Genetics confirm migration of White Croats to Croatia

[hrvat22]

Here are autosomal results with Croatian samples (fifteen persons), it is interesting to see how close autosomally Croatians are with southern Poland and southwest Ukrainian Lviv area.

https://i.imgur.com/PLCF8ZL.png

http://oi66.tinypic.com/jiys0h.jpg





City which is supposed to be White Croatian capital Сті́льсько is in Lviv region so this is interesting.

 

[hrvat22]

In a new scientific work about Huns, Avars and Hungars in Hungaria are probably found Dinaric north branches or subclades in branch I-Y3120.
https://yfull.com/tree/I-Y3120/

Probable candidate is in branch I-Y4460 which in the present state(YFull) has a source somewhere in the Ukraine. Ancestor of mentioned I-Y4460 is somewhere in the area of southern Poland age around 2500 ybp (YFull).

If on Azov exist ethnonym Croat from 3rd century it is possible that these ethnonym coming with these peoples (I-Y4460) which would mean that some Croatians exist in south Poland and in that time (2500 ybp).

If we look at public DNA I2a database in the area of Azov exist and people in the branch I-Y4460, and in the future we will know the subbranches and the age of these subbranches and whether they (ancestors) were there in the time of the 3rd century.

I-Y4460

Subgroup: I2a2 'Dinaric' ..L621>CTS10228>S20602/YP196>Y4460>A6105 (I-A6105)
Name: Not Disclosed
Kit Number: 216083
Earliest Known Ancestor: N/A
Marker Location: Zaporizhia, Zaporiz'ka oblast, Ukraine,

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Z...:0xe1878ebf93796a8c!8m2!3d47.8388!4d35.139567

I-Y3118

Subgroup: I2a2 'Dinaric' ..L621>CTS10228>S20602/YP196>Y4460>Y3118 (I-Y3118)
Name: Not Disclosed
Kit Number: 93493
Earliest Known Ancestor: N/A
Marker Location: Советская, Краснодарский край, Россия

https://www.google.com/maps/place/K...102a3a583f19580!8m2!3d45.6415289!4d39.7055977

I-Y3118

Subgroup: I2a2 'Dinaric' ..L621>CTS10228>S20602/YP196>Y4460>Y3118 (I-Y3118)
Name: Not Disclosed
Kit Number: 417289
Earliest Known Ancestor: N/A
Marker Location: Сагуны, Воронежская обл., Россия

https://www.google.com/maps/place/V...102a3a583f19650!8m2!3d50.8589713!4d39.8644374

I-Y3118

Subgroup: I2a2 'Dinaric' ..L621>CTS10228>S20602/YP196>Y4460>Y3118 (I-Y3118)
Name: Not Disclosed
Kit Number: N97830
Earliest Known Ancestor: N/A
Marker Location: Ирмино, Луганская область, Украина

https://www.google.com/maps/place/L...x84dcec6753643bb8!8m2!3d48.574041!4d39.307815

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/I2aHapGroup/default.aspx?section=ymap


Normally in this area exist and peoples with branch I-S17250 and they are also candidates for bringing Croatian name to Azov area but with regard to new scientific work if that is so then in Hungary (10th century) should be and I-S17250 peoples whether they come from direction of Ukraine with I-Y4460 peoples or from Poland.


https://www.biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/early/2019/04/03/597997.full.pdf

 

[hrvat22]

During 10th century according to the Primary Chronicle, Vladimir the Great (958 – 15 July 1015) founded the city of Belgorod in 991. In 992, he went on a campaign against Croats, most likely the White Croats that lived on the border of modern Ukraine.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vladimir_the_Great#Christian_reign


Belgorod is a city in the Kiev area

Bilhorod Kyivsky (Ukrainian: Білгород-Київський; Russian: Белгород Киевский, Belgorod Kievsky) was a legendary city-castle of Kievan Rus' that was located on the right bank of Irpin River (now located in Ukraine) and was mentioned in chronicles.
The city was quite prominent in the 10th-12th centuries but ceased to exist after 1240 destruction of Kiev by the Mongols. Currently there is a small village of Bilohorodka, Kiev Oblast near the location of the defunct city.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belgorod_Kievsky

It is possible that this military campaign from 10th century is associated with arrival of these I2a north branches to Hungary.

Interestingly source of branch I-Y4460* is in Kiev area.

https://yfull.com/tree/I-Y4460/


We have this historical data which are also interesting.

