Macedonians

[Tutkun Arnaut]

what documents and what proves?
all evidences are clear and to one direction.

the rest are in the mind of ..... people

There are so many in English language. (Nicholas Hammond, British scholar and expert on Macedon, "A History of Macedonia" Vol. ii, 550-336 BC)“ . The best one I have read was by a History professor at Columbia University, with a Greek last name. I have forgotten his name.

 

[bigsnake49]

From Wikipedia:

Due to the fragmentary attestation of this language or dialect, various interpretations are possible.^{[10][page needed]} Suggested phylogenetic classifications of Macedonian include:^[11]

• A Greek dialect, part of the North-Western (Locrian, Aetolian, Phocidian, Epirote) variants of Doric Greek, suggested amongst others by N.G.L. Hammond (1989) Olivier Masson (1996), Michael Meier-Brügger (2003), Johannes Engels (2010), and Hatzopoulos (2011).^{[12][13][14][15][16]}
• A northern Greek dialect, related to Aeolic Greek and Thessalian, suggested among others by A.Fick (1874) and O.Hoffmann (1906).^[12][17]
• An aberrant form of Greek, with borrowings from Illyrian and Thracian.^[18]
• A Greek dialect with a non-Indo-European substratal influence, suggested by M. Sakellariou (1983) and Hatzopoulos (2011).^[19]
• A sibling language of Greek within Indo-European, according to a scheme in which Macedonian and Greek are the two branches of a Greco-Macedonian subgroup (sometimes called "Hellenic")^[20] suggested by Joseph (2001), Georgiev (1966),^[8] and Hamp & Adams (2013).^[21]
• An Indo-European language that is a close cousin to Attic Greek and also related to Thracian and Phrygian languages, suggested by A. Meillet (1913) and I. I. Russu (1938),^[22] or part of a Sprachbund encompassing Thracian, Illyrian and Greek (Kretschmer 1896, E. Schwyzer 1959).

 

[LABERIA]

From Wikipedia:

Due to the fragmentary attestation of this language or dialect, various interpretations are possible.^{[10][page needed]} Suggested phylogenetic classifications of Macedonian include:^[11]

• A Greek dialect, part of the North-Western (Locrian, Aetolian, Phocidian, Epirote) variants of Doric Greek, suggested amongst others by N.G.L. Hammond (1989) Olivier Masson (1996), Michael Meier-Brügger (2003), Johannes Engels (2010), and Hatzopoulos (2011).^{[12][13][14][15][16]}
• A northern Greek dialect, related to Aeolic Greek and Thessalian, suggested among others by A.Fick (1874) and O.Hoffmann (1906).^[12][17]
• An aberrant form of Greek, with borrowings from Illyrian and Thracian.^[18]
• A Greek dialect with a non-Indo-European substratal influence, suggested by M. Sakellariou (1983) and Hatzopoulos (2011).^[19]
• A sibling language of Greek within Indo-European, according to a scheme in which Macedonian and Greek are the two branches of a Greco-Macedonian subgroup (sometimes called "Hellenic")^[20] suggested by Joseph (2001), Georgiev (1966),^[8] and Hamp & Adams (2013).^[21]
• An Indo-European language that is a close cousin to Attic Greek and also related to Thracian and Phrygian languages, suggested by A. Meillet (1913) and I. I. Russu (1938),^[22] or part of a Sprachbund encompassing Thracian, Illyrian and Greek (Kretschmer 1896, E. Schwyzer 1959).

Wikipedia is not the best source if you are interested about this topics. This page has been edited many times. If you search on the history of this page you will find this version before being edited:

Ancient Macedonian language
[h=1]Ancient Macedonian language: Difference between revisions[/h] From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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Revision as of 01:18, 25 November 2018 (edit)

[h=2]Classification[/h] Due to the fragmentary attestation of this language or dialect, various interpretations are possible.^{[10][page needed]} Suggested phylogenetic classifications of Macedonian include:^[11]

• A Greek dialect, part of the North-Western (Locrian, Aetolian, Phocidian, Epirote) variants of Doric Greek, suggested amongst others by N.G.L. Hammond (1989) Olivier Masson (1996), Michael Meier-Brügger (2003), Johannes Engels (2010), and Hatzopoulos (2011).^{[12][13][14][15][16]}
• A northern Greek dialect, related to Aeolic Greek and Thessalian, suggested among others by A.Fick (1874) and O.Hoffmann (1906).^[12][17]
• An aberrant form of Greek, with borrowings from Illyrian and Thracian.^[18]
• A Greek dialect with a non-Indo-European substratal influence, suggested by M. Sakellariou (1983) and Hatzopoulos (2011).^[19]
• A sibling language of Greek within Indo-European, according to a scheme in which Macedonian and Greek are the two branches of a Greco-Macedonian subgroup (sometimes called "Hellenic")^[20] suggested by Joseph (2001), Georgiev (1966),^[8] and Hamp & Adams (2013).^[21]
• An Indo-European language that is a close cousin to Attic Greek and also related to Thracian and Phrygian languages, suggested by A. Meillet (1913) and I. I. Russu (1938),^[22] or part of a Sprachbund encompassing Thracian, Illyrian and Greek (Kretschmer 1896, E. Schwyzer 1959).
• An Illyrian dialect mixed with Greek, suggested by K. O. Müller (1825) and by G. Bonfante (1987).^{[citation needed]}

