Where does the Albanian language come from? [VIDEO]

[mount123]

Some people believe they come from a Vlach migration. I wonder if there is any possibility this is instead a retaining of an ancient Carpathian tradition from which Albanians also got their Tirq?

This is obviously less likely, and most probably some sort of medieval migration must have happened, but still when you see them they are so similar to Albanian Tirq, it really is striking.

I am not sure but the user Polska is partly or fully of Goral descent and he is J2b-L283, I apologize if this is not true I can only recall a discussion I read about these people while scrolling in the Proto-Illyrian J2b-L283 thread.

Gajtana, Tirqi etc. are definitely Paleo-Balkan costume traits and have been heavily adopted by Slavs in South East Europe. Same can be said about female traditional costumes. Edit: of course I am especially talking about Slavs in the Balkans like Bulgarians e. g.

 

[Fustan]

Pretty sure the Tirq was worn by Bulgarians and North Macedonians too, however it was a long time ago I looked into it. Still, could've been mediated to them through Albanians during the medieval period.

 

[Illyria]

Pretty sure the Tirq was worn by Bulgarians and North Macedonians too, however it was a long time ago I looked into it. Still, could've been mediated to them through Albanians during the medieval period.

It sure was, I've always been fascinated by the Teskoto dance, I believe it's danced by Macedonians living in a region close to the borders of Albania, in or around Dibra. They use the same pants, instruments, and slow step war dance like Ghegs in these videos

 

[mount123]

It sure was, I've always been fascinated by the Teskoto dance, I believe it's danced by Macedonians living in a region close to the borders of Albania, in or around Dibra. They use the same pants, instruments, and slow step war dance like Ghegs in these videos

Zurla is cancer to my ears

The female traditional outfits are also very Albanian like.

 

[mount123]

Is there anyone here who knows of some linguistic origin theory regarding the word "Xhubleta".

 

[Southpaw]

Matzinger suggests that the early proto-Albanians developed these isoglosses with the Balto-Slavic group when they were living in the Carpathian region.

What archaeological cultures were in the Carpathian region (Albanian. Karpë) that may be relevant to the proto-Albanians?

He wouldn't know for sure which timeline, or whether it was Pre Proto-Albanoid or Albanoid-like languages. I would go with Late Bronze Age to Early Iron Age migration with Gava/Channeled-Ware. Since, archeologically this is well attested.

 

[Dushman]

I hate repeating things, but how does Matzinger explain the -shk in modern Albanian, e.g. shkarpë, shkurre, shkëmb, shkretë, etc.

Similarly, Shkodra cannot be Albanian because of the -sk -shk, but check this, Shkupi is so Proto-Albanian.

Any chance Matzinger considers the fact that maybe established city/settlement names don’t undergo linguistic changes? Roma is still Roma and we don’t even know what the root word means in Latin. Perhaps it’s from Etruscan Ruma (totem for wolf). Does this means the Latins can’t claim Rome?

And again, what if the “proto-Albanians” named the settlements Skodra and Skupi before -sk became -h?

What’s the problem if Skodra isn’t even Albanian? Athens is not Greek either, do we make a big deal out of it? Rome could have indeed been Etruscan, but do you see anyone stripping in off from the Latins?

Then we have Derite’s interesting articles about Dardanians, Paeonians, Macedonians, Thessalian, Trojan, etc. whatever names ending with -enor and -damas. What’s the Proto-Albanian etymology of Agenor and Antenor?

Conclusion: Albanian is not related to Dardanian, Paeonian, Phrygian, Makedonian, Epirotic, Thessalian.

What I still don’t understand is what (inexistent) Illyrian language is he studying? Where does he get the Illyrian word ‘bora’ from? The same applies to all the other words which “are Illyrian but not Albanian”. Lol

Bro, all we got from Illyrians is few words, tribal names, city names, most being cognates with Albanian. But I’m not believe Albanian is not Illyrian because Albanian uses ‘a’ and Illyrian used ‘o’.

Wowwww, EUREKA! How about the fact that the majority of Albanian dialects say Notë (night) and not Natë which is simply Tosk Albanian. The best we can do is say Nâtë in Shkodra region and to foreigners ‘â’ is closer to ‘o’ than ‘a’.

The dude (Matzinger) is so retarded he can’t even figure out the etymology of ‘vëlla’ (brother) and ‘lumë’ (river). Derite can you please show us what he says about vëlla and lumë? I want to laugh a bit with this “scientist”.