Vladimir's father was prince Sviatoslav of the Rurik dynasty. After the death of his father in 972, Vladimir, who was then prince of Novgorod, was forced to flee to Scandinavia in 976 after his brother Yaropolk had murdered his other brother Oleg and conquered Rus'. In Sweden, with the help from his relative Ladejarl Håkon Sigurdsson, ruler of Norway, he assembled a Varangian army and reconquered Novgorod from Yaropolk. By 980, Vladimir had consolidated the Kievan realm from modern-day Belarus, Russia and Ukraine to the Baltic Sea and had solidified the frontiers against incursions of Bulgarian, Baltic tribes and Eastern nomads

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vladimir_the_Great#Christian_reign

On YFull tree in branch I-Y4460 we have people from Sweden, Finland, Belarus, Russia, Ukraine, Bulgaria(I2a project), Baltic Tribes(Lithuania, Estonia,Latvia(I2a project)), Eastern nomads( Russia, eastern Ukraine, possible Moldavia?) Poland, Greece.

It is possible that this branch I-Y4460 has been expand in the time of Vladimir the Great.

The Rus' provided the earliest members of the Varangian Guard. They were in Byzantine service from as early as 874. The Guard was first formally constituted under Emperor Basil II in 988, following the Christianization of Kievan Rus' by Vladimir I of Kiev. Vladimir, who had recently usurped power in Kiev with an army of Varangian warriors, sent 6,000 men to Basil as part of a military assistance agreement

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Varangian_Guard

Bulgarian and Greek I-Y4460?

 

[[email protected]]

Hi. Speaking about white Croats .My parents are born in Bosnia,Bosanska krajina, Prijedor. My research leads me to migration of my grand grandparents from Lika ,Croatia during ottoman war .My maternal haplogroup is H11a. Tested with 23andme and first I got that moms grand grand mom is from Lithuania and now Poland. Which mtdna are representative whit White Croats? Thanks

 

[hrvat22]

Hi. Speaking about white Croats .My parents are born in Bosnia,Bosanska krajina, Prijedor. My research leads me to migration of my grand grandparents from Lika ,Croatia during ottoman war .My maternal haplogroup is H11a. Tested with 23andme and first I got that moms grand grand mom is from Lithuania and now Poland. Which mtdna are representative whit White Croats? Thanks

I did not follow in detail MtDNA for Croats or White Croats but I can say it's basic MtDNA from which we can not find out too much.

H11a is the oldest found H haplogroup in a European hunter-gatherer (forager), says the scientific report "Genetic History of Northern Europe". It's found in a male individual called Spiginas1 (ca. 4440–4240 BC) from Lithuania who belongs to the mesolithic Narva culture.

https://www.geni.com/projects/H11a-Mitochondrial-DNA/33944

H11 is found across most of northern, central and eastern Europe, but also in Central Asia, where it might have been propagated by the Indo-European migrations (see below). H11a was identified in a Mesolithic hunter-gatherer from the Narva culture in Lithuania

• H11
  • H11a: found across most of northern, central and eastern Europe and in Central Asia / found in Mesolithic Lithuania, Middle Neolithic Germany and Megalithic Spain
  • H11b: found in Poland, Slovakia, Serbia and England

https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_H_mtDNA.shtml

 

[hrvat22]

I started topic "Balkan genetic influence in Slavic peoples"https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threa...Slavic-peoples?p=582082&viewfull=1#post582082 in which I presented information that eastern and western Slavic peoples have a certain percentage of Balkan genetic if we follow public autosomal results. It is my opinion that "Balkans" in fact represents a common source ie White Croatian and some other older tribes in the area of the old Slavic homeland.

It would actually proof that Balkan Croats coming from area of White Croatia and that a good part of Slavic peoples has same source. Since the Baltic genetic also occurs among Slavic peoples it proves Balto-Slavic connection which exists in language.

Baltic and Slavic languages share several linguistic traits not found in any other Indo-European branch, which points to a period of common development.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balto-Slavic_languages

When migrations of R1a peoples in that area (Baltic, Poland etc) are identified then we'll see from where is that connection or "common development".

 

[hrvat22]

Based on SNP analysis, the CTS10228 group is 2200 ± 300 years old. The group’s demographic expansion may have begun in Southeast Poland around that time, as carriers of the oldest subgroup are found there today.

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s12520-019-00996-0

This information is known(from 2020), for now everything points to the fact that White Croatia or White Croats have originate in southeastern Poland. And that this is the place from which White Croats spread towards Roman Dalmatia but also towards Russia, Bulgaria, Greece, etc.

Archaeogenetic data are missing for the final conclusions, but I hope that they will begin to arrive.

