Latest Reich talk on ancient Dna

[ToBeOrNotToBe]

That doesn't explain why the women are slightly more eastern throughout. The first eastern males are already at about 60% steppe, while the women are at 75-80%.

That one very high Steppe male sample on the graph - do we have his Y DNA? If it's Z2103 or R1a don't you think that's a pretty big indication

 

[berun]

hocus pocus, Reich magician can provide 100% steppe individuals without CHG

but yes, who was? which sample is?

 

[Pip]

That doesn't explain why the women are slightly more eastern throughout. The first eastern males are already at about 60% steppe, while the women are at 75-80%.

Presumably, the women were more steppic because many of them were of Northern Bell Beaker origin, whereas more of the men might have been descended from the less-steppic primary Iberian R1b population.

There was no need for the men to go all the way to the Steppe to fetch (largely unrelated) steppic wives, when the more steppic women (closely related to them) were already present nearby in other parts of Western Europe.

 

[ToBeOrNotToBe]

hocus pocus, Reich magician can provide 100% steppe individuals without CHG

but yes, who was? which sample is?

I don't think he ever claimed that, the point is just whether R1b-L51 can be associated with the origin of the bulk of its Steppe DNA or not - or whether it picked it up through admixture. If we allow for very strong caste systems, then it complicates things more.

 

[ToBeOrNotToBe]

Presumably, the women were more steppic because many of them were of Northern Bell Beaker origin, whereas more of the men might have been descended from the less-steppic primary Iberian R1b population.

There was no need for the men to go all the way to the Steppe to fetch largely unrelated steppic wives, when the more steppic women (closely related to them) were already present nearby in other parts of Western Europe.

But if there's a pure Yamnayan woman (specifically a woman and not both a pure Yamnayan woman and R1b-L51 male) in France, it pretty clearly points towards her origin in Hungarian Yamnaya. CWC and Northern Bell Beaker don't cut it.

Right now, I'm thinking Rheinish Bell Beakers got the bulk of their Steppe from CWC women, and Eastern Bell Beakers got theirs from Hungarian Yamnaya (like is actually evident from the Hungarian Bell Beaker samples, with the Steppe-rich samples being of Yamnayan Y DNA).

I think L21 and DF27 originally picked up proto-Ancient Belgian from Rheinish CWC, and this language would have been closest to proto-Germanic. U152 to me picked up Italo-Celtic from Hungarian Yamnaya, as proto-Germanic seems to definitely be a CWC language closer in origin to proto-Balto-Slavic than Italo-Celtic, which it isn't closely related to despite both retained archaic PIE features (which I explain away as non-Eastern European CWC wouldn't have been within the linguistic sphere of influence of the Steppe during satemisation).

 

[markod]

But if there's a pure Yamnayan woman (specifically a woman and not both a pure Yamnayan woman and R1b-L51 male) in France, it pretty clearly points towards her origin in Hungarian Yamnaya. CWC and Northern Bell Beaker don't cut it.

Right now, I'm thinking Rheinish Bell Beakers got the bulk of their Steppe from CWC women, and Eastern Bell Beakers got theirs from Hungarian Yamnaya (like is actually evident from the Hungarian Bell Beaker samples, with the Steppe-rich samples being of Yamnayan Y DNA).

The pure Yamnaya woman is in Spain, we don't know the sex of the French Yamnaya samples yet.

 

[ToBeOrNotToBe]

The pure Yamnaya woman is in Spain, we don't know the sex of the French Yamnaya samples yet.

Oh, okay. Any chance she had immediate origins in France (so her husband or whatever would be U152)? If she is most likely associated with DF27 men, then that ruins my hypothesis (of Yamnaya admixture being only in East BBs and East BBs only being U152 (that seems a given))

There were only two contact zones between Steppe cultures and the BB culture afaik - at the Rhine with CWC and in Pannonia with Hungarian Yamnaya. So two different sources of Steppe, two different proto-languages etc.

