-Tracian god Zamolxis,hunting a boar.



https://media-cdn.tripadvisor.com/media/photo-s/02/74/04/2d/the-thracian-tomb-in.jpg



https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zalmoxis

 

[Dreptul Valah]

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipe...-History-museum-Thracian-god-3-century-BC.jpg



https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipe...rble_votive_tablet_of_a_Thracian_horseman.jpg

 

[Dreptul Valah]

A part of the South Slavs from the Serbian-Bulgarian border area had fled to the mountains in the period of the Ottoman occupation,the so-called Torlaks and Shopi,where they had started to practice shepherdry,locally inherited from the Romanian-Vlach times.



Safarik observed some Romanian names from the old documents in the Struma and Iskar areas,however these Vlachs were quickly Bulgarianized ,the same happened with the Asens.



The charter of the Zica monastery is a totally different situation, because lot of Romanian-Vlach names from the whole Serbian kingdom were preserved, and these are overwhelmingly ancient and Daco-Romanian,the very most still in use.



Yet,those Romanians also had Serbian names that we didn't kept,they were under the Slavization.

 

[Dreptul Valah]

To clarify these,before somebody starts making interesting ideas,Kekaumenos made the Vlachs "cowards" because they were practicing all kinds of guerrilla tactics,proved by his own text and Nichetas Choniates,who writes,for example that the "Vlachs used to withdraw into the mountains and ambush the Byzantine army

 

[Lenab]

To clarify these,before somebody starts making interesting ideas,Kekaumenos made the Vlachs "cowards" because they were practicing all kinds of guerrilla tactics

What's a main ''Vlach'' haplogroup?

 

[Dreptul Valah]

What's a main ''Vlach'' haplogroup?

1) inherited: E-V 13 and I2a,probably J2b2-L...

2)acquired :R1a,Bulgarian,possibly even Cuman


Why do you South Slavs keep asking only about the Y dna,still,easily forgetting the autosomal discussion?

 

[Lenab]

1) inherited: E-V 13 and I2a,possibly J2b2-L...


2)acquired ,R1a,Bulgarian,possibly even Cuman


Why do you South Slavs keep asking only about the Y dna

I was thinking the old E3b would come up but I don't think they are related to Cumans? Never heard of that can you elaborate?

 

[Dreptul Valah]

I was thinking the old E3b would come up but I don't think they are related to Cumans? Never heard of that can you elaborate?

The Cumans didn't passed to the Romanians autosomes,that's for sure,the anthropologic analysis is clear,no significant admixture took place;however, it is possible that some of the lords with this kind of ancestry passed the Y-DNA to some of their servants.



The Papal documents already spoke before the disaster from Kalka,that in the core of the Black Cumania(parts of the Moldavian and Eastern Wallachian plains),the Catholic Diocese with the seat in Milcov,the great majority are called Walati(Vlachs) of Greek rite,who had relentlessly opposed to conversion.



Most likely the Romanians and Cumans had very short-lived contacts(common military interest) and were very separated by the geography, the mountains vs. the plains,otherwise we would have seen a single, mixt,uniform, culture; in reality, the Cumans searched for the Bulgarian and Byzantine territories, after they were destroyed by the Mongols only few chieftains have remained to integrate into the Romanian society, many others have left ,also to Hungary.




The Romanians instead,although the Persian chronicle says that they were defeated too by the Mongols,still, by withdrawing into the mountains, they managed to survive,also as structures.



That's why the remaining Cuman leaders had no other option, but to embrace the Romanian identity, especially that they were probably used by the majority to make good treaties,including alliances, with the Mongols,since a lot of these have remained under the Hord authority, north of the Black Sea.



It would explain how Wallachia took a land from the Mongol suzerainty, the original land of Basarabia,if I recall the Horde had also sent some troops in support for Wallachia in the early 14th c.

 

[Lenab]

The Cumans didn't passed to the Romanians autosomes,that's for sure

Right, well everyone in Europe is related if you want to go that far back.

