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J2b2-L283 (proto-illyrian)

ihype02 said:
No E-V13 in Iron Age Illyria yet? There is more E-V13 in Dinaric Slavs and Albanians than there is J2b.
Only one from Neolithic. This can gives us a good lesson what sample bias can do.
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Because E-V13 is not Illyrian?:wondering: (bar some cases/clades of course)

E-V13 is IE proto-Thracian. Not what you and most people thought for years..:kidding:
 
Aspurg said:
Because E-V13 is not Illyrian?:wondering: (bar some cases/clades of course)

E-V13 is IE proto-Thracian. Not what you and most people thought for years..:kidding:
Click to expand...

Why is there more E-V13 than J2b in Northern Italy then?
 
Aspurg said:

Thanks, now its the great time to be active again with all of these samples.

I had most difficulties locating exactly that Hungarian study J2b samples, but I just took a look at my estimates for IA J2b's location and they are Bő and Bük, right next to Gór, so I did pretty well, I wasn't able to tell exactly as there are several different sites there. So I can confirm that the IA J2b sample from the upcoming Hungarian study should be actually this sample as the datation is also very similar 350 BC per their diagram, and here 391-208 calBCE.

As for Mokrin, I know that Serbian Mokrin auDNA samples exist in that study but the Maros site seems very near Szeged, not in Serbia. Also there is an early Maros site and this is the Hódmezővásárhely—Gorzsa-Cukor-tanya, while the 1900-2000 BC site seems to be in Szoreg.

Early Maros site doesn't seem to have Y-DNA but it has something like 90 %+ Yamnaya profile quite different from the rest of Maros. I also identified this site not just by location but also by searching for sites in archeological records, and there is an early Maros site, methodology I used for the others.

And right here in this study we have a new Maros sample that is R-CTS7556+ maybe this one has some downstream positive SNP's, and he is fro mthe site of Čoka. Also there seems to be another R-CTS7556+ sample, in addition to oneI-L161 sample from Mokrin but they were first published here.

It seems going by the early Maros site that some Yamnaya group settled there and assimilated J2b and other locals who indeed might fit into that Suvorovo settlement (I'll have to learn more about that to say more).

Bar the IR2 Mezocsat culture sample, and some earlier Hungarian BB, Nagyrev Y-DNA finds almost all others seem to be new samples.

Also logically, I do not see any R-Z2103 colleagues of that J2b sample in terms of age and auDNA, and considering their dominance there should be at least some. It would be really weird if they choose for their Y-DNA diagram just the J2b sample out of all other Maros samples. This speaks in favor of a new Szeged/Szoreg EBA J2b sample. Maybe that was the hub for J2b within Maros culture. If there is just one Maros find from Szeged and it is J2b, maybe more testing reveals J2b dominance.

Not sure when this study will be out, I think surely next year.
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Solid info, Aspurg. Much appreciated! Either way, it sounds like more ancient L283 from Hungary is on the way, which should be helpful.

I don’t know anything more about the Csongrad Suvorovo folk. The map I referenced is from David Anthony’s book The Horse, The Wheel, And Language. Sort of helps visualize the route the Csongrad Suvorovo took and where they split off, moving to the west of the Cucuteni Trypillia Culture.

I see Szeged/Szoreg are located in Csongrad County, Hungary. Major issue here is there is still a huge 2000 year gap between Csongrad Suvorovo arrival and Mokrin. Must locate ancient L283 samples from between 4000-2000 BC. Could be tricky.
 
ihype02 said:
Why is there more E-V13 than J2b in Northern Italy then?
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Well Italy received various migrations, including solders, slaves.. So far there is no evidence there was V13 in pre Late Antiquity Italy. And don't forget there are also Illyrian Daunian samples and they came from Southern Albania (non-locals)..

aDNA trumps modern spread which can be misleading.

Also some bottlenecks. There is a V13 E-GFC11450 bottleneck in Liguria. I think V13 is like 14 % there but its mostly that clade.
 
ihype02 said:
Why is there more E-V13 than J2b in Northern Italy then?
Click to expand...

