WASPs as a standard for Whiteness

[Jovialis]

and? those bronze age cultures were not all the same either and no matter if europeans all are a mixture of them, it doesn't change the fact that the genetic distance between europeans can be bigger than between europeans and people from the near east.

if you want to make a geographical grouping and describe the genetic profile or the boundaries of the genetic compostion of european populations then your approach makes sense, but if you want to base the idea of an exclusive european racial group "white" on it, it just won't make sense.
how did these bronze age cultures become "white" or the same race as modern europeans? if they were not white or the same race, why does any sort of mixture of those population lead to "white" people or the same race? why do the modern genetic relations not matter in this?

I see my bakery analogy is lost on you as well. "How do you make a cake, when the ingredients aren't also cake? What are you using flower, water, sugar, and calling it one thing, it's so different"

 

[Jovialis]

Your failure to convey is not only annoying, it is contemptible. It is a disruption.

 

[Ailchu]

I see my bakery analogy is lost on you as well. "How do you make a cake, when the ingredients aren't also cake? What are you using flower, water, sugar, and calling it one thing, it's so different"

i take a piece of bread and smear some butter on it. then i take a big junk of butter and add some bread crumbs. are those things just two different kinds of buttered bread for you?

now we also have a piece of bread with marmelade on it. i would rather group the piece of bread with the butter on it together with the marmelade bread than with the big piece of butter that is sprinkled with bread crumbs.

 

[Jovialis]

You have been banned for one week so you may reflect on your behavior.

 

[EV13SON]

I'll try and give this a crack with my thoughts...WASP was not so much just tied to whiteness, it meant that not only did you have to be white to be an American citizen but you also had to be Protestant. England and Scotland were not able to agree to a singular Protestant faith but they had at least stamped out Catholicism and were keen to prevent it from having any foothold in their country. I think most of these "WASP" view of white was also rooted in their Anglo Saxon heritage, they definitely demonized the Catholic Irish and would not consider them white have you ever been to Ireland their pale as ghost!...I would imagine many "Anglo Saxons" were not quite fond of the Scots but at least a good majority of Scots became fervent Protestants so they got a pass and they were good for throwing at the Natives... I would Imagine the vast majority of these "WASP" would not have considered Spanish, Italic, Greek, Balkan, Slavic, peoples as "white" even if they checked off fair skin and eyes category, if they were not Protestant they were probably regarded as a mutt. On the other hand if you were a black haired dark eyed Protestant Englishman or Scotsman, I imagine you were considered white but again keep a close eye on the Scotsman . The United Kingdom and Scotland seemed to be more racist during these civil wars especially if a Monarch married a Spanish or French Catholic forget it, they chased out the Stewarts and beheaded Queen Mary. Most racist find a way to eliminate people from their list as mentioned in other posts. If we left it to mother nature certain areas are going to favor certain phenotypes and if you want to create more white people from darker people just have them go on an all grain diet and deprive them of some vitamin D . Some of those "WASP" could have very much have carried a marker from an African male long ago and appear completely white by the time they signed the Declaration of Independence due to admixtures over long periods with a majority white phenotype. I understand it can be a big part of identity more so in regions where you don't get much sun, but I think even if you were to pick a magic mixture of DNA and say ok that is the perfect white formula it is still going to be subjective to culture religion and language.

 

[Angela]

I'll try and give this a crack with my thoughts...WASP was not so much just tied to whiteness, it meant that not only did you have to be white to be an American citizen but you also had to be Protestant. England and Scotland were not able to agree to a singular Protestant faith but they had at least stamped out Catholicism and were keen to prevent it from having any foothold in their country. I think most of these "WASP" view of white was also rooted in their Anglo Saxon heritage, they definitely demonized the Catholic Irish and would not consider them white have you ever been to Ireland their pale as ghost!...I would imagine many "Anglo Saxons" were not quite fond of the Scots but at least a good majority of Scots became fervent Protestants so they got a pass and they were good for throwing at the Natives... I would Imagine the vast majority of these "WASP" would not have considered Spanish, Italic, Greek, Balkan, Slavic, peoples as "white" even if they checked off fair skin and eyes category, if they were not Protestant they were probably regarded as a mutt. On the other hand if you were a black haired dark eyed Protestant Englishman or Scotsman, I imagine you were considered white but again keep a close eye on the Scotsman . The United Kingdom and Scotland seemed to be more racist during these civil wars especially if a Monarch married a Spanish or French Catholic forget it, they chased out the Stewarts and beheaded Queen Mary. Most racist find a way to eliminate people from their list as mentioned in other posts. If we left it to mother nature certain areas are going to favor certain phenotypes and if you want to create more white people from darker people just have them go on an all grain diet and deprive them of some vitamin D . Some of those "WASP" could have very much have carried a marker from an African male long ago and appear completely white by the time they signed the Declaration of Independence due to admixtures over long periods with a majority white phenotype. I understand it can be a big part of identity more so in regions where you don't get much sun, but I think even if you were to pick a magic mixture of DNA and say ok that is the perfect white formula it is still going to be subjective to culture religion and language.

Precisely so, and the Irish are a perfect example of how that worked in the U.S. An entire political party, the No Nothings, was formed largely in reaction to Irish Catholic migration to the U.S. The "No Irish Need Apply" signs were ubiquitous for a long time in the U.S.

 

[Jovialis]

Okay, than in my OP it asked if "whiteness" exists, so I guess the answer must be No, or only for WASPs because they're protestant. I guess somebody better tell Joe Biden, that he is not even a white man, since he is Irish, and he better stop wasting tax money on looking for people thinking they are Supremacists for an imaginary, or extremely exclusive niche. Or perhaps he should just target individuals of English ancestry.

 

[Jovialis]

Everyone else in Europe, is some unknown amorphous mass of humanity with nothing that binds them. They have no race, they have no peoplehood. Italians and other southern Europeans must be one and the same as Arabs, as the great scholar Alichu pointed out. The Irish are not white because they believe in the wrong religion. South Germans must be one in the same as Puerto Ricans because Benjamin Franklin, who could not even imagine the concept of genetics, said they're not white enough. Even despite aDNA evidence, all of these things must be true, and completely in vouge. I guess not being a WASP must make me a BI-POC. Ibram X. Kendi would be so proud of this revelation.

Thank you all for your insightful contributions. Case closed.

 

[Angela]

The definition of WASP is White, Anglo-Saxon PROTESTANT, yes?

That's how American citizens in the 1800s, to use the Irish example, defined themselves, and it was the standard which was used to define the people who were entitled to the highest status in the U.S.

Being "white" was only one aspect or necessary attribute.

Southern Italians, Portuguese etc. were indeed treated as badly and sometimes more badly than the Irish. Off-hand I can't remember any Irish people who were lynched, as were Italians in New Orleans, and the Irish are the "whitest" people in Europe if you're going by skin color.

I don't understand what that has to do with genetics and the obvious fact that the Irish and the Italians and Portuguese and Greeks are all Europeans and that they are different genetically, not just culturally, from modern Middle Easterners.

 

[Angela]

It's true that no one quarreled with the idea that the WASPs were "White", so it's interesting to see their autosomal make-up.

Diving a little deeper, the current Americans who are closest genetically to the old British Colonial Stock are probably CEU, the Mormon's of Utah, which is ironic because they are anathema to modern Protestants Americans.

Maybe, if you're interested, you might want to model them and see how they look and plot.