J2b2-L283 (proto-illyrian)

[Polska]

Polska what black magic is this? You always come up with the best news. These questions I have been bugging members on forums for ages and all of a sudden, as in other instance the answer pops up in your posts.

First:

”The Genetic History of the Southern Arc: A Bridge Between West Asia & Europe”

This will likely answer the question Gurier pointed out. An interesting thing is if there will be samples from Troy .

" Iosif Lazaridis, David Reich, and Henry Shephard. Evidently Henry Shephard is “Mr Moldova”"

This is like the avengers of genetic history ensemble. = ) Moldovan sample autosomal DNA will prove a lot in this! If it is indeed there.

"Also, there is some very ancient R1b Z2103 from Dagestan rumored to be in this paper. The author works for Max Planck."

Maybe Anthony was not wrong after all?! And maybe Provyn can also be right?

This is all very exiting. They are doing peer reviewing for the 2nd month now? Sounds like its quite a substantial paper as far as novelty goes, since if it was in line with previous studies the peer review surely would have been finished by now.

Edit:

PS... Budjak also known as Bessarabia ?



For reference the house of the Draculesti (Vlad Tepes, Vlad the Impaler) was an offspring of the house of Basarab.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_of_Basarab

This Budjak Culture started to spread around 3500BC and is considered the Balkan Carpathian variant of the Yamnaya Culture. So basically western Yamnaya. The Basarabi cluster underneath L283 Z1043 would be much younger, so some sort of back migration by a younger lineage in this case.

According to Science Magazine, an article is typically published “4 to 8 weeks after acceptance”, so it sounds like it should be close if it was submitted in September. Agree with you on the Troy samples!

 

[Polska]

Hopefully, but I have the bad feeling that[/COLOR] if the "spoiled" Moldovan sample pops out, it will be from a late Trypillian site with mixed ancestry (Old-Europe/Steppe) , it would be too easy to get a clear solution.

I agree with you here. Definitely a possibility.

 

[Polska]

Possibly you are right, but another possibility is that it was only present in the Eastern groups of Celts and so few made it further West, initially, that you need thousands of samples or good luck to find it.

E-V13 won't be as rare, but still concentrated in Alpine Celts and Celticised populations from the Alpine-Danubian and North Italian area. As usual, a major problem for various groups in this context is that they cremated their dead at different times.



That's part of the Unterkrainer group of Eastern Hallstatt, which practised the Illyrian burial rite and social rules. To their North were Daco-Thracian/Basarabi dominated groups, like Kalenderberg and Fr�g, but also further up the Danube and towards Czechia. This was how E-V13 spread, whereas other groups being more Illyrian influenced, like this individual from the Unterkrainer group.

Moldovan Scythians seem to be mostly the result of Daco-Thracians just adopting Scythian ways (Geto-Scythians) and they being heavily shifted towards BGR_EBA. There is however one outlier which plots more similar to the more G�va derived Thraco-Scythians in Hungary and the mixed Ukrainian ones. So there most likely was a "nest" of Southern backmigration through Psenichevo-Basarabi in Moldova. Both to their left (Pannonia) and their right (Ukraine) the mixed Daco-Thracian and Scythian groups look more like mixtures of F�zesabony-Kyjatice-G�va, but in that area, BGR_EBA/Aegean ancestry seems to have played a role.
Its unresolved whether that is how Daco-Thracians generally looked, or just the Eastern group. Because I recently read that the Channelled Ware in Bulgaria being directly connected to the Northern G�va-Holigrady groups, not Belegis II-G�va in the Tisza-Danubian sphere (Western Romania-Eastern Hungary-Serbia and downwards to Greece with expansion grups). So the Eastern Channelled Ware network connected Bulgaria with Moldova.
Let's see how this pans out.

Talk to us some more about this Unterkrainer Group. I googled “Unterkrainer” and all I see are dudes wearing lederhosen. Would Unterkrainer be associated with either southern Bell Beakers or Unetice?

