Where does the Albanian language come from? [VIDEO]

[PaleoRevenge]

There is indeed evidence of Catholic Northern Albanians from Mirdita and other regions to have settled there. Most of J2b-L283 among Tosks is under 631, other groups like North East Greeks and Aromanians might also have "increased" it. The near total absence of J2b-L283 in Arvanites and Tosks is a perfect "modern" example of why J2b-L283 cannot be linked to the ancestors of Proto-Albanians in any way.

It's a big giveaway. The fact that J2b or I2a-Dinaric or R1a did not travel with the Arvanites or Arberesh, despite that these people had to have moved through southern Albania shows, that J2b has a similar story to I2a-Dinaric and R1a. These haplogroups merged with the Albanian nation after the 1300-1400s. Before that, they were treated as anasi, subject to raids and tribute payments.

 

[enter_tain]

You are not history, you are not linguistics or archeology. You are just a IQ deficient prole.

In the usual sloppy self, you even argued that J2b in north Albania is over inflated by some "lottery" event. So clumsy and sloppy that you ended up making the point Albanians are really even less Illyrian (J2b), while the aim was to prove we are "da real Illyrians n shieet". I wipe my @ss with your type with no effort. Kuptove pleraxhi?

O malok koketrashe. Thashe EV-13. Ik shiko kullotet e bagetive andej nga malet dhe bolle u hoqe si intelektuale.

 

[enter_tain]

The Proto-Albanian language originated in the mountains, away from the coasts, somewhere along the Jiricek line. J2b2 just so happens to be most frequent, on the nearby mountains straddling this line. Coincidence? I think not. Just because the haplogroups E-V13 and R1b are more widespread, doesn't mean it isn't linked with the ancestors of Proto-Albanians.

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If you don't feel Albanian as a J2b2 descendant, then that's your problem. The rest of us J2b2 Albanians do, because we know we are!

The latest batch of samples from Greece prove Doric Greeks and Proto-Albanians were essentially the same population autosomally.

Proto-Albanians = Modern Albanians minus some Slavic Ancestry. That plots identical to Doric Greeks.

The Albanian ethos is genetically/culturally/linguistically tied to the Dorians like Spartans and Macedonians. The earliest loanwords in Albanian are actually from Doric Greek, meaning they lived next to each other.

These guys are inventing new populations somewhere in the Central Balkans where Celtic speakers lived, that magically plot the same as modern Greeks. It's mostly Kosovars who are desperate to stay relevant that don't realize Kosovo's Y-DNA frequency has nothing to do with the ancient world, since >70% of Kosovars moved there a few hundred years ago.

 

[PaleoRevenge]

O malok koketrashe. Thashe EV-13. Ik shiko kullotet e bagetive andej nga malet dhe bolle u hoqe si intelektuale.

Bagtit e mija ti hash bajgen, te gezohesh qe han ku shkel kemba ime. Nga je, Kurveleshi i hashishit?

No one is misunderstanding you. Everyone is laughing at your claim EV-13 = Illyrians. It's retarded.

 

[PaleoRevenge]

The Proto-Albanian language originated in the mountains, away from the coasts, somewhere along the Jiricek line. J2b2 just so happens to be most frequent, on the nearby mountains straddling this line. Coincidence? I think not. Just because the haplogroups E-V13 and R1b are more widespread, doesn't mean it isn't linked with the ancestors of Proto-Albanians.

View attachment 13229 View attachment 13230

If you don't feel Albanian as a J2b2 descendant, then that's your problem. The rest of us J2b2 Albanians do, because we know we are!

Those red areas(minus Kosovo which is a recent expansion) is actually extremely close to the coast.

 

[enter_tain]

No one is misunderstanding you. Everyone is laughing at your claim EV-13 = Illyrians. It's retarded.

Everyone is laughing at your autism. My arguments is that 1 Y-DNA =/= 1 ethnicity. "Illyrians" by the end of the Iron Age would have had multiple Y-DNAs, with %s varying region by region.

That's how Y-DNAs work in small populations. One town has different Y-DNAs then the next town over. You expect over 4000 thousand years in Europe's crossroads that is the Balkans, that 1 population is magically going to have 1 or 2 Y-DNAs only.

 

[PaleoRevenge]

Everyone is laughing at your autism. My arguments is that 1 Y-DNA =/= 1 ethnicity. "Illyrians" by the end of the Iron Age would have had multiple Y-DNAs, with %s varying region by region.

