Arbereshe(pre 1500 Albanians) Y-DNA Vs (post 1500)Albanian Y-DNA. Big Differences!

the thread becomes again the typical arena,
 
Aspar said:
Where is that RafC work? Are you talking about Argonauts of the Balkans?
Anyway, I wouldn't be so sure about it. Western Europeans in general are huge Greek larpers because of their 'democracy' fetish.
On the other hand, they hugely underestimate the influence of other Balkan people especially during the Roman times.
Once again, it's very hard for me to believe that E-V13 has anything to do with proto-Greeks, that's just wishes of some people.
Don't be confused by modern distribution of E-V13.
So far we haven't found any V13 among the ancient Greeks although the ancient Greeks are some of the most represented in the archeogenetic studies.
I've heard they found couple of R1b among them in the upcoming papers by leaks on Anthrogenica and I haven't heard anything of V13.
On other hand, I have informations that some upcoming papers will throw light upon V13 in the near feature and the Carpathian basin will be very important for this group.
So judging by archeogenetics so far, neither Pelasgians nor proto-Greeks were E-V13. The Pelasgians would just be a mainland version of the Minoans and probably mostly J2a and G, while R1b brought the proto-Greeks.
Anyway, pls share what RafC paper you was talking about.
Click to expand...

No more than ~10 - 15% of Romanians/Vlachs carry E-V13. And much probably up and down Bronze Age subclades. It didn't have strong presence in North Balkans. By guessing South Albania/Epirus - North-Western Greece seems to be the right place to look. Cardium Pottery Culture starting point was Adriatic Balkans, South Albania and Epirus region.
 
Ralphie Boy said:
I don’t think so. Actually a lot of Greeks have tested, and it’s growing, based on results posted in social media, where many can see and share. I think the academic studies so far have established that Greeks weren’t completely obliterated or replaced by medieval invasions. Rather, the invaders likely more or less blended in with pre-existing populations. Studies appear to have discredited the opposite propaganda, that of complete replacement. That may not be sitting very well with replacement proponents, be they Nordicists, Fallmerayer types, etc.
Click to expand...
In some few regions there was a majority replacement like in Macedonia, Attica, Boetia and Euboea but not in all regions.
I believe the Slavs that occupied Peloponesse were like Slovenes/Croats autosomally genetically.
 
Aspar said:
Where is that RafC work? Are you talking about Argonauts of the Balkans?
Anyway, I wouldn't be so sure about it. Western Europeans in general are huge Greek larpers because of their 'democracy' fetish.
On the other hand, they hugely underestimate the influence of other Balkan people especially during the Roman times.
Once again, it's very hard for me to believe that E-V13 has anything to do with proto-Greeks, that's just wishes of some people.
Don't be confused by modern distribution of E-V13.
So far we haven't found any V13 among the ancient Greeks although the ancient Greeks are some of the most represented in the archeogenetic studies.
I've heard they found couple of R1b among them in the upcoming papers by leaks on Anthrogenica and I haven't heard anything of V13.
On other hand, I have informations that some upcoming papers will throw light upon V13 in the near feature and the Carpathian basin will be very important for this group.
So judging by archeogenetics so far, neither Pelasgians nor proto-Greeks were E-V13. The Pelasgians would just be a mainland version of the Minoans and probably mostly J2a and G, while R1b brought the proto-Greeks.
Anyway, pls share what RafC paper you was talking about.
Click to expand...

I agree with Aspar considering also that Proto -Greeks more likely than not came from south Caucasia and not from Carpathian Basin.


Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum
 
Progon said:
No more than ~10 - 15% of Romanians/Vlachs carry E-V13. And much probably up and down Bronze Age subclades. It didn't have strong presence in North Balkans. By guessing South Albania/Epirus - North-Western Greece seems to be the right place to look. Cardium Pottery Culture starting point was Adriatic Balkans, South Albania and Epirus region.
Click to expand...

Romanian/Moldovan E-V13 is 125/862 = 14.5 %. (FTDNA + 7 studies). Plenty of newer arrivals but also plenty of older presence people and most cannot be classified (less likely newer arrivals). Still pretty robust (calculate in heavy Slavic, and strong Germanic influence).
What does Cardium Pottery which is 7000 years ago has to do with the Bronze Age expansion of E-V13. Nothing.. And there is no archaeological evidence for any sort of Neolithic continuity in that region.

As said by RafC E-V13 comes from 1) Cetina (as Dalmatian Cardial remnant that was attested) and Yamnaya Glina III who played part in Cetina formation (E-CTS1273 at least spreading from Glina III-Schenckenberg) or 2) Tripillia (all V13 IE), either way it is very IE (even Cetina is pretty IE). It doesn't and almost certainly won't ever come from anything else.