 

[Johane Derite]

I hate repeating things, but how does Matzinger explain the -shk in modern Albanian, e.g. shkarpë, shkurre, shkëmb, shkretë, etc.

Similarly, Shkodra cannot be Albanian because of the -sk -shk, but check this, Shkupi is so Proto-Albanian.

Any chance Matzinger considers the fact that maybe established city/settlement names don’t undergo linguistic changes? Roma is still Roma and we don’t even know what the root word means in Latin. Perhaps it’s from Etruscan Ruma (totem for wolf). Does this means the Latins can’t claim Rome?

And again, what if the “proto-Albanians” named the settlements Skodra and Skupi before -sk became -h?

Nobody argues that "shkupi" is proto-Albanian, so you are getting upset based on your own misunderstanding, and not about any argument being made by Matzinger.

The change of Scupi to Shkupi in Albanian is indeed a post-roman phenomenon just like the change of Scodra to Shkodra.

This suggests the name Scupi entered the proto-Albanian vocabulary at the time period that words like Latin. Scuola, Illyrian. Scodra also did.

Meaning this form Scupi entered proto-Albanian only after Romans had entered the Balkans. This might suggest proto-Albanians were even east/north of Shkup in the pre-roman period.

Shkarpë (dry twigs for kindling fire) doesn't come from an Indo-european /sk/ consonant of an inherited ALbanian word, it is a loan from Greek. σκάρφος (skarphos) (dry twigs)

This is a different thing altogether. Shkamb is a loan from latin, like shkollë is from scuola, and shows the roman era sk -> shk phenomenon.

There is no case of indo-european /sk/ that has been found to be /shk/ in Albanian, it is always either a loan or a seperate later construction with an intensive prefix (sh + k) creating a /shk/, never the case that IE. /sk/ produces Albanian. /shk/.

People have been trying to find examples and always end up with loans or later constructions.

If proto-Albanians had named Skodra in a time while /sk/ was still present in Albanian phonetic system, then the accent of Shkodra today would be Hader, since they would have been living there for such a long time that generation after generation the accents would have changed
the form to Hadër.

All the old Gege authors write Natë with an /a/ and Natë is the pan-ALbanian reflex, Notë is most definitely not how most Albanians pronounce it at all, it is totally isolated to regional dialects, and a later development.

proto-Albanians developed an /o/ in the post roman period, but they did not have it in the pre-roman period.

These things have been explained a billion times now, and if you don't understand it, I'm not going to waste my time to explain it for free. I'm not your personal tutor.

If you want to pay me I would be willing to do a private session and one by one explain everything, I too didn't know about sound laws, phonology, etc, a couple of years ago, and can try guide you through to understand why these arguments are being made.

If you do not, then go directly to the sources and read them and find out yourself.

 

[Johane Derite]

Is there anyone here who knows of some linguistic origin theory regarding the word "Xhubleta".

Topalli argues it is a loan from Turkish. cüppe (kaftan dress)

 

[Dushman]

You’re just Matzinger’s broken parrot acting like the holder of the truth.

The other guy here was right, you keep contradicting yourself.

What happened to the “Albanoid triangle” of Nish, Shkup, and Shtip?

I see, now you’re into the Bessi and Trojan origin.

What happened to the vella and lume etymologies? Don’t skip these questions, together with Rome and Athens. You’re too confident and fast to conclude that Proto-Albanians didn’t live near Shkodra and Shkupi. Did Latins live in Rome and Greeks in Athens, Corinth, Parnassus, Larissa, Tyrinth, etc.?

The majority of Ghegs PRONOUNCE it as Notë and not Natë. North Western dialects is knowing to transform ‘o’ to ‘a’.

 

[Johane Derite]

You’re just Matzinger’s broken parrot acting like the holder of the truth.

The other guy here was right, you keep contradicting yourself.

What happened to the “Albanoid triangle” of Nish, Shkup, and Shtip?

I see, now you’re into the Bessi and Trojan origin.

What happened to the vella and lume etymologies? Don’t skip these questions, together with Rome and Athens. You’re too confident and fast to conclude that Proto-Albanians didn’t live near Shkodra and Shkupi. Did Latins live in Rome and Greeks in Athens, Corinth, Parnassus, Larissa, Tyrinth, etc.?