That's how Y-DNAs work in small populations. One town has different Y-DNAs then the next town over. You expect over 4000 thousand years in Europe's crossroads that is the Balkans, that 1 population is magically going to have 1 or 2 Y-DNAs only.

That's not how it works. Learn to talk kid. You can't frame yourself as an ambassador of authority. Science does not reside in your mouth and just agrees with anything you want to spew out. If you want to talk to people, don't use that false menu method. People are not restricted to chose your fake options.

Illyrians = J2b. If some frontier population is a mixed bag, that's because they are a .......... frontier population, a creole and not the true representatives of the core Illyrian corpus. We already have proof that in Dalmatia there was only one haplogroup with maybe a R1b minority as well. Your claim is based on modern day conditions, urban dwelling and mixing. In IE times, it was Conan the Barbarian society. Clans, kinship, patriarchy, brawling it out for territory.

I don't know if anyone told you, but civilization is very recent.

 

[enter_tain]

That's not how it works. Learn to talk kid. You can't frame yourself as an ambassador of authority. Science does not reside in your mouth and just agrees with anything you want to spew out. If you want to talk to people, don't use that false menu method. People are not restricted to chose your fake options.

Illyrians = J2b. If some frontier population is a mixed bag, that's because they are a .......... frontier population, a creole and not the true representatives of the core Illyrian corpus. We already have proof that in Dalmatia there was only one haplogroup with maybe a R1b minority as well. Your claim is based on modern day conditions, urban dwelling and mixing. In IE times, it was Conan the Barbarian society. Clans, kinship, patriarchy, brawling it out for territory.

I don't know if anyone told you, but civilization is very recent.

Illyrians are not J2b. Proto-Illyrians are heavily J2b, but there is 3000 to 4000 years difference between the Proto-Illyrians that lived in Central/Eastern Europe to the Byzantine Illyrians in Albania that lived in 500 AD before the Slavic Migrations.

Modern Albanians are not 1 haplogroup. There is no reason why Proto-Albanians who lived right before Slavic migrations should be 1 Y-DNA. This is unrealistic, childish, and a perfect example of haplobro science.

 

[torzio]

Illyrians are not J2b. Proto-Illyrians are heavily J2b, but there is 3000 to 4000 years difference between the Proto-Illyrians that lived in Central/Eastern Europe to the Byzantine Illyrians in Albania that lived in 500 AD before the Slavic Migrations.

Modern Albanians are not 1 haplogroup. There is no reason why Proto-Albanians who lived right before Slavic migrations should be 1 Y-DNA. This is unrealistic, childish, and a perfect example of haplobro science.

According to the dating of the samples of these ancient J-L283 in croatia, Slovenia and Dalmatia .......there is no option except they are Illyrian

I do not know why you bring up Byzantine times which is AD times.......by this time any Illyrians where already Romanized or sent anywhere in the empire as troops.............Illyrians failed to exist in Byzantine period............they basically failed to exist as an entity after the Great Illyrian revolt in early AD times .....................there is no point in mentioning them, they disappeared from the world like the Venetics disappeared by 50BC under Rome

 

[Illyria]

According to the dating of the samples of these ancient J-L283 in croatia, Slovenia and Dalmatia .......there is no option except they are Illyrian

I do not know why you bring up Byzantine times which is AD times.......by this time any Illyrians where already Romanized or sent anywhere in the empire as troops.............Illyrians failed to exist in Byzantine period............they basically failed to exist as an entity after the Great Illyrian revolt in early AD times .....................there is no point in mentioning them, they disappeared from the world like the Venetics disappeared by 50BC under Rome

Here you go torzio, read it and weep.

