Vlach haplogroups & deep ancestry?

[Yetos]

Sure, I'm not denying that, it's expected to find variation on such a wide area.
Nevertheless, the Vlachs from Serbia are Romanians basically, while those from Greece, Albania and North Macedonia are Aromanians mostly and my reaction previously was on the comment that the Aromanians from these three countries have nothing common in genetics which is a pure lie.

Aspar Well since you call me a liar
I return to you as a 'MAN WITH AGENDA'

https://www.jstor.org/stable/41466295

https://www.proquest.com/openview/b1e6babf80be9d706d532248814411e4/1?pq-origsite=gscholar&cbl=42351

https://www.upf.edu/web/evolutionary-population-genetics/software-data

If the above does not enlight you, then yesterday was Theophaneia, Baptism enlightment,

II believe the researches. than your personal wish genetical data.

Aromani is from multigenetic Roman and South Balkan population, than from Wallachia. (Greek Thracian Illyrian +traces from Europe according area of Legio previous camp, or Villa-city creator)
Romanians are N Danube Thracians etc plus Slavic Antes major + Roman empire + Goth in minor

the term Wallachia has nothing to do, cause it had then Wallons and Walles and Vlach are connected

 

[Valerius]

Per 2025, do we have any info on how much of the Aromanian J was J2a/J2b2? And if the r1b was L23? I was looking at their 208 samples test which gives only basal haplogroups like:

​

R1b 21.63% (45/208)

R1a 10.1% (21/208)

I 20.67% (43/208)

E1b1b 16.35% (34/208)

J 25% (52/208)

G 3.37% (7/208)

—

—

—

– 2.88% (6/208)

​

Also, if we deduct the (likely) 30% Slavic haplogroups, and give 30% more to the rest, we get the following pre-Slavic results:

E1b1b - 21.25%
R1b - 28.11%
J - 32.5%
G - 4.38%
Others - 3.74%

While I presume R1b to be the native Illyrian variation found in Albanians, it is really interesting to know how much was the input of the J2a carriers which likely introduced the Romance language, and how much is the likely local J2b2, expecting this to be also similar to the Albano-Illyirian variation. In any way, what seems from the results is that Aromanians were very similar to what were the ancient Albanians, and they as well formed in the mixed Thraco-Illyrian zone - basically, the lands where they originally lived and still live.

 

[TheOne]

Per 2025, do we have any info on how much of the Aromanian J was J2a/J2b2? And if the r1b was L23? I was looking at their 208 samples test which gives only basal haplogroups like:

​

R1b 21.63% (45/208)

R1a 10.1% (21/208)

I 20.67% (43/208)

E1b1b 16.35% (34/208)

J 25% (52/208)

G 3.37% (7/208)

—

—

—

– 2.88% (6/208)

​

Also, if we deduct the (likely) 30% Slavic haplogroups, and give 30% more to the rest, we get the following pre-Slavic results:

E1b1b - 21.25%
R1b - 28.11%
J - 32.5%
G - 4.38%
Others - 3.74%

While I presume R1b to be the native Illyrian variation found in Albanians, it is really interesting to know how much was the input of the J2a carriers which likely introduced the Romance language, and how much is the likely local J2b2, expecting this to be also similar to the Albano-Illyirian variation. In any way, what seems from the results is that Aromanians were very similar to what were the ancient Albanians, and they as well formed in the mixed Thraco-Illyrian zone - basically, the lands where they originally lived and still live.

Aromanians/Vlachs as a people are most likely to of been formed in Dardania-Moesia area, what is today Kosovo, Serbia, North Macedonia, Western Bulgaria, or at least they were present there during the Roman era and Middle Ages without a doubt. Just like Albanian was spoken there in pre-Slavic antiquity without a doubt. Dardania is an Albanian name.

The R1b and J2b in Vlachs is most likely the Illyrian variant but some are also other types of R1b, some J2a. They do have Illyrian lineages and E-V13. I remember someone posted this on another forum.

 

[Dibran]

Per 2025, do we have any info on how much of the Aromanian J was J2a/J2b2? And if the r1b was L23? I was looking at their 208 samples test which gives only basal haplogroups like:

​

R1b 21.63% (45/208)

R1a 10.1% (21/208)

I 20.67% (43/208)

E1b1b 16.35% (34/208)

J 25% (52/208)

G 3.37% (7/208)

—

—

—

– 2.88% (6/208)

​

Also, if we deduct the (likely) 30% Slavic haplogroups, and give 30% more to the rest, we get the following pre-Slavic results:

E1b1b - 21.25%
R1b - 28.11%
J - 32.5%
G - 4.38%
Others - 3.74%

While I presume R1b to be the native Illyrian variation found in Albanians, it is really interesting to know how much was the input of the J2a carriers which likely introduced the Romance language, and how much is the likely local J2b2, expecting this to be also similar to the Albano-Illyirian variation. In any way, what seems from the results is that Aromanians were very similar to what were the ancient Albanians, and they as well formed in the mixed Thraco-Illyrian zone - basically, the lands where they originally lived and still live.

