Southern Illyrians & Mycenean Greeks on a PCA plot

[Trojet]

Wait 20 from Montenegro is huge! Wait North Macedonia 20 as well!!!
Do we have any idea when this is out?

I heard the paper has already been submitted to Science magazine and is undergoing the "peer-review" process. So it should be soon.

I'm really curious on the samples from Montenegro, hopefully they're pretty promising.

Absolutely. We currently have zero Y-DNA samples from ancient Montenegro, and it's a region that's quite important for the Illyrians..

 

[Southpaw]

Latest news i got was that the Psenichevo Iron Age E-V13 samples were removed, likely some butthurt I2a/R1a Bulgarians complained and now they delay the results.

 

[kl1ki]

I heard the paper has already been submitted to Science magazine and is undergoing the "peer-review" process. So it should be soon.
Absolutely. We currently have zero Y-DNA samples from ancient Montenegro, and it's a region that's quite important for the Illyrians..

I'm quite intrigued by it; Montenegro, or at least the southeastern portion of it, is a hotspot for E-V13, considering that we know that a lot of it transmitted during the Middle Ages, I'm curious whether any will be discovered during the Iron Age.

 

[mount123]

Latest news i got was that the Psenichevo Iron Age E-V13 samples were removed, likely some butthurt I2a/R1a Bulgarians complained and now they delay the results.

If that is true they are even more ridiculous than those from Croatia that tried to sneak in that I2a Slav

 

[Archetype0ne]

Guys be careful with such accusations. It makes us look like nutjobs. Croatian scientists have been doing a fantastic job, I think they deserve the benefit of the doubt, as sample contamination happens from time to time(and 1 among 200+ is not the end of the world). About the Bulgarian paper, I think its a foreign lab that analyzed them, was it Max Plank (from that youtube video cant recall)? Once you submit the bones, you can not remove them? So not sure what this rumor is. But I would hope its some misunderstanding, and when the Bulgarian paper comes all the samples are there. If anything can be criticized is the low number of samples from certain countries in the Balkans... but we can't go around throwing accusations of bad scientific ethics just based on rumors. Hope I am not sounding condescending as I do not mean to.

Edit: What would be funny is if those E-V13 were just assigned to another paper, and they come out with the Lazaridis paper xD. One can only hope as I do not want to wait 2 more years...

 

[Riverman]

I'm quite intrigued by it; Montenegro, or at least the southeastern portion of it, is a hotspot for E-V13, considering that we know that a lot of it transmitted during the Middle Ages, I'm curious whether any will be discovered during the Iron Age.

That's a good question, but I think a higher portion of E-V13 is more likely for Kosovo and the North of Albania than for Montenegro, which was more protected from the earlier movements. But Macedonia should have it in the Iron Age, most definitely. It was heavily affected by both Channelled Ware and Psenichevo-Basarabi, much more so than Bosnia, Montenegro or Albania, that was replacement level in much of its territory. Same is true for Serbia, for Croatia it depends on the area, the North East/Slavonia was most affected.

Compare with the signature finds from Channelled Ware, especially the South Western Belegis II-G?va group:
https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threa...kan-case/page9?p=634651&viewfull=1#post634651

If you compare those with the latest samples of E-V13, you could as well overlap the hoard/flame shaped casted spearheads with higher concentrations of E-V13 in Pannonia up to the Avars. Could be a coincidence, but rather not.

In most these maps, Albania got affected too, but there is a core region of the Southern Adriatic they just seem to have forewent, presumably because the locals blocked them (Illyrian core). In other Adriatic and even Albanian regions there were at least produced finds, most important are of course hoards and production for the Reutlingen swords, flame shaped, casted spearheads, burnished black pottery with fluting etc. in combination with hoards and cremation burials.
If they find E1b1b anywhere, context and dating is key, as is the exact subclade, in a best case scenario terminal clade, of the sample.
To just get "some E1b1b" might be not that helpful after all, because we need to know:
- To which branch they belong, how they can be placed in the larger distribution and phylogeny
- Whether they are part of "the founding fathers" from the LBA-EIA transition or just a negligible side branch which probably didn't even survive, like some of the Michelsberger presumably.

That was a major shortcoming of the British paper and much better in the Avar-Pannonian one.

 

[Southpaw]

Not in the sense of removing them completely, they plan to post them in separate paper not the Southern-arch. Just delaying it let's say, and probably after a decade lol.

But, it's true that from Stamov's leak only the EIA E-V13 leak were removed from youtube and internet. No conspiracy here.