 

[kuzmosi]

Well, I think this is true. I'm hungarian, but more than half of my ancestors were rusyns from the northeastern Carpathians. All of my ancestors (rusyns and hungarians too) lived Northeast Hungary, and I don't have any croatian ancestor.

But my eurogenes K13 results:

[TD="width: 40, align: center"]1[/TD]
[TD="width: 220"]Croatian[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]3.12[/TD]

[TD="width: 40, align: center"]2[/TD]
[TD="width: 220"]Moldavian[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]4.93[/TD]

[TD="width: 40, align: center"]3[/TD]
[TD="width: 220"]Hungarian[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]7.46[/TD]

[TD="width: 40, align: center"]4[/TD]
[TD="width: 220"]Ukrainian_Lviv[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]7.51[/TD]

[TD="width: 40, align: center"]5[/TD]
[TD="width: 220"]South_Polish[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]8.39[/TD]

[TD="width: 40, align: center"]6[/TD]
[TD="width: 220"]Ukrainian[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]8.62[/TD]

[TD="width: 40, align: center"]7[/TD]
[TD="width: 220"]East_German[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]10.2[/TD]

[TD="width: 40, align: center"]8[/TD]
[TD="width: 220"]Serbian[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]10.27[/TD]

[TD="width: 40, align: center"]9[/TD]
[TD="width: 220"]Austrian[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]10.72[/TD]

[TD="width: 40, align: center"]10[/TD]
[TD="width: 220"]Polish[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]11.57[/TD]

Mytrueancestry results:
1. Croatian (6.337)
2. Slovenian (8.138)
3. Moldavian (9.529)
4. Austrian (10.47)
5. South_Polish (10.52)
6. Ukrainian_Lviv (11.32)
7. Hungarian (11.50)
8. Ukrainian (12.31)

So according to my opinion: my northeastern Carpathian DNA heredity is very close to the modern croatian, without any modern croatian link. It can only mean one thing. The croatians and the rusyns are also descendants of the white croats, the "harvati" people.

Anyway I determined many Y chr haplogroup of my ancestors and according this, my ancestral hpg-s:

E-V13-CTS9320-Z17107-A19238
E-V13-Z5018-L241-A7065*
I1-L22-FGC14412*
I1-Z60-A378*
I2a-L621-S17250-A1328*
I2a-L621-S17250-A7358*
I2a-L621-S17250-not completed yet
I2a-L621-Y4460-Y3118*
I2a-L621-Y4460-Y3118* (completely different family without any deeper common SNP)
Q-L332-BZ3944*
R1a-not completed yet
R1a-L664-S2866*
R1a-M458-L260-YP415*
R1a-Z280-S24902-YP4090
R1a-Z280-Z92-Y138015*
R1a-Z280-CTS1211-Y35-YP4706*
R1a-Z280-CTS1211-Y35-YP1701*
R1a-Z280-CTS1211-Y35-YP234*
R1a-Z280-CTS1211-Y35-PH864*
R1a-Z280-CTS1211-Y35-Y3219*
R1b-U106-DF98-S22116*
R1b-U106-L48-Z326-S21728*
R1b-U152-S8172*

I think many of them are common in the modern croatians.

 

[hrvat22]

kuzmosi

Yes, when we look at most of autosomal results, many Russians, Ukrainians, Czechs, etc. have the Balkan in a large percentage. In my opinion it is a common White Croatian but also a Proto-Slavic connection. Not a Balkan connection but a common connection in southeastern Poland and southwestern Ukraine. This is also your case.

If we follow your Y dna, you don't really have any direct ties with Croatia(although there are branches of your Y dna in Croatia as well), but obviously you have an autosomal relationship with White Croatia. If we look specifically at yours Y dna markers they show older mutations, ie mutations that migrated earlier from White Croatia and which Croats have less. Y4460 and I-Y4882 Croats have less and this probably shows that migrations started even before main Croatian mutation I-PH908 occurred, and this would be two thousand years ago.

Despite that, your results show the Croatian connection, which is significant, and in this is probable secret of the Balkans ancestry in autosomal results for the Slavic peoples. The common, old link is in proto-Slavic area ie White Croatia.

​

 

[hrvat22]

We have new archeogenetic data which may indicate direction of movements part of White Croats to Croatia. The place of this archeogenetic samples is Pohansko (https://cs.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pohansko_(hradiště).

For now there are several mutations of I2a I-S17250 branch. I-Y4882 I-Y5595 I-A815. These mutations belong to the former dinaric north branches. These branches of I2a predominate in Slovenia and northwestern Croatia. Also and R1a https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y2608/ which exists in Croatia.