The majority of Ghegs PRONOUNCE it as Notë and not Natë. North Western dialects is knowing to transform ‘o’ to ‘a’.

The Albanoid triangle of Nish, Shkup, and Shtip?

Like I said, Matzinger never argued that, you are getting upset at your own misunderstandings.

Poor memory recall, confusing things like this can be a sign of low mental processing power, reading comprehension, etc.

You seem to have confused Sharr with Shkup in your mind and project your own confusion onto the external world.

You think there are "contradictions" when I am sharing multiple different authors on this issue, who sometimes have differing positions?

No the majority of Ghegs do not pronounce it "Notë", and it is irrelevant given that all the old gege authors write it as Natë.

IE /o/ became /a/ very early in early proto-Albanian history, this is present in countless words, it is a well known sound change.


Matzinger argues that Sharr is a feasible *POSSIBLE* Albanian etymology (not inherited from Skardus) from the Albanian word "sharr" (saw).

However, the catch with this is Albanian sharr is loaned from Latin, so Albanians could have only named it Sharr in the later post-roman period, and then transmitted it to slavs.

So again, there is absolutely zero contradiction here.

Naissus becoming Nish and Astibos becoming Shtip are transformations that require proto-Albanian language and only then entered the slavic language.

So tell me, if proto-Albanians were Illyrians, which Illyrians were living in regions around Nish and Shtip?

 

[Dushman]

Did you just deny the “triangle” thingy calling me names and then went on to prove that our language does exactly come from this region of Dardania?

Or you jumped on the Westward moving Bessi that settled in the aforementioned triangle?

Still no answers for vëlla, lumë, Rome, Athens, Corinth, etc.

And No, the majority of Ghegs say nota, bon (do), koma (leg), etc. Do you even speak Albanian?

It’s enough to count only the Albanians of Kosovo and Macedonia to prove how most Ghegs pronounce words, not to mention how most of the North and Central Albanians do with few exceptions such as Shkodra and Elbasan.

Albanians are known to have retained and not change toponyms chosen by the ruling Empires/kingdoms, namely Greek colonies, Roman Empire, Bulgarian, Serbian, Ottoman, and even Italian.

We still call a place in South Albania Porto Palermo.

[Derite] AcCoRdInG tO pHoNeTiC lAwS Albanians did not live near Porto Palermo 100 years ago [/Derite]

 

[Johane Derite]

Did you just deny the “triangle” thingy calling me names and then went on to prove that our language does exactly come from this region of Dardania?

Or you jumped on the Westward moving Bessi that settled in the aforementioned triangle?

I denied nothing, I showed the exact triangle which is real, and not the fake "Shkupi" claim you made.

The triangle shows toponyms that entered the slavic language via proto-Albanian.

So what this establishes is that when Slavs came, they found a proto-Albanian speaking people in those regions. Were proto-Albanians always in those regions?



Here is a screenshot of you claiming that I or Matzinger was arguing a Nish/Shkup/Shtip triangle.


You were arrogantly posturing as if you had some sort of "good argument" when you didn't even know what you were arguing. The same goes for the rest of your "points".

This is called the dunning-kruger effect, something you exemplify:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning–Kruger_effect?oldformat=true

 

[Johane Derite]

The dude (Matzinger) is so retarded he can’t even figure out the etymology of ‘vëlla’ (brother) and ‘lumë’ (river). Derite can you please show us what he says about vëlla and lumë? I want to laugh a bit with this “scientist”.

Another perfect example of Dunning-Kruger effect in action (The Dunning–Kruger effect is the cognitive bias whereby people with low ability at a task overestimate their ability.)

You (a low ability non-linguist) claim that Matzinger (an esteemed specialist linguist of Albanian, Old ALbanian, Messapic, Illyrian) is so "ret*rded" that he can't figure out the etymology of "vëlla" etc.

But he has done this etymology mulptiple times and it is supported by all contemporary Albanian etymologists?

Another perfect example of some serious reasoning dysfunction. You personally haven't even read Matzinger, but make claims that he can't do this or that?

Again, you should just sit back and listen. If you want private tutoring I will do it for a fee.

You can find analysis of the word vëlla on the highlghted pages.

 

[Dushman]

Also the Alb. word for BROTHER, vëlla, derives from a similar compound (of Indo-European linguistic material) *swe-laud-; swe-slough- ‘own kin’, ‘(from) the same bed’, or similar.