 

[Hawk]

Talk to us some more about this Unterkrainer Group. I googled “Unterkrainer” and all I see are dudes wearing lederhosen. Would Unterkrainer be associated with either southern Bell Beakers or Unetice?

I believe more like southern part of Ljubljana and South-Eastern Slovenia.

Unterkrain / Dolenjska umfasst

• den südlichen Teil des Bezirkes Ljubljana
• Novo mesto (Rudolfswerth)
• Kočevje (Gottschee)
• Krško (Gurkfeld)

 

[Riverman]

Talk to us some more about this Unterkrainer Group. I googled “Unterkrainer” and all I see are dudes wearing lederhosen. Would Unterkrainer be associated with either southern Bell Beakers or Unetice?

Here is a map which shows you some of the Eastern Hallstatt groups:

Those being already known from ethnographical descriptions being named after the tribe, those which are unknown after sites and regions, like the "Unterkrainische Gruppe", which being directly connected to the Illyrian group to their South and East, whereas Fr?g and Kalenderberg, as well as most to the North, being more oriented towards Basarabi (Daco-Thracians), Urnfield Pannonians and Para-Celtic groups to the West. Novo Mesto is right in their territory, that of the Unterkrainer.

The groups to the North connected Daco-Thracians/Pannonians with the Celts, you can read up on it here for example:
https://www.researchgate.net/public...um_und_Mitteleuropa_wahrend_der_Hallstattzeit

and here:
https://www.zobodat.at/pdf/Rudolfinum_2002_0035-0064.pdf

The unterkrainische Gruppe was more clan based, less complex, less socially stratified than Hallstatt and Basarabi, which clearly follow the same tradition - and burn their dead too, which Illyrians proper did rarely.

Zugleich lie? man von der Brandbestattung ab und ?bte nunmehr die K?rperbestattung. Und im Grab- brauch wird der sippenhafte Charakter der Gesellschafts- struktur der Krainischen Hallstattkultur besonders deut- lich. Riesige Grabh?gel wurden n?mlich bis zu 300 Jahre lang von einzelnen Familien belegt. Sie enthielten bis zu 400 Gr?ber.
So lie? sich die Gemeinschaft bis ?ber den Tod hinaus be- wahren. Darin zeigt sich eine hohe Bedeutung der Ab- stammung. Weil im Gegensatz zu K?rnten oder zur Stei- ermark herausragende Gr?ber fehlen, wird an eine olig- archische Gesellschaftsstruktur gedacht, in der die An- f?hrer einzelner Familien (patres familias) das Sagen hatten. Da sich ?hnlicher Grabbrauch in Dalmatien, Albanien und Makedonien abzeichnet, darf man von einem illyrischen Grabbrauch sprechen.

The Unterkrainer group also had some close ties to the Etruscans:

Im Laufe des 7. Jahrhunderts v. Chr. verf?gten die Anf?hrer ?ber bronzene Panzer und italische Helme (sog. Helme mit zusammengesetzter Kalotte), so dass sich ein enger Kontakt zu den Etruskern abzeichnet; sie sind nach wie vor beritten. Im Laufe des 6. Jahrhunderts v. Chr. verschwand das Pferdegeschirr aus den Gr?bern, neue etruskische Helme (sog. Doppelkammhelme) tauchten auf

So they got more influences from Etruscans, Veneti and Italics, rather than Celts (proper), which appeared much later. There were no real Celtic tribes anywhere around them in earlier Hallstatt, this changes fundamentally with La Tene.

