Southern Illyrians & Mycenean Greeks on a PCA plot

[Riverman]

Let's hope so, so we put this nonsense behind us. EV-13 is widespread all over Europe, but somehow it's a "Daco-Thracian" only marker according to some here.

Early Daco-Thracians had a big time in the Urnfield and Early Iron Age period, I think that's something you are missing. Because who do you think spread cremation to many areas? By the time when the historical records started, a large portion of these lineages were no Daco-Thracians any more, but the association is pretty clear.
Its about Channelled Ware (LBA-EIA) and Psenichevo-Basarabi (EIA-IA). These two are critical and you can follow them influencing first Urnfield and then Hallstatt on a big scale. Some of the typological elements observable in Hallstatt for the first time in Central Europe came from Channelled Ware/Basarabi.

The borderline is exactly between the Illyrian customs (Unterkrainische group) and the Basarabi/Dacian ones (Fr?g, Kalenderberg), both in Austria. Their influence reached far and the Thraco-Cimmerian elite package spread even wider. You need to put things into context and we need one group dominated by E-V13 which experienced a rapid expansion during the LBA-EIA. That's the basic recommendation based on the E-V13 phylogeny and modern distribution. It can't have been "just sitting around" at that time, but experience a phase of major expansion with a serious of founder effects for almost all important E-V13 lineages which lasted about minimum 200 years. That's just what Channelled Ware is about, it allowed its core carrier group to expand massively at the expense of people they replaced, dominated or had intensive contacts with.

Sadly this woman is in control if all the Komani cultural sights from Lezhe to Oher and she is not allowing it. Not so much unfamiliar as much as thinking it's hocus pocus. Or if you want to be a conspiracy theorist like myself, she's getting paid off by our neighbors lol.

Many archaeologists and historians are pretty far on the left and dislike the idea of genetic testing for ideological reasons. Just recently I heard a speech from a Serbian archaeologists who compared genetic testing with nationalist propaganda and framed it "politically dangerous".

 

[Archetype0ne]

I doubt they weren't tested when the rumors were specific about finding J2b-L283/R1b/E-V13. Unless we're talking about different studies. But it was the South of Albania, yea.

My guess is she's terrified results won't match expectations. For some extra conspiracy theories, maybe she's getting paid off by Serbian government ������

Komani really would be the cream of the crop of early medieval Albanian origins that would shatter Serb and Greek government anti-Albanian propaganda.

Would be cool if you doublecheck as well. A week or so ago reading your comments I asked, I heard the South Albania samples are in Germany being tested (not tested yet). And made sure to ask about E-V13... which was not part of the Northern samples. Maybe its just a misunderstanding going on? Do not get me wrong, it would vindicate my theories substantially if E-V13 was found as you state, and I expect it to be found. Just from talking to Rrenjet that is not the case yet.

 

[Dianatomia]

Many archaeologists and historians are pretty far on the left and dislike the idea of genetic testing for ideological reasons. Just recently I heard a speech from a Serbian archaeologists who compared genetic testing with nationalist propaganda and framed it "politically dangerous".

This is also the position of Greek governments.

As for historians and archaeologists disliking genetic testing. It makes sense as it renders a part of their work useless, as it can be condradicted by genetic evidence. The reality is that archaology and DNA studies have to work hand in hand.

 

[Johane Derite]

If we imagine then in the late bronze age an autosomal signal from dalmatia that extends into north Albania of north italian like people, meeting greeks, what type of signal input would this channeled ware people from the carpathians have brought?

If Riverman's hypothesis of Ev13 expanding with channeled ware is correct, then we should expect EV13 in Albania since ~1200 bc in those regions at least where channeled ware appears in the map (from pazhok to kosova).
These people that came though would not have been speaking the same language as the dalmatian l283 people, so this opens up a new problem.

 

[Dibran]

II-III century A.D is not Late Iron Age, rather Late Antiquity.

Whats the source for these 50 skeletons? Never heard anything about a study on Diber.

 

[Dibran]

If this is actually the case, I apologize for not being aware of it. 50 skeletons is a significant amount of material, and I hope that genetic research continues to be more cheap for developing countries.

Apparently only 1 sample was sent to be sequenced and dated. Not all 50. Which is pretty dumb. And it's from the 3rd-4th century likely. Found in a cave in Gjuras.

 

[Excine]

Apparently only 1 sample was sent to be sequenced and dated. Not all 50. Which is pretty dumb. And it's from the 3rd-4th century likely. Found in a cave in Gjuras.

Yeah, I was skeptical of 50 skeletons, what a bummer though.

