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Genetic Origins of Minoans and Mycenaeans

Ralphie Boy said:
I was surprised Pontic Greeks plot so far away from Mycenaeans, even farther than mainland Greeks. I assumed because they have archaisms in their dialects, from ancient Greek, they would be closer to Mycenaeans. I thought they’d be less shifted because they didn’t have the Slavic invasions. The Pontics seem to genetically resemble their neighbors.
Click to expand...
Pontic Greeks are similar to modern Lazes but not identical, they can be modelled as Laz plus 10-15% Ionic. We need samples right before the Greek colonization though to be sure.
 
ihype02 said:
Pontic Greeks are similar to modern Lazes but not identical, they can be modelled as Laz plus 10-15% Ionic. We need samples right before the Greek colonization though to be sure.
Click to expand...

I expect that same percentage plus or minus 5% to be true for most Greek colonies throughout the Med and Black Seas.
 
bigsnake49 said:
I expect that same percentage plus or minus 5% to be true for most Greek colonies throughout the Med and Black Seas.
Click to expand...
I agree, with the exception of southern Italy though. The reason it was named Magna Graecia was because more Greeks lived there in antiquity than in Greece itself.
 
Demetrios said:
I agree, with the exception of southern Italy though. The reason it was named Magna Graecia was because more Greeks lived there in antiquity than in Greece itself.
Click to expand...

While I agree with you as far as antiquity, I am not so sure about the current Southern Italians. I think the percentage of ancient Greek heritage has been diluted. It would be wonderful if there are any DNA studies among the Griko people as far as whether their heritage is from the Ancient Greek colonies or the Byzantines or a combination.
 
bigsnake49 said:
While I agree with you as far as antiquity, I am not so sure about the current Southern Italians. I think the percentage of ancient Greek heritage has been diluted. It would be wonderful if there are any DNA studies among the Griko people as far as whether their heritage is from the Ancient Greek colonies or the Byzantines or a combination.
Click to expand...
There is this following paper that studied the Griko (among others), "Ancient and recent admixture layers in Sicily and Southern Italy trace multiple migration routes along the Mediterranean (2017)", and included them within a broader "Mediterranean genetic continuum". Namely, "In particular, Sicily and Southern Italy (SSI) appear as belonging to a wide and homogeneous genetic domain, which is shared by large portions of the present-day South-Eastern Euro-Mediterranean area, extending from Sicily to Cyprus, through Crete, Aegean-Dodecanese and Anatolian Greek Islands. We will refer to this domain as ‘Mediterranean genetic continuum’.". Griko populations (GRI_BOV, GRI_CAL, GRI_SAL) also clustered with the rest of Sicilians and southern Italians on PCA.

PCA-2.png


Other than that, i can't recall how they model with the Mycenaean samples. But i do know that many cluster with them. Also, the other day i ran a western Sicilian's Dodecad K7b coordinates against the ancient Aegean samples. Here are his results.

Andreas-Dodecad-K7b.png
 
Demetrios said:
There is this following paper that studied the Griko (among others), "Ancient and recent admixture layers in Sicily and Southern Italy trace multiple migration routes along the Mediterranean (2017)", and included them within a broader "Mediterranean genetic continuum". Namely, "In particular, Sicily and Southern Italy (SSI) appear as belonging to a wide and homogeneous genetic domain, which is shared by large portions of the present-day South-Eastern Euro-Mediterranean area, extending from Sicily to Cyprus, through Crete, Aegean-Dodecanese and Anatolian Greek Islands. We will refer to this domain as ‘Mediterranean genetic continuum’.". Griko populations (GRI_BOV, GRI_CAL, GRI_SAL) also clustered with the rest of Sicilians and southern Italians on PCA.

PCA-2.png


Other than that, i can't recall how they model with the Mycenaean samples. But i do know that many cluster with them. Also, the other day i ran a western Sicilian's Dodecad K7b coordinates against the ancient Aegean samples. Here are his results.

Andreas-Dodecad-K7b.png
Click to expand...
Oh, I totally agree that the Griko people would cluster with the Southern Italians and the Sicilians would cluster with Minoans and Myceneans. A bit removed from the Modern Greeks. Of course we also need classical Greece samples to compare them with.
 
bigsnake49 said:
While I agree with you as far as antiquity, I am not so sure about the current Southern Italians. I think the percentage of ancient Greek heritage has been diluted. It would be wonderful if there are any DNA studies among the Griko people as far as whether their heritage is from the Ancient Greek colonies or the Byzantines or a combination.
Click to expand...

I think it's more diluted in mainland Greeks than in Southern Italians.
 
Dimanto Ruben said:
I think it's more diluted in mainland Greeks than in Southern Italians.
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Well, that is a known fact obviously. Mainland Greeks don't cluster with Mycenaeans for example despite being relatively close. Southern Italians, Sicilians, and Ashkenazim Jews tend to do though. The aforementioned paper had also the following to say, "Population expansions during the Middle Ages, for instance those related to the Slavic migrations, could have affected Albania and Continental Greece at least indirectly as a result of subsequent population contacts. We may therefore hypothesize that present-day mainland Greek and Southern Balkan populations detached from a genetic background originally shared with the ‘Mediterranean genetic continuum’ (i.e. Southern Italy and the Mediterranean Greek-islands) after these recent events which interested the Balkan Peninsula in historical times.".
 
Yes, I've read the paper already.