The Celts ended their culture:

Keltische Elemente tauchen im 5. und 4. Jahrhundert v. Chr. nur vereinzelt und isoliert auf. Zu einem Wandel der Sachkultur kam es erst mit dem Zuzug von donaul?ndischen Kelten um 300 v. Chr., womit die Hall- stattkultur nach ?ber 500 Jahren ein Ende fand. In Sticna wurde die Wehrmauer geschleift, und man gab die Sitte auf, die Toten in Grabh?geln zu bestatten.

https://www.zobodat.at/pdf/Rudolfinum_2002_0035-0064.pdf

In Fr?g, like in the Thracians and Dacians, as well as Iranians and Indians, there was occasionally the custom of widow death, as well as a dominance of cremation. The society was much more stratified, with retinues of warriors around a high elite. Completely different cultural formation in comparison to the Unterkrainer group. I expect Fr?g and Kalenderberg to have much more E-V13 than J-L283 and the opposite - like already proven, for the Unterkrainer group with their Illyrian relations.
Its really interesting how, probably, both culturally and ethnically, within a rather limited area, two completely different cultural formations existed (Fr?g vs. Unterkrainische group) in Eastern Hallstatt. The differences were really huge and the connections quite different. How different they were genetically will be seen, but I would really wonder if in a larger sample from Fr?g or post-Fr?g (since they cremated) would be no E-V13, because the influx from Daco-Thracian areas seems to have been significant.

As for the origin of the Unterkrainische group: Mostly from Middle Danubian Tumulus culture (Alpine-Danubian zone) and Middle Danubian Urnfielders (same). So basically local Balkan people with Southern German-Austrian Bell Beakers on top.

If you can't read German, just use Google translate.

 

[Galaxy Overlord]

On top of the modern distribution, there is the moment at which the concerned descendents started to diverge.
To experience an intense diversification sequence, an haplogroup needs to be carried by an expanding population, nearly ~20 branches expanded from Z631 around 800BC, that's a lot.

A later diffusion, for entropic consideration, cannot separate haplogroups (beyond founder-effects). Thus, if the dispersion happens later than the diversication, diversified haplogroups should be observed in all locations where the later diffusion happened.

This is basically what is seen for R-L51, descendants are geographically separated because diversification happened at the same time than the expansion.

Thus, for these reasons a dispersion of J-Z631 with the Hallstatt/La Tène populations seems fairly likely.
A diffusion by the roman empire didn't makes much sense in terms of spatial distribution and moment when the haplogroup started to spread.
For sure, Romans induced a lot a movement inside the empire and affected the haplogroup distribution, but it seems unsufficient to me to explain the modern distribution.

The modern dispersion does appear to correlate with the Roman Borders and settlements along the Rhein River, with a large amount of samples being found there.

 

[Polska]

Here is a map which shows you some of the Eastern Hallstatt groups:

Those being already known from ethnographical descriptions being named after the tribe, those which are unknown after sites and regions, like the "Unterkrainische Gruppe", which being directly connected to the Illyrian group to their South and East, whereas Fr�g and Kalenderberg, as well as most to the North, being more oriented towards Basarabi (Daco-Thracians), Urnfield Pannonians and Para-Celtic groups to the West. Novo Mesto is right in their territory, that of the Unterkrainer.

The groups to the North connected Daco-Thracians/Pannonians with the Celts, you can read up on it here for example:
https://www.researchgate.net/public...um_und_Mitteleuropa_wahrend_der_Hallstattzeit

and here:
https://www.zobodat.at/pdf/Rudolfinum_2002_0035-0064.pdf

The unterkrainische Gruppe was more clan based, less complex, less socially stratified than Hallstatt and Basarabi, which clearly follow the same tradition - and burn their dead too, which Illyrians proper did rarely.



The Unterkrainer group also had some close ties to the Etruscans:



So they got more influences from Etruscans, Veneti and Italics, rather than Celts (proper), which appeared much later. There were no real Celtic tribes anywhere around them in earlier Hallstatt, this changes fundamentally with La Tene.