 

[Hawk]

Whats the source for these 50 skeletons? Never heard anything about a study on Diber.

No source, i was referring to Marin Mema's documentary as was enter_tain, you can watch the documentary yourself.

In the video, one archeologist states that the samples are expected to be from II-III century A.D. If that's the case then i said that's not Late Iron Age rather Late Antiquity.

 

[Riverman]

Apparently only 1 sample was sent to be sequenced and dated. Not all 50. Which is pretty dumb. And it's from the 3rd-4th century likely. Found in a cave in Gjuras.

They probably just want to give it a shot and check how it works for them. I know of archaeologists and historians which were staunch opponents to genetic testing, extremely left oriented, but now they participate regularly on papers. I heard them saying, "if it has to be done, we want to have some control about how the results being interpreted at least." But that was a process. For one scientist I knew personally it lasted 10 years and now he can put his wrong theories into every paper which gets published, even if his theories being contradicted by the very results obtained. That way both sides being satisfied, because the geneticists just want samples and publications, and the historians don't want their theories getting shredded and themselves made looking dumb. If they need to correct, if the results are very clearly against what they proposed before, they can at least do the correction themselves with comments in the papers.
That's kind of a working on mutual trust. That the archaeologists and historians deliver the right samples and frames, the geneticists allow them to interpret the results as they like. Better than nothing gets done...

 

[Dibran]

Yeah, I was skeptical of 50 skeletons, what a bummer though.

Apparently it could be fron expenses. 1 sample is like 10k or something ti sequence. So all 50 would be half a mill.

At least 10 would have been decent if they could swing that. Cut into the government trafficking funds lmao

 

[Johane Derite]

Sadly this woman is in control if all the Komani cultural sights from Lezhe to Oher and she is not allowing it. Not so much unfamiliar as much as thinking it's hocus pocus. Or if you want to be a conspiracy theorist like myself, she's getting paid off by our neighbors lol.

This is just so ridiculous and sad. Shameful.

Especially considering she complains to archaeologists like Bowden that there was supression of archaeological materials that could be perceived as "Slavic" by the communists, and she is doing the same thing by supressing genetic testing of koman.

 

[Hawk]

If Riverman's hypothesis of Ev13 expanding with channeled ware is correct, then we should expect EV13 in Albania since ~1200 bc in those regions at least where channeled ware appears in the map (from pazhok to kosova).
These people that came though would not have been speaking the same language as the dalmatian l283 people, so this opens up a new problem.

Somehow Hammond's writings make sense considering these archeological evidences:

A History of Macedonia: 550-336 B.C by Nicholas Geoffrey Lemprière Hammond,Guy Thompson Griffith, 1978, ISBN 0198148143, page 93, "The Peresadyes, then, were the rulers of Trebenishte, and Hecataeus wrote of them when they were at the height of their power. It is likely, as we have, seen, that they came from the north; they may have been Dardanii, forerunners of the fourth-century dynasty of Bardylis, and they had contact with the Thracians,..."

Again Hammond:

Epirus: the geography, the ancient remains, the history and topography of ...by Nicholas Geoffrey Lemprière Hammond, 1967, page 467, "The Encheleae then cannot be the Sesarethii. The Peresyades, we conclude, were chiefs of a Taulantian tribe from Sesarethus and were also called Sesarethii. I should then punctuate the text as follows..."

It looks to me Peresadyes were a Channeled-Ware tribe, western one, who was ruling in Trebeniste, Dardania and among Taulanti. The name sounds quite similar to Odrysian name Berisades/Peresadyes and Black Sea Kings: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paerisades_I

who belonged to Spartokid dynasty (Spartokos was rumoured to be Odrysian by descent himself).

 

[bigsnake49]

II-III century A.D is not Late Iron Age, rather Late Antiquity.

Goths invaded the eastern part of the roman Empire in the late 4th century AD. The battle of Adrianople was in 378 AD.

 

[Hawk]

Goths invaded the eastern part of the roman Empire in the late 4th century AD. The battle of Adrianople was in 378 AD.

So II-III century A.D, Middle Antiquity be it?

The line is too tight between Middle-Late Antiquity.

 

[Ralphie Boy]

Here's a preview of an upcoming model I am putting together.


I think it is important to point out that the Aegean Islands are not near-homogenously Anatolia_BA in the model; the same in previous ones I made as well.


Foca and Lemmos look like they belong in Central Greece or Athens, except they don't get the Corded Ware-like ancestry from Slavic enrichment. Anatolia_BA is a minority component for them.

Very nice model, and seems to agree with this thread’s origin, if I understand correctly, that mainland Greeks and Albanians are more “western” shifted (less Anatolia_BA ancestry).