This could point to two migrations of Croats. One from the direction of the Czech Republic to Slovenia and northwestern Croatia and for now one from the direction of southern Poland and southwestern Ukraine to Bosnia and southern Croatia. We'll be smarter when start arriving archeogenetic data for I2a branch I-PH908.
It is interesting that De Administrando Imperio also indicates two places from where Croats coming.

White Croats, which was allegedly beyond Bavaria, in both cases would have been much more towards the northwest and far away from Bohemia or southern Poland, where it must be expected the White Serbs and the White Croats lived. Therefore, how was it then possible that the same writer in two chapters of the same work thought differently about the geographical position of the White Croats?

De Conversione Croatorum et Serborum, Tibor Živković, page 112.


There are also some archaeological similarities with the area of Croatia and the Czech Republic.

Close analogies for the cross applique from Ždrijaci can be found only in two localities from the Czech Republic. One cross of the application was found next to the fifth discovered church in Mikulčice, i.e. at the most important Great Moravian site and in the center of the Great Moravian State, in the pre-Great Moravian horizon of the 7th and 8th centuries. Another, typologically identical but fragmentary cross was discovered in children's grave 71 next to the church of St. Petra at the Budeč site

Starohrvatsko groblje na Ždrijacu u Ninu
(The Early Croatian Cemetery at Ždrijac in Nin)
Belošević, Janko
https://www.bib.irb.hr/335372

D. Jelovina classifies this type of spur in the "second group" and marks it as an import, in which he agrees with the opinion of Z. Vinski. Analogies with this finding from the rest of Europe are not known. , nowhere is it about this type of decoration and this way of decorating. It is worth mentioning the princely tombs from Blatnica and Mikulčice which contain spurs with decoration in metopes. "

Early medieval finds from the Brekinjova Kosa archaeological site (results of excavations in 2011 and 2015)https://hrcak.srce.hr/index.php?show=clanak&id_clanak_jezik=307466

Mikulčice https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikulčice

 

[jasho]

I am that Croat at yfull under Y2608*. Origins place in centar of old Croatia. Hope to see if this will match my results?

 

[hrvat22]

Yes, this branch should have connections with the White Croats. It will be interesting to follow development of the situation in your case. When something new occur, report it here.

 

[peloponnesian]

About Croat-Serb border
For example, according to Porphyrogenitus:

From the river Zentina begins the country of Croatia and stretches along, on the side of the coast as far as the frontiers of Istria, that is, to the city of Albunum, and on the side of the mountain country it encroaches some way upon the province of Istria, and at Tzentina and Chlebena becomes neighbour to the country of Serbia.

Curious fact: there is a place called Χλέβενα (Chlevena) in Laconia in the Peloponnese. Unlike other Slavic toponyms this doesn't seem to exist anywhere else in Greece. Close to a village called Ρογκόζενα which is similar to a toponym in Serbia (Rogozna) and also Croatia (Rogoznica).

 

[hrvat22]

Curious fact: there is a place called Χλέβενα (Chlevena) in Laconia in the Peloponnese. Unlike other Slavic toponyms this doesn't seem to exist anywhere else in Greece. Close to a village called Ρογκόζενα which is similar to a toponym in Serbia (Rogozna) and also Croatia (Rogoznica).

Porphyrogenitus mentions Χλεβίανα ie Livno in Bosnia and Herzegovina.

Διεμερίσθη οὖν ἡ χώρα αὐτῶν εἰς ζουπανίας ιαʹ, ἤγουν ἡ Χλεβίανα, ἡΤζένζηνα, τὰ Ἤμοτα, ἡ Πλέβα, ἡ Πεσέντα, ἡ Παραθαλασσία, ἡ Βρεβέρη, ἡ Νόνα,ἡ Τνήνα, ἡ Σίδραγα, ἡ Νίνα·καὶ ὁ βοάνος αὐτῶν κρατεῖ τὴν Κρίβασαν, τὴν Λίτζανκαὶ τὴν Γουτζησκά. Zemlja je njihova podijeljena u 11 županija: Hlijevansku (Hlebiana), Cetinsku(Tzenzina), Imotsku (Imota), Plivanjsku (Pleba), Pesentsku (Pesenta), Primorsku(Parathalassia), Bribirsku (Breberi), Nonsku (Nona), Kninsku (Tnena), Sidrašku(Sidraga), Ninsku (Nina); a ban njihov vlada Krbavom (Kribasan), Likom (Litzan)i Gackom (Goutziska).