The Celts ended their culture:



https://www.zobodat.at/pdf/Rudolfinum_2002_0035-0064.pdf

In Fr�g, like in the Thracians and Dacians, as well as Iranians and Indians, there was occasionally the custom of widow death, as well as a dominance of cremation. The society was much more stratified, with retinues of warriors around a high elite. Completely different cultural formation in comparison to the Unterkrainer group. I expect Fr�g and Kalenderberg to have much more E-V13 than J-L283 and the opposite - like already proven, for the Unterkrainer group with their Illyrian relations.
Its really interesting how, probably, both culturally and ethnically, within a rather limited area, two completely different cultural formations existed (Fr�g vs. Unterkrainische group) in Eastern Hallstatt. The differences were really huge and the connections quite different. How different they were genetically will be seen, but I would really wonder if in a larger sample from Fr�g or post-Fr�g (since they cremated) would be no E-V13, because the influx from Daco-Thracian areas seems to have been significant.

As for the origin of the Unterkrainische group: Mostly from Middle Danubian Tumulus culture (Alpine-Danubian zone) and Middle Danubian Urnfielders (same). So basically local Balkan people with Southern German-Austrian Bell Beakers on top.

If you can't read German, just use Google translate.

Outstanding information here, Riverman. Wow. I was familiar with some of the “Alpine Arch” groups, such as Unterwolbing, Ljubljana, and Rhone Groups that came up when discussing the Mokrin site and the Maros Culture. But this Unterkrainer Group is new to me. I appreciate the reference to the Etruscans and Unterkrainer Group. This probably answers my question as to how at least some L283 spread from the NW Balkans and became assimilated by Etruscans. The timeline even matches up quite nicely with the CTS6190 Etruscan outside of Rome dating back to 700BC. His autosomal profile, from what I can remember, was closest to southern France and northern Italy/NW Balkans, which is very similar to some of these more recent L283 finds from Slovenia and Croatia.

 

[torzio]

Outstanding information here, Riverman. Wow. I was familiar with some of the “Alpine Arch” groups, such as Unterwolbing, Ljubljana, and Rhone Groups that came up when discussing the Mokrin site and the Maros Culture. But this Unterkrainer Group is new to me. I appreciate the reference to the Etruscans and Unterkrainer Group. This probably answers my question as to how at least some L283 spread from the NW Balkans and became assimilated by Etruscans. The timeline even matches up quite nicely with the CTS6190 Etruscan outside of Rome dating back to 700BC. His autosomal profile, from what I can remember, was closest to southern France and northern Italy/NW Balkans, which is very similar to some of these more recent L283 finds from Slovenia and Croatia.

That is phase 2 of Halstatt culture .............

Phase one was from 1000BC

 

[Riverman]

That is phase 2 of Halstatt culture .............
Phase one was from 1000BC

Hallstatt proper begins with 800 BC (HaC):
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hallstattzeit

That is after the collapse of Urnfield and Channelled Ware dominance, with the intrusion of the Cimmerians, which created the Thraco-Cimmerian horizon. From the Thraco-Cimmerian horizon and under the influence of the successors of Channelled Ware, especially Basarabi, Hallstatt emerged. The Thraco-Cimmerian horizon was a real caesura, affecting many peoples all around:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thraco-Cimmerian

Even the Illyrians became affected, including the unterkrainische Gruppe mentioned. They adopted Thraco-Cimmerian gear and status symbols, typical elites on horseback. Just later they changed to Etruscan type elite warriors, while some of the East Hallstatt groups more Daco-Thracian influenced kept more Thraco-Cimmerian and Scythian goods (as well).

 

[Ghurier]

Hi,

The modern dispersion does appear to correlate with the Roman Borders and settlements along the Rhein River, with a large amount of samples being found there.

The moment of diversification of the haplogroup doesn't line-up with romans.
Z631 expanded around 2800BP not 2000BP.

Some subclades may have been "redistributed" by romans, but expansion of this population hapenned earlier.
In fact, there is little expansion of the Z631 sub-clades during roman times.

The "roman" ancient Z631 shows an admixture that is not pointing toward a roman origin. Even if I would be very carefull with ancient sample admixtures (that can be very misleading, especially when based a single sample), it is another hint.