The initial swe- changes regularly to vë- (cf. vëlla ‘brother’ < PIE swe-loudh-; swe-lough- ‘(from) own kin/people’). A PIE intervocalic *s changes also to -h- and an PIE *o changes regularly to a in PAlb (cf. Schumacher-Matzinger 2013: 262; 211).

Ladies and gentleman, we have entered into the real of mental illness.

Vëlla is derived from swe-slough, swe-laud, swe-loudh, swe-….What the actual….?

For people who can’t speak Albanian, vëlla is an artificial Standard Albanian word where the schwa ‘ë’ is silent and is not pronounced BY ANY ALBANIAN DIALECT.

The communist regime in 1972 officially changed the Standard Albanian and FORCED today’s Standard Albanian based the on Tosk dialects.

Even the specific Tosk dialects that put ‘ë’ everywhere for no reason (like Vlora and Labëria dialects) don’t pronounce the ‘ë’ in vëlla. What’s funny is that Vlora region is famous for using the word ‘vlla’ the most. They use vlla (brother) even with females sometimes which is funny.

ALL ALBANIANS say just ‘vlla’. End of story.

Why swe-slough when you have Illyrian ‘bra’ for brother, corresponding to so many Indo-European roots like broder, frater, phrater, brat, etc.?

How difficult is it for your brain to arrive at the conclusion that b -> v and r -> ll?

Albanians use both ‘brima’ and ‘vrima’ (both meaning ‘hole’), and Albanians use both ‘hislla/islla’ and ‘hithra’ for ‘nettle’.

 

[Johane Derite]

Also the Alb. word for BROTHER, vëlla, derives from a similar compound (of Indo-European linguistic material) *swe-laud-; swe-slough- ‘own kin’, ‘(from) the same bed’, or similar.

The initial swe- changes regularly to vë- (cf. vëlla ‘brother’ < PIE swe-loudh-; swe-lough- ‘(from) own kin/people’). A PIE intervocalic *s changes also to -h- and an PIE *o changes regularly to a in PAlb (cf. Schumacher-Matzinger 2013: 262; 211).

Ladies and gentleman, we have entered into the real of mental illness.

Vëlla is derived from swe-slough, swe-laud, swe-loudh, swe-….What the actual….?

For people who can’t speak Albanian, vëlla is an artificial Standard Albanian word where the schwa ‘ë’ is silent and is not pronounced BY ANY ALBANIAN DIALECT.

The communist regime in 1972 officially changed the Standard Albanian and FORCED today’s Standard Albanian based the on Tosk dialects.

Even the specific Tosk dialects that put ‘ë’ everywhere for no reason (like Vlora and Labëria dialects) don’t pronounce the ‘ë’ in vëlla. What’s funny is that Vlora region is famous for using the word ‘vlla’ the most. They use vlla (brother) even with females sometimes which is funny.

ALL ALBANIANS say just ‘vlla’. End of story.

Why swe-slough when you have Illyrian ‘bra’ for brother, corresponding to so many Indo-European roots like broder, frater, phrater, brat, etc.?

How difficult is it for your brain to arrive at the conclusion that b -> v and r -> ll?

Albanians use both ‘brima’ and ‘vrima’ (both meaning ‘hole’), and Albanians use both ‘hislla/islla’ and ‘hithra’ for ‘nettle’.

Wow, fantastic, more examples of Dunning-Kruger effect in action. Very low ability contrasted with lack of self-awareness shining through

So you think that the Tosks of 1972 secretly forced the Gegë Buzuku in 1555 to write: "Vëlla të engjalletë".

Simply put your idea is crap and wrong. Deal with it.

The ë in Vëlla is lost in Gegë because Gegë loses the ë which is archaic, while Tosk retains it. Compare Kalaja e Leks in Gegë which in Tosk would be Kalaja e Lekës.

Vlla doesn't come from "Bra".

How cringe that this was your big setup and its entirely wrong.

 

[Dushman]

The next proof of how doomed we are as Albanians to be represented by such linguists is lumë (river) and lule (flower). Let’s start with the versions produced by mental illnesses or lack of knowledge:

Words referring to large streams and their banks tend to be loans, but lumë ("river") is NATIVE.

Lumë - From Proto-Albanian *lumā, from Proto-Indo-European *leu(ə) (“dirt”). Etymologically identical with Ancient Greek λῦμα (lûma, “dirt”) (Greek λύμα(lýma)).^[1]

Guys, lumë comes from DIRT. Jesus Christ, the Italian word ‘fiume’ is right there screaming to be picked as a hint.