Are you referring to BC or AD times ?


in AD times.....would be the Venetian republic holding areas of Istria, Croatia, Dalmatia and Montenegro and Durres Albania for many centuries.........maybe workers. traders and sailors moving back and forwards


I do not recall any E ydna in ancient times .............but link me if you have any
 
torzio said:
Are you referring to BC or AD times ?
in AD times.....would be the Venetian republic holding areas of Istria, Croatia, Dalmatia and Montenegro and Durres Albania for many centuries.........maybe workers. traders and sailors moving back and forwards
I do not recall any E ydna in ancient times .............but link me if you have any
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E-V13 in Veneto is bigger than R1a and I2a combined together it cannot be of Slavic origin, maybe some minor clade but still.

Other regions of Italy have similar percentages. Also Italy has bigger population the entire Balkans combined together expect for Turkish Thrace.
 
ihype02 said:
Why is there more E-V13 than J2b in Northern Italy then?
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Because some Urnfield-Hallstatt migrants took the Northern land route, while the Illyrians came mostly by the sea.
The hoards and flame shaped spearheads among other things moved up the Danube at the end of the Bronze Age.
I also think that many of the Cagliari samples represent the Ligurian diversity and this points to a fairly early LBA-EIA spread in Northern Italy.
But of course, we need ancient DNA to confirm this.
There might have been more E-V13 shifted strongholds after the La Tene Celtic expansion, resulting in higher frequencies in areas like St. Gallen or Liguria. There seems to be a drop in Central Italy also, compared to the Northern hotspots.
 
Riverman said:
Because some Urnfield-Hallstatt migrants took the Northern land route, while the Illyrians came mostly by the sea.
The hoards and flame shaped spearheads among other things moved up the Danube at the end of the Bronze Age.
I also think that many of the Cagliari samples represent the Ligurian diversity and this points to a fairly early LBA-EIA spread in Northern Italy.
But of course, we need ancient DNA to confirm this.
There might have been more E-V13 shifted strongholds after the La Tene Celtic expansion, resulting in higher frequencies in areas like St. Gallen or Liguria. There seems to be a drop in Central Italy also, compared to the Northern hotspots.
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What do you think of E-V13 in Illyrians? Did it exist there?
 
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ihype02 said:
E-V13 in Veneto is bigger than R1a and I2a combined together it cannot be of Slavic origin, maybe some minor clade but still.
Other regions of Italy have similar percentages. Also Italy has bigger population the entire Balkans combined together expect for Turkish Thrace.
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there are some ..............but majority of E ydna in North East Italy is
E1b1b1 (M96 > M35.1) group
or
E1b⇾M84⇾⇾Y5437⇾PH1393⇾FGC18413⇾FGC18401⇾FGC18388
or
E1b⇾V12⇾⇾CTS4004⇾FGC7703⇾CTS3346⇾BY25750,Y37073

or
I1⇾Z60/S337⇾Z140⇾F2642

or
J2b⇾L283⇾Z597⇾Z2507⇾Z1296⇾Z1297

or

L-M317⇾M349⇾B374

or

there are a lot of these in southern Germany

E1b1b1a1b1a-V13⇾CTS5856⇾Z5017⇾Z5016⇾CTS9320⇾Z16988
 
Aspurg said:
Far more more popular. E-V13 to J-L283 ratio is much higher in these populations. I guess some got picked up by the Slavs..

And of course part of their V13 is of recent more Eastern origin, including Albanian origins.

But also probably effects of Hunnic invasions, and various resettlements.
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Considering that E-V13 in Croatia is nearly as big as R1b-Z2103, J2b-l283 and G combined together.
So most Paternal Balkanic ancestry in Croats come from non-Illyrians?
 
ihype02 said:
What do you think of E-V13 in Illyrians? Did it exist there?
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We should see it, i am not sure about this but i expect groups like Enchelei to have E-V13, then Pirusti, Dardanii and Taulanti based on material culture.

And, according to Hungarians the Sopron region that the two E-V13 were found, before 350 B.C, before the Proto-Celtic La Tene push, they consider it to have been Pannonian-Illyrian region.

If not Pannonian, then Western Hungary, Western Slovakia, and that region is the region of Middle-Danube Urnfielders, just like i predicted before, all Middle-Danube Urnfielders carried E-V13, Cako, Maho, Gava in different proportions.

Anyway, this is the J2b2 thread.
 
Aspurg said:
Far more more popular. E-V13 to J-L283 ratio is much higher in these populations. I guess some got picked up by the Slavs..

And of course part of their V13 is of recent more Eastern origin, including Albanian origins.