Their country is divided into 11 counties: Hlijevanska (Hlebiana), Cetinska (Tzenzina), Imotska (Imota), Plivanjska (Pleba), Pesentska (Pesenta), Primorska (Parathalassia), Bribirska (Breberi), Nonska (Nona), Kninska. Tnena), Sidraška (Sidraga), Ninska (Nina); and their ban ruled Krbava (Kribasan), Lika (Litzan) and Gacko (Goutzisk)

Otherwise it is a political state in the time of the 10th century. Previously ie in other chapters Porphyrogenitus mentions Croats in Ilirik and Panonia.

 

[hrvat22]

As for Laconia, I know for this information about Croatian ethnonym (from a scientific paper).

Hrvatsko je ime u toponimiji potvrđeno i na Ohridu, Prespanu i Bitoli, u blizini Maratonskoga polja i nedaleko od Mikene

The Croatian name is also confirmed in toponymy in Ohrid, Prespan and Bitola, near the Marathon field and not far from Mycenae.

It is interesting that in this area of Greece we have two people with I2a PH908, from Ελλάδα and Geraki(public DNA). One has branch I-Y32084 with a possible cousin in Ukraine Khmelnytskyi Oblast (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khmelnytskyi_Oblast) not so far from southwestern Ukraine, the Lviv, and the probable source-area of the White Croats.

 

[peloponnesian]

As for Laconia, I know for this information about Croatian ethnonym (from a scientific paper).

Yes, there is a Χαρβάτι (Harvati) in Argolis and also in Attica. But for this toponym it's possible it was brought by Albanian-speakers, since areas in both Argolis and Attica were settled by them. Not sure really. Some Slavic words were actually brought by Albanian and Vlach-speakers and you can distinguish them because they don't use the proto-Slavic forms but later forms adopted from South Slavic languages.

It is interesting that in this area of Greece we have two people with I2a PH908, from Ελλάδα and Geraki(public DNA). One has branch I-Y32084 with a possible cousin in Ukraine Khmelnytskyi Oblast not so far from southwestern Ukraine, the Lviv, and the probable source-area of the White Croats.

I2 is very common in mainland Greece, it's between 15-20%. Most of it should be of Slavic origin but I believe it was also carried by Vlachs and to a lesser extend Albanians.

 

[hrvat22]

Yes, there is a Χαρβάτι (Harvati) in Argolis and also in Attica. But for this toponym it's possible it was brought by Albanian-speakers, since areas in both Argolis and Attica were settled by them. Not sure really. Some Slavic words were actually brought by Albanian and Vlach-speakers and you can distinguish them because they don't use the proto-Slavic forms but later forms adopted from South Slavic languages.



I2 is very common in mainland Greece, it's between 15-20%. Most of it should be of Slavic origin but I believe it was also carried by Vlachs and to a lesser extend Albanians.

When you say "it is carried by Vlachs and to a lesser extend Albanians" it is a historical context. I’m talking about the original context ie about the time of Slavic migration to the Greece.

Have these branches of I2a been in Greece since the time of the Slavs or they come with Vlachs or Albanians we will know this in the future when these people research their genetics to the last branches. However, whether they came with Vlachs or Albanians, the source of their branches should still be in White Croatia but younger mutations coming from Albania with Vlachs or Albanians(assimilated into these communities) to Greece.

But as I say we will know this in the future and this is why I am talking about the original state because from their haplotypes I cannot know whether they came with the Albanians or in the 7th etc century with the Slavs.

We must always stick to what we know at the moment. By the way, if you have some scientific papers ie specific informations about migration of Vlachs or Albanians to that area of Greece, you can present it with a translation to see what it is about.

 

[[email protected]]

Hi. I got similar results as you and I’m born in northwest Bosnia(Krajina). My haplogroups are E-v22 and H11a. My moms dad has I-S17250. Whit vahaduo gedmatch toll besides Bosniak-Bosnia and Croatia east i got even Poland- Lemko, Moldova north and Ukraine carphatian. Can this mean that my ancestors are White Croats ?

 

[kingdavid]

E-v22 in bosnia
Interesting
There was a lombard remain
From pannonia late antiquity who was e-v22
Maybe the e-v22 has a connection
To nomads
Or it arrived to bosnia in roman times

P.s
From time to time i look at serbian dna
Forum and in there dna research :
There are some e-v22 cases in some regions
In serbia for example
Maybe you can join the e-v22 dna project :
https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/e-v22/about
A guy named richard is the administrator of it

 

[[email protected]]

Yes,interesting and confusing I’m a member of the group. E-v22 are spread all over the world. How they end up in Balkan’s is not sure. Adriatic Sea with Phoenicians or from the north. That side of my family is yet to be discovered my mother’s fathers side is maybe one easier to entangle.