Do you know what R1a is carried among them? Any L1029?

 

[Valerius]

That’s the thing that they were tested very broadly and there is no info on deeper clades, like we don’t know anything besides those macro haplogroups designation. That is what I was interested if further info was accumulated years after the testing, as I know that people online dig deeper into the SNP calls.

 

[Riverman]

For Vlachs from Romania-Bulgaria in particular we have some big founder branches under E-V13.

One of the most notable ones is the Hunyadi branch under E-CTS9320 (which has a couple of smaller potential Vlach subcaldes too IMHO):

Welcome to FamilyTreeDNA Discover

Discover more about your paternal ancestry and join in on the research!

discover.familytreedna.com

 

[Valerius]

For Vlachs from Romania-Bulgaria in particular we have some big founder branches under E-V13.

One of the most notable ones is the Hunyadi branch under E-CTS9320 (which has a couple of smaller potential Vlach subcaldes too IMHO):

Welcome to FamilyTreeDNA Discover

Discover more about your paternal ancestry and join in on the research!

discover.familytreedna.com

E-V13 is not that interesting for me in this case as it is for sure the majority of the mentioned E1b1b. Way more interesting and informing would be the ratio of J2a / J2b2.

 

[Dibran]

That’s the thing that they were tested very broadly and there is no info on deeper clades, like we don’t know anything besides those macro haplogroups designation. That is what I was interested if further info was accumulated years after the testing, as I know that people online dig deeper into the SNP calls.

It's a shame we don't know . I'd love to see more detail project initiatives from Bulgaria, Romania and even Macedonia. Surely they have alot of R1a that hasn't been sequenced much. Especially Romania/Bulgaria when it comes to R1a like R-M458 (L1029 for example).

We don't have many Vlachs in our project. However, if it helps, the first R1a Vlach from Albania in Rrenjet project was WGS and belongs to R-FGC67050 under Z280. He shares no recent matches with anyone until around 1700ybp/4th Century CE. Many of the others are other lines (like I-Y3120 and I1-M253, E-V13 etc).

Perhaps some Vlachs from Romania/Bulgaria carry R-FGC67050.

https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-FGC67050/

 

[Marcthegenealogist]

Bosch et al. (2005) posit the following theories regarding the possible origins of the Vlach:
1. Latinized Greeks
2. Descendants of Dacians who lived north of the Danube
3. Descendants of Thracians who lived south of the Danube

I'd say that a more likely case is Latinized Illyrians, they just got Hellenized later on, so a more conclusive answer would be Romano-Illyrian-Greeks due to the presence of some E-V13 samples, that haplogroup being heavily associated with Illyria.

 

[Riverman]

I'd say that a more likely case is Latinized Illyrians, they just got Hellenized later on, so a more conclusive answer would be Romano-Illyrian-Greeks due to the presence of some E-V13 samples, that haplogroup being heavily associated with Illyria.

J-L283 is associated with Illyrians, E-V13 is associated with Daco-Thracians. Up to this point dozens of J-L283 samples have been found in an early Illyrian context. E-V13 appears only later/in mixed/fringe areas for the Illyrians, like Northern Croatia.
On the other hand, it is the main Daco-Thracian group.

Therefore if Illyrians were involved base, they were coming from the mixed Illyrian-Thracian zone like Srem group and Dardania.
Among Vlachs, J-L283 is nowhere near as important as E-V13, which speaks very much in favour of a Daco-Thracian base.

 

[Marcthegenealogist]

J-L283 is associated with Illyrians, E-V13 is associated with Daco-Thracians. Up to this point dozens of J-L283 samples have been found in an early Illyrian context. E-V13 appears only later/in mixed/fringe areas for the Illyrians, like Northern Croatia.
On the other hand, it is the main Daco-Thracian group.

Therefore if Illyrians were involved base, they were coming from the mixed Illyrian-Thracian zone like Srem group and Dardania.
Among Vlachs, J-L283 is nowhere near as important as E-V13, which speaks very much in favour of a Daco-Thracian base.

Ohh, well in that case wouldn't the Paeonians be a closer match? They lived roughly in the same area as the Aromanians and are believed to be Thracians.

 

[Riverman]

Ohh, well in that case wouldn't the Paeonians be a closer match? They lived roughly in the same area as the Aromanians and are believed to be Thracians.

No, the Paeonians appear to be a different people and by far not as numerous. There is no reason to assume that the Paeonians played a significant part in the ethnogenesis of the Vlachs, even though they might have contributed something.
The main Paleo-Balkan contribution in Vlachs comes most definitely from the Dacians. Even the frequency of V13 branches within the Vlach people is not arbitrary, with E-Z5017 being most definitely overrepresented, which too points to a position between Banat and Oltenia in particular, since Z5017 seems to have been the dominant group in Basarabi, the central Daco-Thracian/South Dacian people along the Danube, close to the Tisza-Danube interfluve.
There are mutiple huge founder events for Vlachs especially with Z5017. By comparison, the most Northern V13 branches seem to have been rather picked up, probably when they crossed the Danube again, and have much fewer Vlach founder events.