 

[Dibran]

This is just so ridiculous and sad. Shameful.

Especially considering she complains to archaeologists like Bowden that there was supression of archaeological materials that could be perceived as "Slavic" by the communists, and she is doing the same thing by supressing genetic testing of koman.

Yup Nalbani. That's the woman. I agree. It's a shame. Either she really is a deer in the headlights and believes genetics is hocus pocus or she is definitely being paid off by someone out of fear the results of tested Komani graves will crush some narrative our neighbors have. Or even kur government.

I recall the Greek government supposedly prohibiting the Greek academy of sciences from testing royal Macedonian tombs of the Argead era. Probably for similar fears.

Really is sad.

 

[mount123]

Many archaeologists and historians are pretty far on the left and dislike the idea of genetic testing for ideological reasons. Just recently I heard a speech from a Serbian archaeologists who compared genetic testing with nationalist propaganda and framed it "politically dangerous".

"Historians" have always had a favor for pseudoscience and propagandistic stand views. This also reflects on peoples' opinions who consume their propaganda. Just look at some people here being unhappy with the au/Y/mtDNA make up of the for now available Illyrian samples. They don't accept it and go so far claiming the Albanian genetic composition has only one source

As for those Serbian archeologists they are the same individuals who claim Albanians are not Paleo Balkan and that Slavs are native to South East Europe...so much for propaganda and pseudoscientific theories that have been the basis for ethnic cleansing.

 

[Jovialis]

New chart, more of the same really.

 

[Riverman]

Apparently it could be fron expenses. 1 sample is like 10k or something ti sequence. So all 50 would be half a mill.
At least 10 would have been decent if they could swing that. Cut into the government trafficking funds lmao

That's an argument, but aren't there some options for cooperations which press the costs? Or aren't the big laboratories not interested and just do it for the price? I doubt that, but I'm not into the business.

As for the Channelled Ware in Albania, that would be huge, because if there would be proven continuity, with actual samples, it would prove that both branches from the North would have carried E-V13, the Belegis II-G?va and the Lower Danubian groups, which had, in part, separate origins, but both can be deduced from Northern G?va influences.

On the basis of these results as well as the earlier research in this area a chronology
of this period in the South Morava basin has been established. The analysis of the material, particularly pottery, shows that
channelled pottery of Gava-Belegis II type (Iron Age Ib) was a prevailing feature at the beginning of the Transitional period in
the entire region. It is also stated that during the Transitional period a particular culture group formed in the basin of the river
Pcinja, the upper course of the Vardar, then in the Ko~ane-Kratovo area and in the Vranje-Bujanovac valley, which later influenced
south-east Kosovo and the Leskovac area. The group was named the Pcinja cultural group, after the central part of the territory.

This period being not well researched in the region, though its extremely important for the later Iron Age, historically attested populations:

The Transitional period from the Bronze to the Iron
Age, which includes the two last centuries of the 2nd
and the two first centuries of the 1st millennium B.C.,
is one of the less known prehistoric periods in this region
and neighbouring areas.

The local people got largely replaced/assimilated by incoming Channelled Ware people:

The Brnjica group was dominant in the Late Bronze
Age in the entire South Morava basin.2 Its disintegration
began already at the beginning of the Transitional
period, when the channelled pottery from the North
became more prevalent.

Kosovo in particular was fully affected:

Ornaments which are characteristic in the
Transitional period from the Bronze to the Iron Age for
the sites in the south region of the South Morava basin,
then in the P~inja valley, the upper course of the Vardar
and the Bregalnica valley, are rows of slanted and oval
*****s, mainly combined with channels and incised
hanging hatched triangles.36 Pottery decorated with
oval *****s was found in Kr`ince in layer III, so the
dating of this layer (phase Ha A2/B1) can be considered
as terminus post quem for the appearance of this
ornament in the South Morava basin. Besides Kr`ince,
they are found in Kopanjane, Klinovac, Svinji{te, Rusac,
Pavlovac and Bui} in the Vranje?Bujanovac valley
(Figs. 37, 62?63, 67, 74, 79, 81), Lju{ta in Kosovo and
Orane near Lebane, then frequently in the south region
of the P~inja valley: Pelince, Mlado Nagori~ino (Fig.
86), Makre{ (Fig. 82?83), Vra`ogrnci (Fig. 84), Skopje,
Gornje Konjare, Nemanjica (Fig. 87), Sopot (Fig.
88?89), Orizari, Kr{la, Gornji Kozjak, Strnovac,
Lipkovo.37 In Volkovo, pottery decorated with rows of
oval *****s appears in the Donja P~inja region, mat
painted pottery in a large mound in Strnovac, where
pottery with slanted *****s was also found, indicates
that the appearance of this ornament can be approximately
dated to phase Ha A, together with a bronze spectacle
fibula of type Haslau?Regelsbrunn, which according to
R. Vasi} dates to the 9th century, or Reinecke?s phase
Ha B2/B3.38 Similar pottery was found in mound III at
the site Orlova ^uka, where some metal finds were also
dated to the 9th century B.C.39
These ornaments, a basic characteristic of this
culture, were in use for a long time, appearing on pottery
from the end of phase Ha A in Macedonia (Strnovac),
as well as from Ha B in the south of the South Morava
basin and in Kosovo (Kr`ince, Kopanjane, Klinovac,
Svinji{te, Orane, Lju{ta, Lipovica). Apart from identical
decoration, these sites contain identical pottery shapes,
which also indicate a unique culture. These are bowls
with inverted, facetted or slanted channelled rims,
sometimes with tunnel-like handles or arched handles
on the rim (Figs. 59, 75, 88), then pear-like amphorae
with slanted, profiled or everted rims (Figs. 77?78),
sometimes with horizontal handles on the belly.