With the disintegration of the Roman Empire, Gothic and Hunnic tribes raided the Balkan peninsula, forcing many Illyrians to seek refuge in the highlands.^{[citation needed]} In 395 AD, the Roman Empire was split upon the death of Theodosius I into an Eastern and Western Roman Empire, in part due to the weakening and increasing pressure from threats during the Barbarian Invasions, therefore, Illyria remained in the eastern empire which was later referred to as the Byzantine Empire.^{[citation needed]}The early Byzantine Empire was predominantly ruled by emperors from the Balkan Peninsula with Byzantine emperors of Illyrian origin, amongst them Constantine the Great, Jovian, Valentinian I, Anastasius I Dicorus, Justinian I and their descendants from the Constantinian dynasty, Valentinianic dynasty and Justinian dynasty.^{[78][79][80][81][82]}
From the 6th century ongoing into the 7th century, the Slavs crossed the Danube and started to absorb the indigenous Illyrians alongside the Ancient Greeks, Dacians and Thracians into the emerging medieval states of the Slavs such as that of the Croats and Serbs. The term Illyrians last appears in the historical record in the 7th century AD, in the Miracula Sancti Demetrii, referring to a Byzantine garrison operating within the former Roman province of Illyricum.^[6][83] However, in the acts of the Second Council of Nicaea from 787, Nikephoros of Durrës signed himself as "Episcopus of Durrës, province of the Illyrians".^[84]
Since the Middle Ages the term "Illyrian" has been used principally in connection with the Albanians, although it was also used to describe the western wing of the Southern Slavs up to the 19th century,^[85] being revived in particular during the Habsburg monarchy.^[86][87] In Byzantine literature, references to Illyria as a defined region in administrative terms end after 1204 and the term specifically began to refer only to the more confined Albanian territory.^[88]

By the way torzio, I have a very important question for you, but don't think too hard. I see a lot of your posts you discuss the Illyrians being J-L283, something we can all agree on. In this post you say the Illyrians vanished long ago. Can you tell me where J-L283 is highest today in modern times? I think this will be a very shocking discovery for you.........

 

[mount123]

According to the dating of the samples of these ancient J-L283 in croatia, Slovenia and Dalmatia .......there is no option except they are Illyrian

I do not know why you bring up Byzantine times which is AD times.......by this time any Illyrians where already Romanized or sent anywhere in the empire as troops.............Illyrians failed to exist in Byzantine period............they basically failed to exist as an entity after the Great Illyrian revolt in early AD times .....................there is no point in mentioning them, they disappeared from the world like the Venetics disappeared by 50BC under Rome

He is an Albanian nationalistic troll account with false info in his bio. He also is not J2b-L283 in case you are wondering. He has multiple puppet accounts on this forum where he basically claims the whole world and every haplogroup is Albanian .

 

[mount123]

The Proto-Albanian language originated in the mountains, away from the coasts, somewhere along the Jiricek line. J2b2 just so happens to be most frequent, on the nearby mountains straddling this line. Coincidence? I think not. Just because the haplogroups E-V13 and R1b are more widespread, doesn't mean it isn't linked with the ancestors of Proto-Albanians.

View attachment 13229 View attachment 13230

If you don't feel Albanian as a J2b2 descendant, then that's your problem. The rest of us J2b2 Albanians do, because we know we are!

In the mountains of the Nish-Shtip complex yes lol. I think we finally understand each other.

J2b-L283 also being heavy in some Catholic areas coincidence ehmmm nope? That too I'd argue might have helped it maintaining its existence in the medieval after the Slavic and Proto-Albanian migration (Notice how the Arbereshe are of the Byzantine rite aka Orthodox...they dont have any J2b-L283 maybe one person haha) so many coincidences indeed.

Nika guy marrying Gojcaj girl vice versa Spaci marrying Camaj etc. Back in the days that is how stuff went down.

Whatever you choose to identify with is up to you and not on me to decide.

 

[mount123]

Since both of these ancient L283 Tunisians are under Z38240 (as well as 1 under PH1602), these samples must ultimately trace back to the western Balkans somewhere.

https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z38240/

There is one modern Sardinian under Z38240 and no modern or ancient Sardinians under Z38241 or PH1602. Z38240 in Italy is found predominantly in northern or north central Italy (CTS6190) as well as in southeastern Italy around Bari and territories settled by Messapic speakers. If these samples have ties to Sicily, then maybe Messapian peoples could be the ultimate source?

https://phylogeographer.com/scripts/heatmap.php

Thanks for for the correct info. They supposedly are part of the "Sicilian" cluster. Since they fall under Z38240 or PH1602 Messapians are definitely a possible source too. So they ultimately trace back to the ancient Western Balkans, yet again (not a surprise).