 

[Pip]

Maybe they picked up Steppe (or at least high Steppe) from Yamnaya or CWC women? As well as IE?

Those women could be CWC women, or Yamnayans diluted with some farmer ancestry.

I don't see any sign of CWC or Yamnaya in Iberian Bronze Agers. The increased Steppe DNA was simply picked up from more steppic versions of themselves in Bell Beaker.

People like ATP3 retreated from Northern Spain only to admix with more Steppe-heavy relatives further North and then return to Spain a few hundred years later in greater numbers. That is what the autosomal data is suggesting.

 

[ToBeOrNotToBe]

I don't see any sign of CWC or Yamnaya in Iberian Bronze Agers. The increased Steppe DNA was simply picked up from more steppic versions of themselves in Bell Beaker.

People like ATP3 retreated from Northern Spain only to admix with more Steppe-heavy relatives further North and then return to Spain a few hundred years later in greater numbers. That is what the autosomal data is suggesting.

So that would put an L51 origin in France with CA depature from the Steppe right? I could go along with that I guess, with U106 picking up proto-Germanic from CWC-derived Single Grave culture and P312 retaining the original L51 proto-Italo-Celtic. It's reminiscent of Manco's Stelae hypothesis.

I just refuse to believe L51 came from Yamnaya or CWC, there's too much Y DNA taken from a large range across both cultures to have not found L51. Plus U106 picking up proto-Germanic from Danish/N. German CWC (Single Grave) fits really nicely, and a CWC L51 origin would ruin that. If all of the above is true (not probable), one of the only mysteries left would be why BBs are Taurid - which is lightyears away from anything originating from the Steppe.

Another complication would be who spread copper metallurgy and social hierarchies, warlike behaviour etc. to areas such as Los Millares, as it surely wasn't an indigenous development. I used to be convinced on R1b-L51, but perhaps it's something Minoan-like (Los Millares was and is to some extent suspected as having direct Aegean origins though a case can be made for Syria-Anatolia).

 

[Pip]

But if there's a pure Yamnayan woman (specifically a woman and not both a pure Yamnayan woman and R1b-L51 male) in France, it pretty clearly points towards her origin in Hungarian Yamnaya. CWC and Northern Bell Beaker don't cut it.

There might well have been an odd Yamnayan or CW insertion here or there; but in the samples I've seen, neither Yamnayan nor CW samples fit at all, neither with Bell Beaker nor with the Iberian Bronze Age.

What does fit with the Iberian Bronze Age is a pretty even mix of early Iberian R1b (essentially Balkanic), German Bell Beaker (more Steppe-heavy Balkanic) and Iberian Neolithic. I cannot see that disease or starvation would have killed off all of the Iberian Neolithics, as Iberian Bronze Age DNA comprises too much of their DNA. If nearly all the Iberian Neolithic male lineages died out, then it would seem to be conflict with R1b people that finished them off, as their autosomal DNA (presumably derived from their females) did reasonably well.

 

[ToBeOrNotToBe]

There might well have been an odd Yamnayan or CW insertion here or there; but in the samples I've seen, neither Yamnayan nor CW samples fit at all, neither with Bell Beaker nor with the Iberian Bronze Age.

What does fit with the Iberian Bronze Age is a pretty even mix of early Iberian R1b (essentially Balkanic), German Bell Beaker (more Steppe-heavy Balkanic) and Iberian Neolithic. I cannot see that disease or starvation would have killed off all of the Iberian Neolithics, as Iberian Bronze Age DNA comprises too much of their DNA. If nearly all the Iberian Neolithic male lineages died out, then it would seem to be conflict with R1b people that finished them off, as their autosomal DNA (presumably derived from their females) did reasonably well.

That sounds like Suvorovo talk to me! They don't seem to have left a trace though, though I suppose that could be explained by lack of numbers (which was the case back then for L51 as can be seen from its phylogeny)

 

[Pip]

So that would put an L51 origin in France with CA depature from the Steppe right? I could go along with that I guess, with U106 picking up proto-Germanic from CWC-derived Single Grave culture and P312 retaining the original L51 proto-Italo-Celtic.