 

[Riverman]

Guys be careful with such accusations. It makes us look like nutjobs. Croatian scientists have been doing a fantastic job, I think they deserve the benefit of the doubt, as sample contamination happens from time to time(and 1 among 200+ is not the end of the world). About the Bulgarian paper, I think its a foreign lab that analyzed them, was it Max Plank (from that youtube video cant recall)? Once you submit the bones, you can not remove them? So not sure what this rumor is. But I would hope its some misunderstanding, and when the Bulgarian paper comes all the samples are there. If anything can be criticized is the low number of samples from certain countries in the Balkans... but we can't go around throwing accusations of bad scientific ethics just based on rumors. Hope I am not sounding condescending as I do not mean to.

Indeed. It doesn't need to be contamination, which being checked for quite thoroughly in most studies by now, but rather a dating issue. People should realise that dating, even with the best available methods is sometimes quite tricky and not such a safe procedure at all. If you read up on how much more important samples being sometimes misdated or later corrected, just to be corrected again some years later, you lose faith in the process. On average, its still good and reliable, but from time to time, samples just slip through the correction process.

 

[Archetype0ne]

Not in the sense of removing them completely, they plan to post them in separate paper not the Southern-arch. Just delaying it let's say, and probably after a decade lol.

But, it's true that from Stamov's leak only the EIA E-V13 leak were removed from youtube and internet. No conspiracy here.

I thought Estara on Anthrogenica said in a comment that the Bulgarian samples are not yet tested and the paper might come out in around two years... And that made me think its not the Lazaridis Southern Arch Paper (if I am not mistaken... Reich Lab, Harvard). Hence why I assumed it must be the Max Plank Institute. Are you sure it was meant to be in the Southern Arc Paper?

Yeah, could not find the video, but there is screenshots on google. So once the cat is out of the bag, its a worse figure to chase after it, why I doubt foul play.

 

[Archetype0ne]

Indeed. It doesn't need to be contamination, which being checked for quite thoroughly in most studies by now, but rather a dating issue. People should realise that dating, even with the best available methods is sometimes quite tricky and not such a safe procedure at all. If you read up on how much more important samples being sometimes misdated or later corrected, just to be corrected again some years later, you lose faith in the process. On average, its still good and reliable, but from time to time, samples just slip through the correction process.

Saw that, some fora members even said the sample could be as young as WWII.
PS: What do you make of the Central Europe MA tease today? Did you see the similarity maps? It confirmed in a way some suspicions of mine and a very old discussions we had here about possible Slavic input in Albanians. The convo when we were playing with calculators after Danubian Limes and I was making the point that if one was to take the model from the paper, French and North Italians would have to have 20%+ Slavic. I was at the time saying whatever the input is it seems rather Eastern(compared to the known migration of the South Slavs) and possibly earlier.

Quite a shame Romania does not seem to have been compared.

 

[enter_tain]

And by the way. They recently found a cave from Albania and carbon dated the skeletons to 300-400 AD. A ton of skeletons, and in good condition. That should give us enough late Iron Age Illyrian samples.

They think they were either pagans or Christians practicing in private. Hopefully, it's not some Goths or something. They speculated on that too.

https://youtu.be/_4Nk26vN71s

 

[enter_tain]

They mentioned the carbon dating was done at Oxford by some Austrian archeologists. Hopefully, they do a proper timely DNA analysis and not take like 12 years.

 

[Fustan]

Great find entertain. Exciting stuff.

 

[enter_tain]

They mentioned the carbon dating was done at Oxford by some Austrian archeologists. Hopefully, they do a proper timely DNA analysis and not take like 12 years.

One of the archeologists in the video is also associated with the Iain Mathieson paper" The Genomic History of Southeastern Europe"

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6091220/

 

[Johane Derite]

"Në kuadër të projektit “Paleogjenetika e Evropianëve juglindorë: rasti i Shqipërisë” nën bashkëdrejtimin e Dr. Rovena Kurti dhe Dr. Ron Pinhasi, një bashkëpunim midis Institutit të Arkeologjisë dhe Departamentit të Antropologjisë Evolucioniste në Universitetin e Vjenës (Austri), u bë e mundur të ofrohen të dhënat e para rreth datimit të materialit skeletor të depozituar në “Shpellën e Ftohtë”, në fshatin Gjuras të krahinës së Dibrës. "


Interesting, one of the archaeologists directing this cave find is Dr Rovena Kurti.

Another interesting paper by her:





"In grave 2 of tumulus4 of Kënetë, the pair of ribbed bracelets is associated by a small kantharos with channeled decoration (otherwise called kanellure decoration) consisting of widelyspaced vertical or slightly oblique grooves or ribbings, which can be considered asone of the earliest appearances of this type of decoration in LBA Albania.