Demetrios said:
Well, that is a known fact obviously. Mainland Greeks don't cluster with Mycenaeans for example despite being relatively close. Southern Italians, Sicilians, and Ashkenazim Jews tend to do though. The aforementioned paper had also the following to say, "Population expansions during the Middle Ages, for instance those related to the Slavic migrations, could have affected Albania and Continental Greece at least indirectly as a result of subsequent population contacts. We may therefore hypothesize that present-day mainland Greek and Southern Balkan populations detached from a genetic background originally shared with the ‘Mediterranean genetic continuum’ (i.e. Southern Italy and the Mediterranean Greek-islands) after these recent events which interested the Balkan Peninsula in historical times.".
Click to expand...
 
Dimanto Ruben said:
I think it's more diluted in mainland Greeks than in Southern Italians.
Click to expand...

True. Genetic closeness is seen between Greece, Sicily and south Italy in multiple studies, implying old genetic relationships. A few mainland Greeks overlap with Sicilians and a number are close to them. Would be very surprised to see Archaic through Medieval Greeks being very far outside of the area encompassing Mycenaeans, Minoans and modern people of the aforementioned regions.
 
My distances vs. Mycenaean and Minoans using, Dodecad 12B, Eurogenes K13 and K15. I get closer distances to the Mycenaean Greeks so my results are in line with what all the extant studies have demonstrated.

[TABLE="class: distances"]
[TR]
[TH="align: right"]Distance to:[/TH]
[TH="align: left"]PalermoTrapani[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF7500, align: right"]11.55112549[/TD]
[TD]I9041_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Galatas_Apatheia_Peloponnese[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF5B00, align: right"]12.32164762[/TD]
[TD]I9123_Bronze_Age_Armenoi_Crete[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF5600, align: right"]12.46343452[/TD]
[TD]I9010_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Galatas_Apatheia_Peloponnese[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF2F00, align: right"]13.62262456[/TD]
[TD]I9033_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Peristeria_Tryfilia_Peloponnese[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0047, align: right"]17.08555823[/TD]
[TD]I9006_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Agia_Kyriaki_Salamis[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0071, align: right"]18.31004369[/TD]
[TD]I9005_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Hagios_Charalambos_Cave_Lasithi_Crete[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0084, align: right"]18.89246675[/TD]
[TD]I9131_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Moni_Odigitria_Heraklion_Crete[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF00D3, align: right"]21.19933961[/TD]
[TD]I9129_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Moni_Odigitria_Heraklion_Crete[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF00DB, align: right"]21.43358346[/TD]
[TD]I9130_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Moni_Odigitria_Heraklion_Crete[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #3400FF, align: right"]28.46546328[/TD]
[TD]I9128_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Moni_Odigitria_Heraklion_Crete[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]30.89318048[/TD]
[TD]I9127_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Moni_Odigitria_Heraklion_Crete[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

[TABLE="class: distances"]
[TR]
[TH="align: right"]Distance to:[/TH]
[TH="align: left"]PalermoTrapani[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF9E00, align: right"]10.35133325[/TD]
[TD]I9041_Greece_Mycenaean_3250_ybp[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF9900, align: right"]10.48649608[/TD]
[TD]I9033_Mycenaean_1352_bc_M_[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0100, align: right"]14.96395001[/TD]
[TD]I9010_Mycenaean_1351_bc_[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0013, align: right"]15.57234086[/TD]
[TD]I9006_Greece_Mycenaean_3287_ybp[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0042, align: right"]16.94984071[/TD]
[TD]I9005_Greece_Minoan_Lassithi_4000_ybp[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]



[TABLE="class: distances"]
[TR]
[TH="align: right"]Distance to:[/TH]
[TH="align: left"]PalermoTrapani[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF9A00, align: right"]10.46008604[/TD]
[TD]Mycenaean_I9041[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF4900, align: right"]12.84337962[/TD]
[TD]Mycenaean_I9006[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0048, align: right"]17.12174057[/TD]
[TD]Minoan_Lasithi_I9005[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF00C6, align: right"]20.82740022[/TD]
[TD]Minoan_Lasithi_I0074[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #F600FF, align: right"]22.76743288[/TD]
[TD]Minoan_Lasithi_I0073[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
 
Demetrios: Thanks my friend for reminding me about my Dodecad K7 distances, I went back to that thread and saved the Ancient Greek Dodecad K7 coordinates that Jovialis provided.

Cheers
 
Palermo Trapani said:
Demetrios: Thanks my friend for reminding me about my Dodecad K7 distances, I went back to that thread and saved the Ancient Greek Dodecad K7 coordinates that Jovialis provided.

Cheers
Click to expand...
Yeah, no worries. By the way, it seems the Mycenaean samples through Dodecad K7b give good distances for the Greek average as well, https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/34414-Genetic-Origins-of-Minoans-and-Mycenaeans/page81?p=601069&viewfull=1#post601069. I also like the modern distances it gives.

Greek-Dodecad-K7b.png
 
Does anyone know what is the number of Sicilians included in the Iberian paper?
From Eurogenes Calculators which one is the best?
 
ihype02 said:
Does anyone know what is the number of Sicilians included in the Iberian paper?
From Eurogenes Calculators which one is the best?
Click to expand...
The modern samples used in the "The genomic history of the Iberian Peninsula over the past 8000 years (2019)" paper are taken from the "Ancient human genomes suggest three ancestral populations for present-day Europeans (2014)", therefore there were 11 Sicilian samples as this following table attests, https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4170574/table/T2/?report=objectonly, as well as page 60 of its supplementary information.
 
ihype02 said:
Does anyone know what is the number of Sicilians included in the Iberian paper?
From Eurogenes Calculators which one is the best?
Click to expand...

For me Eurogenes K13 but I have no idea about the rest of the people.
 
ihype02 said:
Does anyone know what is the number of Sicilians included in the Iberian paper?
From Eurogenes Calculators which one is the best?
Click to expand...
Forgot to answer the second question. I personally like Eurogenes K13 and Dodecad K7b (as aforementioned).
 
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