Fiume comes from Latin flumen - From fluō (“I flow”) +‎ -men (noun-forming suffix).

What conclusion does an intelligent brain comes to? DIRT or FLOW?

In a similar fashion where the initial ‘f’ falls is the hint that a professional linguist should take from Italian ‘fiore’ (flower), derived from Latin florem, from flos - A root noun interpreted as an s-stem noun, from Proto-Italic *flōs, from Proto-Indo-European *bʰleh₃-s (“flower, blossom”), from *bʰleh₃- (“to bloom”). Cognates include Ancient Greek φύλλον (phúllon), Gothic 𐌱𐌻𐍉𐌼𐌰 (blōma) and Old English blōstm, blæd(“leaf”) (English blossom, blade).

Isn't it obvious that Albanian ‘lule’ comes from ‘florem’ where just like lume and flumen the initial ‘f’ falls and ‘r’ becomes ‘l’ in Albanian just like bra -> vlla?

Check what I’m supposed to believe and take for granted:

Lule - Singularised plural of *lulë, from Proto-Albanian*lulā. An ancient Balkan loanword from an oriental source.

 

[Dushman]

Wow, fantastic, more examples of Dunning-Kruger effect in action. Very low ability contrasted with lack of self-awareness shining through

So you think that the Tosks of 1972 secretly forced the Gegë Buzuku in 1555 to write: "Vëlla të engjalletë".

Simply put your idea is crap and wrong. Deal with it.

The ë in Vëlla is lost in Gegë because Gegë loses the ë which is archaic, while Tosk retains it. Compare Kalaja e Leks in Gegë which in Tosk would be Kalaja e Lekës.

Vlla doesn't come from "Bra".

How cringe that this was your big setup and its entirely wrong.

Vlla doesn’t come from bra but from swe-slough? Lol, I’m done with this. It takes me months to recover from crap like this but it pisses me off you’re contributing so much to a page dedicated to Albanian.

Go live your Dardano-Trojan fantasy, Agenor son of Antenor, descendant of the Bessoi, speaker of Dardano-Phrygo-Makedono-Thessalo-Arcadian.

 

[Johane Derite]

Vlla doesn’t come from bra but from swe-slough? Lol, I’m done with this. It takes me months to recover from crap like this but it pisses me off you’re contributing so much to a page dedicated to Albanian.

Go live your Dardano-Trojan fantasy, Agenor son of Antenor, descendant of the Bessoi, speaker of Dardano-Phrygo-Makedono-Thessalo-Arcadian.

Vlla comes from earlier Vëlla which comes from proto-Albanian. *uelae which comes from earlier proto-Albanian. *ue-ladze which comes from an earlier proto-Albanian. *hue-lade which comes from indo-european. sue-loudha

The reason this is known by linguists is because of the obvious form of the indefinite nominative/accusative plural of vëlla which is vëllezër in Tosk and vëllazën in Old Gegë.

The /z/ in vëllezër came from proto-Albanian dz.

Vëllazen came from proto-Albanian *ue-ladzeni

Nothing to do with Bras or any other undergarments.

 

[Dushman]

Brain Switch-off Protocol Initiated for vlla:

[h=2]Edit[/h][h=3]EtymologyEdit[/h]Uncertain.
1) From Proto-Albanian *swe-laudā, *swe representing the reflexive *u (“self”), and *lauda, from Proto-Indo-European *h₁lewdʰ- (“man, people”), thus meaning belonging to the same people.^[1]
2) From *vëllaz (in plural (Gheg) vëllazën), from *waládža, from Proto-Albanian *(a)waládja, metathesis of *awádlja, from Proto-Indo-European*h₂euh₂ó-dʰli̯os (“mother's brother”). Same sense development as motër (“sister”), from *méh₂treh₂(“mother's sister”).
3) From Proto-Albanian **h₁lewdʰ-, Possibly < *uai-láu(d) (< *suoi- h1loudhi-), an old compound with the reflexive pronoun ve(të) (“own, self”). The plural stem *vəɫaz- (> vëllezër / vëllazën) can be derived phonetically from *laudźi-.^[2] Possibly related to Phrygian vela (vela, “family, relatives”). A connection to Finnish veli, Estonian veli (“brother”) (see Proto-Finnic *velji) has been proposed, although this is improbable.