 

[Yetos]

ok

since we have 2019, and archaiology has found many many things.
Linguists have much much more digits/staff/systatics to reject and or to propose and synthsize,

the Makedonian language
is the bellow,

and is also in Hesychius of Alexandreia Lexicon,

Besides if it connected with Illyrian then Dalmatia is a Makedonian word and not Albanian,

So guys, what ever you post and you write, nobody is to take serious,

@ Bigsnake
the mad one, show the drunken one and got feared,

 

[Piro Ilir]

There were many places with similar conditions as ancient Greece, but few (IMO none) of them developed as distinctive a civilization.

Indeed, there's not. Point one if you can. There's not such a right place as Mediterranean basin, and especially Greece for cultural development

 

[Piro Ilir]

Most of the so-called history posted in this thread from the beginning is false. The actual ancient Macedonians mixed with the other Greeks during Hellenistic times. So no "Macedonians" separate from Greeks existed after that. That is indisputable so all the rest is false.

Ancient Macedonians were Hellenised Illyrians. Almost the same was for Mollosians, Thesprotians, Chaonians etc etc.

 

[Piro Ilir]

up to 400 a.d they spoke their language together with Greek. Their language was related to Illyrian and Thracian. There are documents for that. Probably Slavic invasions stopped them from using their language. Even Greek Macedonians today are genetically majority slav

The truth about ancient Macedons it's on the founding myth of their Royal house.

The founders of their Royal dynasty were expatriated from their homeland in Argos, and went leaving among Illyrians, where they founded their kingdom. This is what was claimed by them , when they were finally allowed to participate at the Olympic games.

 

[Piro Ilir]

ok

since we have 2019, and archaiology has found many many things.
Linguists have much much more digits/staff/systatics to reject and or to propose and synthsize,

the Makedonian language
is the bellow,

and is also in Hesychius of Alexandreia Lexicon,

Besides if it connected with Illyrian then Dalmatia is a Makedonian word and not Albanian,

So guys, what ever you post and you write, nobody is to take serious,

@ Bigsnake
the mad one, show the drunken one and got feared,

Ancient Macedons are the same as the modern minority populace of Vlachs and Arvanites. For obvious reasons , they both claim an ethnic Greek affiliation, while they speak a native Albanian and Aromanian language.

 

[markod]

The truth about ancient Macedons it's on the founding myth of their Royal house.
The founders of their Royal dynasty were expatriated from their homeland in Argos, and went leaving among Illyrians, where they founded their kingdom. This is what was claimed by them , when they were finally allowed to participate at the Olympic games.

So you believe one of their claims but not the other? If they were from Argos they were obviously Greeks.

 

[Johane Derite]

So you believe one of their claims but not the other? If they were from Argos they were obviously Greeks.

They were most likely from Argos in Orestea, not peleponnese

Strabo: "And in fact the regions about Lyncus, Pelagonia, Orestias, and Elimeia, used to be called Upper Macedonia, though later on they were by some also called Free Macedonia. But some go so far as to call the whole of the country Macedonia, as far as Corcyra, 327 at the same time stating as their reason that in tonsure, language, short cloak, and other things of the kind, the usages of the inhabitants are similar (That is, to those of the Macedonians), although, they add, some speak both languages. (Geography, Book VII, 8, p. 309)"

 

[markod]

They were most likely from Argos in Orestea, not peleponnese

Strabo: "And in fact the regions about Lyncus, Pelagonia, Orestias, and Elimeia, used to be called Upper Macedonia, though later on they were by some also called Free Macedonia. But some go so far as to call the whole of the country Macedonia, as far as Corcyra, 327 at the same time stating as their reason that in tonsure, language, short cloak, and other things of the kind, the usages of the inhabitants are similar (That is, to those of the Macedonians), although, they add, some speak both languages. (Geography, Book VII, 8, p. 309)"

Your revisionism is getting boring. In the other thread you claimed samples from Kotor weren't genuine Illyrians, now everyone's Illyrian again.

 

[Johane Derite]

Your revisionism is getting boring. In the other thread you claimed samples from Kotor weren't genuine Illyrians, now everyone's Illyrian again.

I said you couldn't create some false transylvanian migration (caucasian ottoman immgrants theory 2.0) theory based on coastal illyrian samples.

Strabo explicitly stated the Iapodes, i.e. the coastal illyrians of Dalmatia/Pannonia (where the DNA samples are from) were a mix of Celt and Illyrian. And since we lack southern illyrian, inland illyrian, ancient macedonian samples, it's just plain false to extrapolate what you were, and shows an agenda to be honest.