 

[Dreptul Valah]

1) inherited: E-V 13 and I2a,probably J2b2-L...
2)acquired :R1a,Bulgarian,possibly even Cuman
Why do you South Slavs keep asking only about the Y dna,still,easily forgetting the autosomal discussion?

I have said it,because in the South Slavic territory I2a was much more common than R1a,the same clear difference exists in the terms ,the Romanian cneaz,although borrowed from Slavic,it is ultimately "inherited",because it was used in all the Balkans,especially in the more conservative Vlach shepherds societies from especially Serbia,Montenegro, Bosnia and H,Croatia;still,the function is simply a translation to communicate with the Slavs,the original word is Jude,Latin,see also Judet,similar to Sardinian Giudicati,Judike.



The Jude,cneaz,was involved one way or another in carrying the I2a to the rest of the population.



A very different Slavic word is boyar,borrowed from Bulgarian; we do know that these Bulgarians simply didn't want to share the power with others, but after Samuil's defeat and unsuccessful rebellions,it was the Romanians who saved them from Byzantinization.



The Bulgarian influence, was received through Asens,although many Romanians -Vlachs didn't agree with their Bulgarization,when they had no other solution,the relations with the Bulgaro-Vlachs were restored,at least,to some extent,for example,Ivanko,who, after kills Asen and barely escapes, had traded with his younger brother Kaloyan,against the Byzantines.




https://books.google.ro/books?id=nY...ge&q=ivanko byzantine general kaloyan&f=false
.

 

[Dreptul Valah]

Since the relations with the South Slav and Byzantine nobility and royalty have created opportunities, but from their point of view ,also too many obligations,the Romanians-Vlachs constantly searching for autonomy,they switched from one side to another, not receiving what it has been asked for,they have created what will become Wallachia, in the 14th c.



And ,this search for independence is very well expressed ,for example, by Dobromir Chryssos


.
http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=3480

 

[Dreptul Valah]

Another thing here,very clear,the earliest Wallachian rulers (13th c.)were ALL of 100% Romanian-Vlach origin.



Litovoi, although Slavic,also appears common ,very early in the Aromanian area,as a leader name.



Barbat,his brother,typical Romanian ,Latin name.



Seneslau,Hungarian corruption from Stanislau,see one of the earliest Romanian leader from Transylvania, Stanislau Barsan of Sarasau.



These Slavic names simply imply prestige, fashion,Ochrid,the earliest Aromanian chiefs only had this kind,1070's Vlach rebellion,Vervoi(Berivoi) The Vlach,Slavota,etc.



EDIT



This is in strong contrast with the list of Vlach knezes, from the Zica charter, 1220,were many typical Vlach,mostly Daco-Romanian ,names,lots of them with Dacian or Latin origin, are recorded;still in use today.

 

[Lenab]

Another thing here,very clear,the earlest Wallachian rulers (13th c.)were ALL of 100% Romanian-Vlach origin.
Litovoi, although Slavic,also appears common ,very early in the Aromanian area,as a leader name.
Barbat,his brother,typical Romanian ,Latin name.
Seneslau,Hungarian corruption from Stanislaus,see one of the earliest Romanian leader from Transylvania, Stanislau Barsan of Sarasau.
The Slavic name simply implies prestige, fashion,Ochrid,the earliest Aromanian leaders only had Slavic names,1070's Vlach rebellion,Vervoi(Berivoi) The Vlach,Slavota,etc.

That's interesting but Romanians have always had common similarities with the Vlach

 

[gidai]

Dreptul Valah,
Kaloyan
Interesting Kaloyan remember us Caloianul, witch is a popular practice in Romania to bring rain. Caloianul was the soil sent by men to the god of the rain, to persuade him to unravel the rains. Thus, during the drought, the girls and women in the country made a small yellow clay (called "Caloian") that they put in a coffin and which they thought of as a dead man, imitating the funeral ritual. The women were singing a specific poem, then buried the man in the clay near a well. Three days later they dug it up and threw it on the water to disturb the waters and clouds, as it does before it rains. On Caloian's day, the men were only pending until noon, and the rest of the day they were spending.

 

[Dreptul Valah]

Another Vlach haplogroup,R1b-L23, usual IE marker.