Also you keep playing percentage game while forgetting that Albanians Gheghs in particular have low Slavic influence
What do you think what happens when you calculate that in and remove Slavs, and then remove the Germanics? Even Ruthenians have strong V13 and strong diversity.. As RafC showed in paper V13 is high everywhere once this is taken into account.
 
Last edited:
Dema said:
Yes but still, they are saying that Ghegs arrived in 15 century AD while these same Ghegs have at least double the amount of main Greek haplogroup, so E-v13.

Majority of Greek E-v13 must be from assimilated Illyrians and later Albanians/Arvanites. Even if its not, how can they be alien when they have double the amount of main Greek haplogroup, if anything they are more Greek then Greeks are. You dont know all the E-v13 clades ancient Illyrians and even Albanians had 1000 years ago. You only see modern result after severe bottlenecks and then expansions.

How do you explain this picture when Albanians have double the amount of main Greek haplogroup and Greek second and third largest groups are R1a and I2a-CTS10228 which are Slavic in origin ?

Where are Greeks in this story ? And even tho i agree with you that real Greeks would have to be E-v13, E-v13 cant be proto Illyrian neither proto Greek. Proto Greek and Illyrian can be only R1b since they are original Indo-European centum carriers. E-v13 and J2b2 also J2a for that matter got indo-europeanised by R1b therefore we cant consider them true proto-Greeks neither proto-Illyrians.

Somehow i had a feeling that i will activate you if i say that E-v13 is Albanian hehe, but you can't deny that there is nowhere in the world E-v13 percentage like in Albanians. Also accompanied with fair diversity. Geographically further from Albanians less E-v13 we find, simple as that.

Just explain this to me ? Why Greeks have only the half of main Albanian haplogroup while the other two of their primary haplogroups are Slavic in origin.... Where are real Greeks ?
Click to expand...

Well in that sense I2a Din are not Slavs and yet they are.. They spread with Slavic migrations (except that Greek clade). But the IE is the one who primarily spread with IE migrations. So J-P58 and J-M205 are not Semitic either because they are not E1b1b?? I saw on anthrogenica few saw problems in that so they tried to make E-M35 as some Nilotic speaking hg originally.. That won't work I'm afraid..

Sure E-V13 is high in Albanians but so is Slavic influence very low.

Another scientific sample, Greeks from Macedonia
E-V13 45/183 = 24.6 %

Few Arvanites only, 2, maybe 3-4 maximum. Remove these R1a and I2a Din's (32) and you get E-V13 = 29.8 %

 Ofc so many other non-ancient Greek hg's in this sample.. Though an exception for Greek Bastarnae I2a Din clade..

About Kosovo sample what was it 45 %. Berisha-Sopi in that sample makes up like 11 % alone whose ancestor lived 900 years ago? And there are other very common Albanian V13 clusters with lower TMRCA, as there is in Montenegrins for example. I talked about Bulgarians and Greeks not having nearly that many recent demographic boom V13 clusters.. Which is ofc consequence of tribal domination in recent centuries but it does also raise E-V13 to a degree.
 
Aspurg said:
E-V13 can hardly be more Albanian in general than Greek because when V13 started expanding if it was anything defined the most likely version is: proto-Greek (among few others ofc)
Click to expand...

And I say E-V13 can hardly be more Proto-Greek than Proto-Albanian. These (>) (<) comparisons are hard to quantify, qualify and are more or less useless.
Why would E-V13 be more Proto-Greek than Proto-Albanian? Then again E-V13 was probably in the Balkans earlier than the use of the terms "Greek" and "Albanian" to begin with. What I mean is that saying, and I quote "E-V13 can hardly be more Albanian in general than Greek because when V13 started expanding if it was anything defined the most likely version is: proto-Greek (among few others ofc)" is disingenuous, since E-V13 predates both Greek and Albanian ethnogenesis, and as far as Proto-Populations go E-V13 was already a component of a lot of Balkan populations by the time we had a consolidated Greek or Albanian ethnos.
 
Aspar said:
Where is that RafC work? Are you talking about Argonauts of the Balkans?
Anyway, I wouldn't be so sure about it. Western Europeans in general are huge Greek larpers because of their 'democracy' fetish.
On the other hand, they hugely underestimate the influence of other Balkan people especially during the Roman times.
Once again, it's very hard for me to believe that E-V13 has anything to do with proto-Greeks, that's just wishes of some people.
Don't be confused by modern distribution of E-V13.
So far we haven't found any V13 among the ancient Greeks although the ancient Greeks are some of the most represented in the archeogenetic studies.
I've heard they found couple of R1b among them in the upcoming papers by leaks on Anthrogenica and I haven't heard anything of V13.
On other hand, I have informations that some upcoming papers will throw light upon V13 in the near feature and the Carpathian basin will be very important for this group.
So judging by archeogenetics so far, neither Pelasgians nor proto-Greeks were E-V13. The Pelasgians would just be a mainland version of the Minoans and probably mostly J2a and G, while R1b brought the proto-Greeks.
Anyway, pls share what RafC paper you was talking about.
Click to expand...