As for the source above, its solid, and not from somebody with any connections to Albanians. Its the truth plain and simple, and the most likely variant.


Since you are a serbian diaspora wearing a german flag, I don't understand why you are so invested in the history of Albanians.

 

[markod]

I said you couldn't create some false transylvanian migration (caucasian ottoman immgrants theory 2.0) theory based on coastal illyrian samples.
Strabo explicitly stated the Iapodes, i.e. the coastal illyrians of Dalmatia/Pannonia (where the DNA samples are from) were a mix of Celt and Illyrian. And since we lack southern illyrian, inland illyrian, ancient macedonian samples, it's just plain false to extrapolate what you were, and shows an agenda to be honest.
As for the source above, its solid, and not from somebody with any connections to Albanians. Its the truth plain and simple, and the most likely variant.
Since you are a serbian diaspora wearing a german flag, I don't understand why you are so invested in the history of Albanians.

You're paranoid and the 'source' is worthless. We have samples from three disparate corners of the Illyrian zone now, those are sufficient to make general predictions.

I'm not interested in Albanian history - I'm interested in Illyrian, Macedonian and especially Greek history which Albanians have nothing whatsoever to do with.

 

[Johane Derite]

We have samples from three disparate corners of the Illyrian zone now, those are sufficient to make general predictions.

I'm not interested in Albanian history - I'm interested in Illyrian, Macedonian and especially Greek history which Albanians have nothing whatsoever to do with.

Well thats false. Since Albanian Y-dna has shown continuity in the west balkans for the most part you're now trying to minimize the connection by inferring autosomal shift out of nothing more than an agenda, i.e. damage control.

That you are required to posit two simultaneous migrations, one transylvanian, and one by sea into italy, shows how ad hoc and motivated by an agenda it is, since its just not likely.

I repeat, we lack any samples from illyria proper, inland and coastal, dardania, moesia, macedonia, epirus, etc. Illyrian tribes were in epirus, and according to strabo all the way into macedonia.

 

[markod]

Well thats false. Since Albanian Y-dna has shown continuity in the west balkans for the most part you're now trying to minimize the connection by inferring autosomal shift out of nothing more than an agenda, i.e. damage control.

That you are required to posit two simultaneous migrations, one transylvanian, and one by sea into italy, shows how ad hoc and motivated by an agenda it is, since its just not likely.

I repeat, we lack any samples from illyria proper, inland and coastal, dardania, moesia, macedonia, epirus, etc. Illyrian tribes were in epirus, and according to strabo all the way into macedonia.

So you think Greek Macedonia was Illyrian while Montenegro wasn't? Laughable.

 

[Johane Derite]

Thats a straw man. I think the north west coastal samples cannot be used to extrapolate what inland and south illyrians were like autosomally, since its a zone where Strabo explicitly stated they were "mix of celt and illyrian". Also coasts are more prone to italic autosomal influence.

The suffix -as in names of the old argaed dynasty are Illyrian, not grek. (Tyrimmas).

 

[zanipolo]

So you think Greek Macedonia was Illyrian while Montenegro wasn't? Laughable.

Civitates = census in Roman script
https://www.academia.edu/7540044/Th...ing_indigenous_communities_after_the_conquest

.
57% of Illyrians are of Dalmatian tribes
19% of Illyrians are of Pannonian tribes
14% of illyrians tribes are from northern tribes....liburnian, Iapodes, Histrian, Nori etc
10% of illyrians are from southern tribes, Epirotes etc
.
https://www.mdpi.com/2076-0787/8/1/1/htm

 

[Yetos]

The truth about ancient Macedons it's on the founding myth of their Royal house.

The founders of their Royal dynasty were expatriated from their homeland in Argos, and went leaving among Illyrians, where they founded their kingdom. This is what was claimed by them , when they were finally allowed to participate at the Olympic games.

Simply Ignorance

 

[Yetos]

Thats a straw man. I think the north west coastal samples cannot be used to extrapolate what inland and south illyrians were like autosomally, since its a zone where Strabo explicitly stated they were "mix of celt and illyrian". Also coasts are more prone to italic autosomal influence.

The suffix -as in names of the old argaed dynasty are Illyrian, not grek. (Tyrimmas).

Possible the Balts were illyrians too, or the Thracians?
cause Thracian have -as also


BTW
why Albanian does not have -as?
but -i
Ducagin- i
Kelmend-i
etc

 

[Johane Derite]

Possible the Balts were illyrians too, or the Thracians?
cause Thracian have -as also


BTW
why Albanian does not have -as?
but -i
Ducagin- i
Kelmend-i
etc

The illyrian and thracian languages do have affinities with the baltic languages. Though they are not branches of baltic-slavic.

Albanian, like almost all indo european languages has lost these suffixes,only lithuanian, which is one of the more conservative has saved them.

According to Edward Stuart Mann, Tyrimmas has survived in Albanian "Trim" (Hero, Brave)