But it was a secondary expansion from a more Southern valley position to the North West, rather late, in this particular case:

It is not clear, however, whether the Kosovo sites
with this pottery mark a north-west periphery of this
culture in its expansion phase, or belong to the same
period as the sites in north-east Macedonia and
south-east Serbia. The site [iroko in Kosovo with the
same vessel shapes, decorated with oval *****s, as in
the P~inja region and the Vranje?Bujanovac valley,
was dated in earlier literature to the 7th/6th century
B.C.40 Double looped globular fibulae and double
looped fibulae with twisted bow from this site can be
dated to the 8th/7th century, according to new data.41
For this reason, it can be concluded that pottery,
decorated with rows of slanted and oval *****s, originates
in the P~inja valley, under the influence of local
channelled pottery decorated like the pottery from
phase Ib of the Morava culture, but also that of stamped
pottery from Thrace (Razkopnica, Djadovo, Galabnik),
and so during the Transitional period slowly spread
towards the north-west and north.42 Sporadic pottery
finds with the same style-typological features in the
valley area of the South Morava basin (Karadnik,
Lu~ane), as well as in Bui} on the communication
route between the Pre{evo area and Kosovo, support this
supposition. The material from the site Bui} also indicates
the routes along which this pottery spread towards the
north-west, to Kosovo ([iroko, Lju{ta, Bela}evac), but
probably only from the end of phase Ha B.

It gets even more complicated:

It seems that this pottery appears in Kosovo through the
Vardar and Strumica valleys, only as a cultural influence from the
south. The fact that at this time in Kosovo the dead are cremated and
not inhumed, as in south-east Serbia and north-east Macedonia,
speaks in favour of the supposition that two different cultures are in
question

Their identity was probably Dardanian:

Thus, it seems that this territory at the time of the
P~inja group belonged to a population which can be
conditionally considered as proto-Dardanian, but later at
the time of Paeonian expansion the south part of this
territory (Bregalnica and the Skopje?Kumanovo region)
fell under the Paeonian influence. On the other hand,
?Proto-Dardanians?, turned towards the north and
north-west (Kosovo, the Leskovac region) because of
this Paeonian pressure.61 Influences from the south,
apart from the so-called Macedonian or Paeonian
bronzes, were visible also in pottery forms, which
contained elements from the lower Vardar valley, such
as jugs with slanted rim, decorated with oval *****s or
rectangular impressions, combined with hanging
hatched triangles ? typical decoration of the P~inja
group (Volkovo, Radanje, Star Karaorman, Sredno
Nerezi, Skopje).62
Ancient sources (Strabo, Justin), which speak of
Dardanian presence in the Skopje?Kumanovo region in
the 3rd and 2nd century B.C., indicate that Dardanian
ethnic substrate (P~inja cultural group) survived
Paeonian pressure from the south.63

Note that not just Channelled Ware played a role in the wider region, but also Psenichevo-Basarabi (typical: S-shaped, incised/stamped decorations):