Ofc it is his Argonauts paper. he argued for E-L618/E-V13 -> Cetina -> Bubanj Hum III, Armenochori (Cetina related) spread as being proto-Greek

But now we know Yamnaya Glina III culture played very important part in genesis of Cetina.
So E-Y37092 Cetina , Greekoid in some respects but not Greek proper.
E-CTS1273 Glina III Schenkenberg (Romania) -> Bubanj Hum III, Armenochori etc. So indeed Carpathians should be important for V13.

Of course the question is were these people Greek? That's far more complicated, but in all likelihood at least part of these made up proto-Greeks. And this is where you get some of Greek E-V13 LBA arrivals from.

ofc problem is for some proto-Illyrian conenction. This group of cultures has literally nothing to do with proto-Illyrians (Western Balkans). But ofc it is possible as some authors say that both proto-Illyrians and proto-Thracians came in Late BA..

I mean clearly Albanians hate Greeks, and Greeks hate Albanians. You dislike Greeks.. All that I am interested in here is reconstructing E-V13..

I'm also a bit of a Spartan larper. I do rate them higher than 20 other random ancient tribes put together.. And so do great many people. You won't get any 300 movies about some random Illyrian or Thracian tribe...

One more thing, Syracuse Italians 15/138 = 10.9 % of E-V13.. Can't see Arvanites in this sample.. Now why would Syracuse have more E-V13..

Don't forget also that Greeks founded colonies along the entire Eastern Adriatic sea coast. They literally came to Illyrian backyard.. You should be getting some E-V13 of Greek extraction there too who are today Albanians, South Slavs etc..
 
Aspurg said:
Ofc it is his Argonauts paper. he argued for E-L618/E-V13 -> Cetina -> Bubanj Hum III, Armenochori (Cetina related) spread as being proto-Greek

But now we know Yamnaya Glina III culture played very important part in genesis of Cetina.
So E-Y37092 Cetina , Greekoid in some respects but not Greek proper.
E-CTS1273 Glina III Schenkenberg (Romania) -> Bubanj Hum III, Armenochori etc. So indeed Carpathians should be important for V13.

Of course the question is were these people Greek? That's far more complicated, but in all likelihood at least part of these made up proto-Greeks. And this is where you get some of Greek E-V13 LBA arrivals from.

ofc problem is for some proto-Illyrian conenction. This group of cultures has literally nothing to do with proto-Illyrians (Western Balkans). But ofc it is possible as some authors say that both proto-Illyrians and proto-Thracians came in Late BA..

I mean clearly Albanians hate Greeks, and Greeks hate Albanians. You dislike Greeks.. All that I am interested in here is reconstructing E-V13..

I'm also a bit of a Spartan larper. I do rate them higher than 20 other random ancient tribes put together.. And so do great many people. You won't get any 300 movies about some random Illyrian or Thracian tribe...

One more thing, Syracuse Italians 15/138 = 10.9 % of E-V13.. Can't see Arvanites in this sample.. Now why would Syracuse have more E-V13..

Don't forget also that Greeks founded colonies along the entire Eastern Adriatic sea coast. They literally came to Illyrian backyard.. You should be getting some E-V13 of Greek extraction there too who are today Albanians, South Slavs etc..
Click to expand...

You win dude, your imagination is impeccable... You got me at "Greekoid" xD.
PS: I do not hate Greeks, as you seemed to imply in your comment. Despite having nothing to do with them in at least 7 generations of which I am sure of, autosomally I am closer to Macedonian Greeks than even to Albanians (for what these models are even worth). I am not the type to hate myself or my own kin, and I consider Greeks kin.
tTbdaaw.jpg
MCXC3hp.jpg


View attachment 11984


I am just allergic to bull****, be it invented maps from parapolitikos? or you hinting E-V13 is "Greek". PS: Greeks call themselves Hellas, Greek is a Western popularized word after 19th century to refer to the country/people based on a Latin root. And Hellas and Hellens come from the descendants of Hellen of Troy I hope your logic is able to follow, if it is as developed as your imagination- it should. Do the math mate, you saying E-V13 is "Greek" is a bastardization of a bastardization.
 