Probably, pretty much.

I just refuse to believe L51 came from Yamnaya or CWC, there's too much Y DNA taken from a large range across both cultures to have not found L51. Plus U106 picking up proto-Germanic from Danish/N. German CWC (Single Grave) fits really nicely, and a CWC L51 origin would ruin that. If all of the above is true (not probable), one of the only mysteries left would be why BBs are Taurid - which is lightyears away from anything originating from the Steppe.

I suspect Chalcolithic Bulgaria was very mixed ethnically, and almost certainly had both steppic and Taurid influences.

 

[ToBeOrNotToBe]

Probably, pretty much.


I suspect Chalcolithic Bulgaria was very mixed ethnically, and almost certainly had both steppic and Taurid influences.

Coon did mention brachycephalic types at the mouth of the Danube during the Copper Age, perhaps that's it.

 

[ToBeOrNotToBe]

Probably, pretty much.


I suspect Chalcolithic Bulgaria was very mixed ethnically, and almost certainly had both steppic and Taurid influences.

On second thought, that would make proto-Italo-Celtic more archaic than proto-Tocharian, but isn't it meant to be the other way round? I know it isn't as obvious as with Anatolian, but I've never heard anyone mention proto-Italo-Celtic being older than proto-Tocharian.

 

[Pip]

That sounds like Suvorovo talk to me! They don't seem to have left a trace though, though I suppose that could be explained by lack of numbers (which was the case back then for L51 as can be seen from its phylogeny)

The traces are only found in Varna and Smyadovo (female and unspecific yDNA R respectively), in Muresului (yDNA unpublished or untested) and in a variety of other Suvorovo sites (untested).

 

[Pip]

On second thought, that would make proto-Italo-Celtic more archaic than proto-Tocharian, but isn't it meant to be the other way round? I know it isn't as obvious as with Anatolian, but I've never heard anyone mention proto-Italo-Celtic being older than proto-Tocharian.

I try to avoid questions of language, which are based on too many unknowables and complexities.

 

[markod]

On second thought, that would make proto-Italo-Celtic more archaic than proto-Tocharian, but isn't it meant to be the other way round? I know it isn't as obvious as with Anatolian, but I've never heard anyone mention proto-Italo-Celtic being older than proto-Tocharian.

I doubt that something like PIC was spoken in EBA Iberia/France/Britain/Ireland :grin: S116 as a whole has but a loose relationship with Celtic/Italic.

 

[ToBeOrNotToBe]

I doubt that something like PIC was spoken in EBA Iberia/France/Britain/Ireland :grin: S116 as a whole has but a loose relationship with Celtic/Italic.

To clarify, I think Italo-Celtic is solely of U152 origin as far as L51 goes, but I mean there could have been para-Italo-Celtic languages that were just replaced by Celtic (or Italic).

 

[markod]

To clarify, I think Italo-Celtic is solely of U152 origin as far as L51 goes, but I mean there could have been para-Italo-Celtic languages that were just replaced by Celtic (or Italic).

Where does that leave Aquitanian, Tartessian, Turdetanian, Iberian etc.?

 

[CrazyDonkey]

That doesn't explain why the women are slightly more eastern throughout. The first eastern males are already at about 60% steppe, while the women are at 75-80%.

Elite females likely mostly mated with elite males, while elite males mostly mated with non-elite females, which would mean that the progeny of the first would be less admixed than that of the second. Individual elite males, due to polygamy, could produce significantly more progeny than elite females.

Selection bias might also have occurred, if only elites were buried in the cemeteries once the "newcomers" gained control. The daughter of an elite male and non-elite "concubine" was much more likely, than a son of the same parentage, to be married off to a less- or non-elite spouse, meaning that she might not have counted as an elite (or eligible for elite burial), while he did.