A roman-supported expansion for Z631 doesn't make much sense from what is known yet. But for sure, there was some Z631 guys inside the limits of the roman empire.

G.

 

[TaktikatEMalet]

Should point out that we have more information for some of these samples:
Additionally, I heard there should be around 20 samples from Croatia and a few more from Slovenia included in this paper.

Until we get samples from illyria proper we will keep going around in circles in regards to the lines they carried - we need samples from bosnia-albania region

The j2b l283 found in slovenia was heavily mixed with celtic - this is why a theory of j2b l283 being of italo celtic/tumulus spread still remains, it keeps getting found among that part of the world including etruscans and daunians (ancient italy)

 

[Riverman]

Until we get samples from illyria proper we will keep going around in circles in regards to the lines they carried - we need samples from bosnia-albania region
The j2b found in slovenia was heavily mixed with celtic - this is why a theory of j2b being of italo celtic/tumulus origin still remains, it keeps getting found among that part of the world including etruscans and daunians (ancient italy)

The Middle Danubian TC and UF did reach down to Albania. They were Illyrian proper founders, so was J-L283. However, its possible that within the Illyrian sphere, there was tribal differentiation. Just like Celts different in R-clades and frequencies of minor haplogroups, like I2 and E-V13. So its possible that more Northern tribes expanded/being pushed more southward later. Like the Unterkrainische Gruppe as an example, they are a clearly distinct unity, like a tribe or even people apart, that is fairly obvious. Quite often in Pannonia, when new groups came from the North and East, those settled in Pannonia tried to flee and pushed on towards the south.
So a lot of what is now Albania, especially R-Z2103 and E-V13, but possibly also J-L283, could have been more Northern in the Iron Age. That needs to be tested. But J-L283 and Illyrians go hand in hand, I have little doubts about it. Because you need a fluent continuation from the Unterkrainer to the South, and that won't be the more Bell Beaker lineages, but an even higher frequency of J-L283 which connects them.
Its just possible that further South lived lineages which either didn't make it at all or being reduced in frequency, because of later North -> South migrations.

 

[Hawk]

The Middle Danubian TC and UF did reach down to Albania. They were Illyrian proper founders, so was J-L283. However, its possible that within the Illyrian sphere, there was tribal differentiation. Just like Celts different in R-clades and frequencies of minor haplogroups, like I2 and E-V13. So its possible that more Northern tribes expanded/being pushed more southward later. Like the Unterkrainische Gruppe as an example, they are a clearly distinct unity, like a tribe or even people apart, that is fairly obvious. Quite often in Pannonia, when new groups came from the North and East, those settled in Pannonia tried to flee and pushed on towards the south.
So a lot of what is now Albania, especially R-Z2103 and E-V13, but possibly also J-L283, could have been more Northern in the Iron Age. That needs to be tested. But J-L283 and Illyrians go hand in hand, I have little doubts about it. Because you need a fluent continuation from the Unterkrainer to the South, and that won't be the more Bell Beaker lineages, but an even higher frequency of J-L283 which connects them.
Its just possible that further South lived lineages which either didn't make it at all or being reduced in frequency, because of later North -> South migrations.

Middle Danube TC didn't reach in pure form, but as Koszider hoards: https://books.google.de/books?id=Bv...#v=onepage&q=marija gimbutas glasinac&f=false

 

[TaktikatEMalet]

The Middle Danubian TC and UF did reach down to Albania. They were Illyrian proper founders, so was J-L283. However, its possible that within the Illyrian sphere, there was tribal differentiation. Just like Celts different in R-clades and frequencies of minor haplogroups, like I2 and E-V13. So its possible that more Northern tribes expanded/being pushed more southward later. Like the Unterkrainische Gruppe as an example, they are a clearly distinct unity, like a tribe or even people apart, that is fairly obvious. Quite often in Pannonia, when new groups came from the North and East, those settled in Pannonia tried to flee and pushed on towards the south.
So a lot of what is now Albania, especially R-Z2103 and E-V13, but possibly also J-L283, could have been more Northern in the Iron Age. That needs to be tested. But J-L283 and Illyrians go hand in hand, I have little doubts about it. Because you need a fluent continuation from the Unterkrainer to the South, and that won't be the more Bell Beaker lineages, but an even higher frequency of J-L283 which connects them.
Its just possible that further South lived lineages which either didn't make it at all or being reduced in frequency, because of later North -> South migrations.