During phase Ha A2, the channelled pottery culture,
characteristic of Iron Age Ib in the Morava valley, is
dominant in the Great and South Morava basins. At the
same time, in the hilly-mountainous part of the upper
course of the South Morava, small communities of the
Brnjica group continued to exist (Surdul, Svinji{te,
Prvonek, Vranjska Banja, Prose~nik etc.), retreating
from the channelled pottery population, which occupied
the former Brnjica plain settlements (Oku}nica Baneta
Krsti}a in Rujkovac, Kr`ince, Kale in Kr{evica, Resulja
in Lu~ane, Donji Jasen in Karadnik), but also founded
new settlements (Turija, Trnava etc.).64 This period
marks the end of the Late Bronze Age and the beginning
of the Transitional period from the Bronze to the Iron
Age, and can be defined as the horizon of channelled
pottery, or the earlier horizon of the Transitional period
in the South Morava basin. Apart from the sites cited,
it includes also the site Hisar in Leskovac (early horizon
of the Transitional period ? Hisar IIa, after M. Stoji}),
Surdulica etc.
Already at the end of this period and at the beginning
of phase Ha B1 the first rows of impressions in the
form of small elongated triangular incisions appear on
channelled pottery, and soon after, the Psenichevo culture
penetrates into the north and central part of the South
Morava basin, as seen on the pottery, decorated in this
manner, from Mediana, Palilula, Hisar, ^itluk,
Dimitrovgrad, Kr`ince and other sites in this territory.
At this time, in the South Morava basin, south of
Vranje, ornamentation with slanted and oval *****s,
most frequently combined with channels and hatched
hanging triangles, appears on bowls with inverted
facetted or twisted rim, on pear-like amphorae with
channelled belly and other pottery shapes. It was a
unique cultural manifestation, originating in the P~inja
basin, the upper course of the Vardar and Moravica
valleys, or in the Skopje?Kumanovo and Bujanovac?
Pre{evo region, under the influence of the former Brnjica
culture, channelled pottery from Iron Age Ib in the
Morava culture, as well as the stamped pottery culture
from the East (P{eni~evo culture, so-called Cepina
culture). Oval and slanted *****s evolved later in a
similar motif, in the form of rectangular impressions,
which was characteristic for sites in the Ov~epolje?
Bregalnica, Skopje?Kumanovo and Vranje regions, but
also in Kosovo. This cultural manifestation, called the
P~inja cultural group, appeared already at the beginning
of the Transitional period, perhaps at the end of phase
Ha A2, but certainly in phase Ha B1?B2 (phase I of the
P~inja group ? Map 1); later, during phase Ha B2?B3
(phase II of the P~inja group ? Map 2), it spread to
Kosovo, and its influence was visible in the north
(Orane by Bojnik, Lapotince, Lipovica).
At the end of the earlier horizon of the Transitional
period, in the region north of Vranje, apart from
channels, characteristic of Iron Age Ib pottery in the
Morava culture, false cord and impressed circles are
dominant, together with rows of S motif (Kr`ince, layer
III). In the later horizon of the Transitional period
(phase Ha B1/B2?B3) pottery with S motifs, false cord
and concentric circles dominates in this part of the
South Morava basin (Palja, Kr`ince ? layer IV, Slivnica),
while ornamentation with rectangular impressions,
characteristic for phase II of the P~inja group, appears
only in Ranutovac (Map 3, Tables 1 and 2).

https://www.researchgate.net/public...tional_period_from_the_Bronze_to_the_Iron_Age

Because of all these influences, many based on original Channelled Ware groups, timing is crucial. Because one century earlier or later, the population might look rather different. We can't assume a great deal of continuity just like that. The most important question for me is:
Did E-V13 mainly spread from G?va itself or rather secondarily from Psenichevo-Basarabi from the Southern/Eastern branch. To answer that, we need LBA samples, not even Iron Age! Channelled Ware fits better, because the impact of Psenichevo-Basarabi was later and not everywhere as strong as it should be to explain the whole spread of E-V13 in the transitional period. Channelled Ware on the other hand is definitely big enough, if assuming it was actually dominated by E-V13, which is my currently favoured theory.

 

[mount123]

We don't even have Southern Illyrian DNA yet. So its technically guesswork on all sides until we actually get ancient samples. Sadly the woman in control of most archeological sites in North Albania, including Komani culture is anti-genetics and won't allow testing.

Going by sampling and Y-DNA alone, Kosove is really under-tested man.

Thank you for for pointing this out Kosovo is indeed under sampled which I feel like people are completely ignoring since they take samples from Albania as representative for regions of Kosovo. I also don't see rrenjet as a good source for inclusivity since they leave important regions out like Dardha (Kamenice).

In regards to J2b-L283 given that we are severely under sampled in Kosovo we actually have quite diverse branches. Ironically I myself am an example as I have pointed out in earlier posts my mother's paternal line is J2b-L283>>>Z631 (Korbi tribe). If I recall correctly on rrenjet there was even this guy from Lipjan (which is severely under sampled) who was J2b-L283>>>PH1602.