; further analysis on the channelled ware in Albania is provided by N. Bodinaku, referring also to its first appearance in the tumuli of Pazhok, in central Albania, since the 13th century B.C., see Bodinaku 1982, p. 72-73, 98, Tab. IX: v. 43; see also Prendi 1978, p. 14-15"

LINK: https://halshs.archives-ouvertes.fr/halshs-01695818/document

So very important to the original subject of this thread, this invasion of channeled ware people into the heart of North Albania and Kosova (Mat and Dardania), what autosomal signal must they have had?

It is impossible that they were speaking the same language as the people already there and in Glasinac, Bosnia.

Fascinating stuff.

 

[Johane Derite]

"Në kuadër të projektit “Paleogjenetika e Evropianëve juglindorë: rasti i Shqipërisë” nën bashkëdrejtimin e Dr. Rovena Kurti dhe Dr. Ron Pinhasi, një bashkëpunim midis Institutit të Arkeologjisë dhe Departamentit të Antropologjisë Evolucioniste në Universitetin e Vjenës (Austri), u bë e mundur të ofrohen të dhënat e para rreth datimit të materialit skeletor të depozituar në “Shpellën e Ftohtë”, në fshatin Gjuras të krahinës së Dibrës. "


Interesting, one of the archaeologists directing this cave find is Dr Rovena Kurti.

Another interesting paper by her:





"In grave 2 of tumulus4 of Kënetë, the pair of ribbed bracelets is associated by a small kantharos with channeled decoration (otherwise called kanellure decoration) consisting of widelyspaced vertical or slightly oblique grooves or ribbings, which can be considered asone of the earliest appearances of this type of decoration in LBA Albania.

; further analysis on the channelled ware in Albania is provided by N. Bodinaku, referring also to its first appearance in the tumuli of Pazhok, in central Albania, since the 13th century B.C., see Bodinaku 1982, p. 72-73, 98, Tab. IX: v. 43; see also Prendi 1978, p. 14-15"

LINK: https://halshs.archives-ouvertes.fr/halshs-01695818/document

So very important to the original subject of this thread, this invasion of channeled ware people into the heart of North Albania and Kosova (Mat and Dardania), what autosomal signal must they have had?

It is impossible that they were speaking the same language as the people already there and in Glasinac, Bosnia.

Fascinating stuff.

We know that the the bronze age dalmatians autosomally were closer to north italians, so what would the people of Albanian have been like autosomally before the channeled ware invasion that began in 1200BC?

 

[Johane Derite]

We know that the the bronze age dalmatians autosomally were closer to north italians, so what would the people of Albanian have been like autosomally before the channeled ware invasion that began in 1200BC?

Map of the chaneled ware distribution in Albania and Kosova. From Pazhok to Dardania. Very, very fascinating.

 

[Riverman]

Saw that, some fora members even said the sample could be as young as WWII.
PS: What do you make of the Central Europe MA tease today? Did you see the similarity maps? It confirmed in a way some suspicions of mine and a very old discussions we had here about possible Slavic input in Albanians. The convo when we were playing with calculators after Danubian Limes and I was making the point that if one was to take the model from the paper, French and North Italians would have to have 20%+ Slavic. I was at the time saying whatever the input is it seems rather Eastern(compared to the known migration of the South Slavs) and possibly earlier.

Quite a shame Romania does not seem to have been compared.

I'm rather waiting for more, can't say much.
The single biggest problem we have is that a lot of people, crucial people in crucial times, did practise cremation. The few skeletons found are usually from special burials which might or might not be representative for the average of the group.
It's manageable, but it doesn't make things easier.
From LBA-EIA Eastern Hungary, Romania, Slovakia, Serbia etc., we have so far nothing.
Especially for the Illyrian vs Thracian and E-V13 debates, we need representative samples from the cremating groups.
Otherwise it might be extremely skewed.

 

[enter_tain]

Map of the chaneled ware distribution in Albania and Kosova. From Pazhok to Dardania. Very, very fascinating.

Stop spamming my thread with your garbage. Either refer to the OP, or don't post at all.

 

[Johane Derite]

Map of the chaneled ware distribution in Albania and Kosova. From Pazhok to Dardania. Very, very fascinating.

If we imagine then in the late bronze age an autosomal signal from dalmatia that extends into north Albania of north italian like people, meeting greeks, what type of signal input would this channeled ware people from the carpathians have brought?