Anything is possible since we dont have adna at hand. It could be that j2b l283 was never a popular line in western balkans and went through expansion more recently in small pockets. The lack of j2b l283 in places like bosnia and montenegro today surely show that the illyrians did not carry just this line (if they did at all). Once we get ancient dna from those regions i am pretty sure lines from r1b z2103 for example will show up

 

[Hawk]

Anything is possible since we dont have adna at hand. It could be that j2b l283 was never a popular line in western balkans and went through expansion more recently in small pockets. The lack of j2b l283 in places like bosnia and montenegro today surely show that the illyrians did not carry just this line (if they did at all). Once we get ancient dna from those regions i am pretty sure lines from r1b z2103 for example will show up

To me it looks like Dalmatia and surrounding was full of J2b2-L283 from Early/Middle Bronze Age to Classical Antiquity, it was probably depopulated after: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bellum_Batonianum

So in chronology the reason for not being in numbers today might be:

1. Probably a lot of males after the war with Romans and after the Batos were beaten in war were sold into slavery working in Italian mines.
2. Early Middle Age turmoils culminating with Justinian Plague.
3. Slavic migration

 

[TaktikatEMalet]

To me it looks like Dalmatia and surrounding was full of J2b2-L283 from Early/Middle Bronze Age to Classical Antiquity, it was probably depopulated after: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bellum_Batonianum
So in chronology the reason for not being in numbers today might be:
1. Probably a lot of males after the war with Romans and after the Batos were beaten in war were sold into slavery working in Italian mines.
2. Early Middle Age turmoils culminating with Justinian Plague.
3. Slavic migration

A lot happened between early bronze age to antiquity in that region. Dalmatia was part of cetina which practised inhumation, then it became part of the tumulus sphere and then urnfield - any illyrians living up there would have mixed with celts, the illyrians proper were further south

V13 for example has been found in east spain from 5000bc (part of cardial ware) - Cardial ware also played a role in western balkans and this would have been before j2b l283, what happened to v13 after this?

 

[torzio]

Hallstatt proper begins with 800 BC (HaC):
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hallstattzeit
That is after the collapse of Urnfield and Channelled Ware dominance, with the intrusion of the Cimmerians, which created the Thraco-Cimmerian horizon. From the Thraco-Cimmerian horizon and under the influence of the successors of Channelled Ware, especially Basarabi, Hallstatt emerged. The Thraco-Cimmerian horizon was a real caesura, affecting many peoples all around:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thraco-Cimmerian
Even the Illyrians became affected, including the unterkrainische Gruppe mentioned. They adopted Thraco-Cimmerian gear and status symbols, typical elites on horseback. Just later they changed to Etruscan type elite warriors, while some of the East Hallstatt groups more Daco-Thracian influenced kept more Thraco-Cimmerian and Scythian goods (as well).

Does not matter about "proper".... facts are facts............the fact is the celts entered Noricum 200 years earlier and it is known as the first phase .............clearly , this does not favour some scholars because it puts their "facts" in doubt.

I am amazed how the truth is bent by these scholars to suit their needs

maybe you should read, for the Noricum

THE ORIGIN OF THE CELTS IN THE LIGHT OF LINGUISTIC GEOGRAPHY*
H. Wagner

 

[Hawk]

A lot happened between early bronze age to antiquity in that region. Dalmatia was part of cetina which practised inhumation, then it became part of the tumulus sphere and then urnfield - any illyrians living up there would have mixed with celts, the illyrians proper were further south
V13 for example has been found in east spain from 5000bc (part of cardial ware) - Cardial ware also played a role in western balkans and this would have been before j2b l283, what happened to v13 after this?