But also probably effects of Hunnic invasions, and various resettlements.
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Utter nonsense, south slavs dimished the v13 levels in balkans not increased it. V13 is almost non existant in near east, it has been in balkans for well over 2000 years
 
Aspurg said:
Because E-V13 is not Illyrian?:wondering: (bar some cases/clades of course)

E-V13 is IE proto-Thracian. Not what you and most people thought for years..:kidding:
Click to expand...

Why would bosnians carry far more "thracian" y dna than "illyrian"? You realise that j2b l283 is near non existant in bosnia?
 
TaktikatEMalet said:
Utter nonsense, south slavs dimished the v13 levels in balkans not increased it. V13 is almost non existant in near east, it has been in balkans for well over 2000 years
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He means Eastern Europe but that is not correct as well, Eastern Europe is too east, it was like a highway of various steppe people, and whoever stopped there were crushed like be it steppe or non-steppe by other incoming groups. And considering that Central-Western Europeans have more basal clades than Romanians/Moldavians/Ukrainians i do not really consider it as option. Yes, it rose in prominence there during Late Bronze Age as attested by archeological evidence, Proto-Dacians were heavily influenced by Middle-Danube Urnfielders during LBA.

The Transdanubian region (or surroundings) between Eastern Alps and Western Carpathians is the core E-V13 region, in other words, Southern Central Europe, neither East or West, exactly in the South-Center of the continent. This fits based on evidences.
 
Hawk said:
He means Eastern Europe but that is not correct as well, Eastern Europe is too east, it was like a highway of various steppe people, and whoever stopped there were crushed like be it steppe or non-steppe by other incoming groups. And considering that Central-Western Europeans have more basal clades than Romanians/Moldavians/Ukrainians i do not really consider it as option. Yes, it rose in prominence there during Late Bronze Age as attested by archeological evidence, Proto-Dacians were heavily influenced by Middle-Danube Urnfielders during LBA.
The Transdanubian region (or surroundings) between Eastern Alps and Western Carpathians is the core E-V13 region, in other words, Southern Central Europe, neither East or West, exactly in the South-Center of the continent. This fits based on evidences.
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Yes it makes no sense for v13 to be from eastern europe towards russia. V13 has high frequency in italy, especially south but also central, albania of course and greece. Why would it have frequencies like 20%+ in south italy, the region has nothing to do with thracians - it makes zero sense regionally

Sure thracians may have carried v13, but so did other paleobalkan people - people that actually moved to south italy
 
ihype02 said:
What do you think of E-V13 in Illyrians? Did it exist there?
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The main question is time, because since Channelled Ware expanded, they began to mix with locals. Some Illyrian groups seem to have been strongly influenced, including some ending up in Central Italy.
Later, there were mixed groups like the Dardanians or Triballi, in which one side began to dominate the other.
To sum it up, the separation was pretty clear cut in the MBA-LBA, but from the LBA-EIA transition, they extensively mixed and especially in the boderzones they acquired lineages from each other.
 
TaktikatEMalet said:
Why would bosnians carry far more "thracian" y dna than "illyrian"? You realise that j2b l283 is near non existant in bosnia?
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Because in Bosnians not much of the Illyrian patrilineages survived, its that simple. A lot of the non-Albanian E-V13 was actually picked up in the Pannonian-Danubian region.
Even Dome recent Albanian lineages are more likely to have come down no earlier than Late Antiquity.
Every subclade needs to be investigated on its own!
 
TaktikatEMalet said:
Some ancient v13 that has been found recently show a likely origin from western balkans and no correlation or link to eastern europeans like romanians/bulgarians etc -
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Romanians and Bulgarians in totality don't have much to do with ancient Balkan autosomally due to heavy Slavic admixture, no modern people is a good proxy of ancient Balkans, including Albanians or Greeks (except Dodecanese etc). Italians are a better proxy. The whole of ancient Balkan was sort of Italian-like in many ways, some Northern-like, some Southern-like etc. Ancient Western Balkan and Eastern Balkan had plenty of similarities but differences as well..

I suggest you do not devolve into useless drivel inspired by urge "to be Illyrian" like those Albanians on that page.. :laughing: And this is not a thread for E-V13 either.

Also Roman, Roman-MENA autosomal influence in modern Balkanites is underestimated.
 
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