PS: Imagine yourself out of these images:

G25 Distance to modern Europeans:

tny8gOH.jpg

EljRd5M.jpg
 
Sorry about my ignorance, but my question it's quite simple and naive: also this Albanian guy here is a 'Greekoid', although he doesnt belong to E-Y37092 ?? https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Y145455*/


Than let's push a little further the imagination, if someday appears a Albanian guy with a TMRCA > 4000 ybp in the same E-Y37092 subclade, should we clasify him as a 'Greekoid' from Cetina ??? https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Y37092/


I dont really know what kind of a genetic impact had the Greek colonies into the ancestors of the Albanians (although it seems that through Linguistic arguments - lack of ancient greek loans compared with the Roman latin ones - we could reach the conclusion that there were a kind of phisycal distance between the ancestors of today Albanians and ancient Greeks !!), but what i know for sure is the fact that the Medieval Orthodox Albanian\Arvanites had a Considerable, Evidenceable Demographic-Genetic impact in the Greek society !!!
 
I am seeing pages of posts which have nothing to do with Arbereshe, and also insults flying back and forth.

Frankly, I don't have the patience to go back and see who started what...

FROM NOW ON, any topic NOT about the Arbereshe, and any back and forth nonsense between Greeks and Albanians will result in posts being deleted and possible infractions.

Can you please stop...you've said it all upteen times...you will not convince each other...the rest of us have heard it more than we cared to...
 
Next will be deletions AND infractions.
 
For those looking at uniparental markers like Y DNA and asserting ethnicity or lack of through them, I thought we established that they are not the best way to determine that. Autosomal markers seem to be the best way to determine if modern populations are descended from certain older ones. Looking at the entire genome is what shows south Balkan populations are substantially descended from regional Neolithic people.
 
Johane Derite said:
Most of r1a and i2a in albanans is slavic origin. The point is that j2a is lower than slavic lineages in all Albanian groups, yet this guy is trying to make a fantasy world where it was dominant 500 years ago..
Click to expand...

Do you know the split for R1a, however? Non-Slavic R1a might be older in the Balkans as well as Greece, although I make no claims about the frequency.

I vaguely recall there's little Slavic R1a in Greece and not much R1a at all, but what exists is more often Z-93. Is that correct for Albania as well?

Also, what is the frequency for the Slavic I2a in mainland Greece versus Albania per population, i.e. percentages of all men not raw numbers?

Plus, I'm waiting for you to show me what this has to do with the Arbereshe.

You'd better have an answer, because I specifically told everyone to keep this thread on topic. Everyone else has an infraction. Show me the relevance or you get one too.

And you, Mr. Wise*** Archetype...you think I have nothing to do all day but read post after post of this moron battle between Greeks and Albanians? If someone is not following warnings, COMPLAIN, so I know it.
 
The thread title is Arberesh vs Albanian Y-DNA "BIG DIFFERENCE". The only difference is that Arberesh have italian y-dna branches, meaning they mixed with italians, which is unsurprising, other than that they are the same ratiowise as Tosk Albanians.
 
So you have no data, it's all conjecture, and none of it really has nothing to do with the Arbereshe.

You get an infraction too.

Do some of you wish to be banned? If you think, Greek or Albanian, that you're going to start ruining thread after thread again, you're mistaken.

Am I clear, everyone?
 
According to the “Mediterranean continuum” study, Arberesh are more northern-shifted than Sicilians and south Italians (SSI), island Greeks and Italian Greek speakers, and western toward northern Italy compared with Albanians. They are closer to Albanians (particularly Ghegs) than the aforementioned groups.

Most of the mainland Greeks are a bit more southern-shifted (and eastern) toward Crete and Aegean islands than Albanians, specifically Ghegs and Tosks. On a southern plane, Greeks are almost intermediate between SSI and Italian Greek speakers and Albanians.

https://static-content.springer.com...4/MediaObjects/41598_2017_1802_MOESM1_ESM.pdf

Other Balkan populations are outside and to the northeast of the Mediterranean continuum. This- and other studies may or may not act as proxies for a direct Greek-Balkan Slav comparison that’s missing from the Peloponnesian Greek study. The data indicate that they don’t cluster together.

Maybe if we focus too much on uniparental markers, we lose sight of the forest for the trees.
 
Last edited:
The Arbereshe seem to be on the same southern plane as mainland Greeks, in the study supplementals I posted above. They are both between the Aegean Greek islands, SSI and Italian Greek speakers to the south and Albanians to the north. In one of the PC analyses, they cluster together. Did the Greek stopover before the move to Italy/Sicily effect this change? It seems that they may have been pulled westward by Italy/Sicily.
 
I don't really think J2-M205 has anything to do with Semitic speaking people.

Original Semitic people were E-M35/E-M78 carriers who Semiticized J1 carriers. These two are the main male lines of Proto-Semitic/Semitic people.

As far as Arberesh are concerned they look like Italian shifted Tosk Albanians. Which make sense. All the other bullshit stuff Gheg invasion and other fantasy are low-level propaganda.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

This thread has been viewed 51371 times.

Back
Top