Cetina practiced inhumation and cremation on tumuli. It would be great if we know what was their Y-DNA: https://archeorient.hypotheses.org/8247

E-L618 was found in South-East Spain during Early Bronze Age as well among Argaric Culture, very likely again a survivor of Cardial Farmer, to me it looks like E-L618 played a minor role among Early European Farmers, it was present among Cardials but in low numbers, they spiked somewhere else, in Southern Central Europe. Let's see how things work out.

 

[Riverman]

Middle Danube TC didn't reach in pure form, but as Koszider hoards: https://books.google.de/books?id=Bv...#v=onepage&q=marija gimbutas glasinac&f=false

Pure or not, we have direct evidence of Alpine-Danubian elements reaching as far as Albania. The material culture and intrusive character is obvious. However, I never claimed they were pure in any way, which is probably why they got from the Danube down more J-L283 in the first place, because these joined up in the North and expanded rapidly with their newly adopted cultural identity. The function of the Koszider horizon is imho mostly the intrusion of the Middle Danubian TC. Its the evidence for their expansion. What we see afterwards is an interconnected world of the Pannonian-Illyrians. After the expansion.

Gimbutas you quoted makes also absolutely clear that late Otomani-F?zesabony survived in the East and out of which developed Piliny, later Kyjatice and G?va too, with relations to the other Channelled Ware groups.

There is more divergence in the so-called Piliny group in Northern Hungary and Eastern Slovakia where Otomani elements had not yet died out. Hence I shall divide this description into two major groups: i) Tumulus proper and ii) Piliny.

i) = Southern Bell Baker plus J-L283
ii) = Epi-Corded, Yamnaya and primarily Neolithic lineages, among which in any case E-V13 and J2a.

Even she wasn't sure about where to exaclty put them, she just noted their difference from the rest of the TC.

Anything is possible since we dont have adna at hand. It could be that j2b l283 was never a popular line in western balkans and went through expansion more recently in small pockets. The lack of j2b l283 in places like bosnia and montenegro today surely show that the illyrians did not carry just this line (if they did at all). Once we get ancient dna from those regions i am pretty sure lines from r1b z2103 for example will show up

There are already too many Iron Age Illyrian finds to change that. In the upcoming samples from the British paper, R-Z2103 seems to be closer to the Pannonian group of Neolithics, especially E-V13 and J2a, more similar to late Otomani/F?zesabony, G?va-Kyjatice than the Illyrian J2b. Let's see whether they find some E-V13 and other Pannonian lineages in Mokrin-related EBA groups and how this relates to all the later layers. So far they are well-separated for the most part, which is very easy to demonstrate on PCA plots, some of which I posted already. Other related Neolithic lineages (to E-V13, R-Z2103 and J2a) seem to be H, G2 and I2 rather. No J2b was in these clusters. Not even close to the F?zesabondy-G?va-Kyjatice. Kyjatice is the direct descendent of Piliny and Piliny has influence from F?zesabony/late Otomani with Epi-Corded intrusive elements.

 

[Riverman]

Cetina practiced inhumation and cremation on tumuli. It would be great if we know what was their Y-DNA: https://archeorient.hypotheses.org/8247

E-L618 was found in South-East Spain during Early Bronze Age as well among Argaric Culture, very likely again a survivor of Cardial Farmer, to me it looks like E-L618 played a minor role among Early European Farmers, it was present among Cardials but in low numbers, they spiked somewhere else, in Southern Central Europe. Let's see how things work out.

At this point I think its more likely to find J-L283 in Cetina than E-V13, which I never thought of being that likely. Cetina being essentially "Bell Beakerised" Neolithics. That's a possible pathway into the networks of later Tumulus culture, which were of Southern Bell Beakers too.