 

[Hawk]

IMO, they were part of Sea People, no wonder they migrated in Late Bronze Age, Bronze to Iron Age transition, there was a domino effect going on, people pushing others and joining in piracy plundering richer Eastern and Southern Mediterranean regions until Pharaoh Ramsess III annihilated most of them at the Battle of Delta by ambushing them on the shores of Nile river.

 

[Riverman]

IMO, they were part of Sea People, no wonder they migrated in Late Bronze Age, Bronze to Iron Age transition, there was a domino effect going on, people pushing others and joining in piracy plundering richer Eastern and Southern Mediterranean regions until Pharaoh Ramsess III annihilated most of them at the Battle of Delta by ambushing them on the shores of Nile river.

It's noteworthy that some Urnfielder groups had sea/Adriatic and Italian connections, especially some of those in the South East. Two movements, one from the West, the other from the North (G?va). We see weapons and tools coming from the West Mediterranean in areas like Greece.

 

[PaleoRevenge]

In Justanian period there are two Thracian brothers from north-east Bulgaria that were generals in the Byzantine army.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bouzes
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coutzes

Buze and Kuqi. Reminiscent to the early Arberesh names.

 

[Dibran]

In Justanian period there are two Thracian brothers from north-east Bulgaria that were generals in the Byzantine army.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bouzes
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coutzes
Buze and Kuqi. Reminiscent to the early Arberesh names.

Is there any actual evidence they are etymologically linked to the Albanian phrases(regardless of similarity)??

 

[torzio]

Here you go torzio, read it and weep.
By the way torzio, I have a very important question for you, but don't think too hard. I see a lot of your posts you discuss the Illyrians being J-L283, something we can all agree on. In this post you say the Illyrians vanished long ago. Can you tell me where J-L283 is highest today in modern times? I think this will be a very shocking discovery for you.........

I don't understand your question.............I care little for where modern ydna or MtDna is found today.............there is too much migration from the end of the Roman period to really say who is who and where they are from.
If you want to state what people/nations thought in the 19th century and beyond on where Illyria was in Europe , then we can start with Napoleon and the new world order and what the Monarchies of Europe thought

This is the last time that Illyria is noted as a entity ................it does not mean that Illyians as a people existed though.
In regards to J-L283 .............the marker makes sense with belongs to Illyrian tribes in modern croatia and slovenia...............the proof is there ..............the Foggia italy L283 are Daunians , who came from Iapodes in southern slovenia and northern croatia...............the Venosa L283 sample next door is a Samnite, could easily be a Daunian trader ............I don't know why you deny these ancient ydna burials

 

[torzio]

Here you go torzio, read it and weep.



By the way torzio, I have a very important question for you, but don't think too hard. I see a lot of your posts you discuss the Illyrians being J-L283, something we can all agree on. In this post you say the Illyrians vanished long ago. Can you tell me where J-L283 is highest today in modern times? I think this will be a very shocking discovery for you.........

where these Illyrian emperors known as Illyrian or Dalmatian ?

history of Illyria under Rome

Somewhere between 20 and 50 CE, Illyricum was split into llyricum Superior and Illyricum Inferior, the upper and lower halfs of the province. The governor of Upper Illyricum resided in Salona on the Adriatic coast, while his colleague in Lower Illyricum preferred one of the military camps along the Middle Danube. During the reign of the emperor Vespasian (r.69-79), the two provinces were renamed Dalmatia and Pannonia.

The term Illyricum seemed to have disappeared by Vespasian times

 

[Trojet]

A quick recap of what has been proposed and is in line with genetic and linguistic evidence that has been presented.
Proto-Albanoid descents from the culture block of EV-13 (supplemented with R1b fellow travelers).
Before Illyrians invade in 1200 BC, most of Albania and Kosovo belonged to a similar cultural and genetic group, which was further related to what is called the Daco-Thracian zone, but was an earlier off shoot.
When Illyrians invade they push these people to Italy(Messapians) and even chase them there as Daunians settle north of Messapians. Messapians are clearly related to the Dardani, Dauni are related to Illyrians....................................................

No, there is no such genetic evidence to date. Care to elaborate your "genetic evidence"? Shouldn't expect much since you can't even properly spell E-V13. You obviously are rooting for your own haplo to be the "Proto-Albanian" lineage, just like many kids in these forums (unless you are mount123).

It's very unlikely, if not impossible, that Proto-Albanians belonged to one or even two lineages.
Modern frequencies are a result of bottlenecks and founder effects, and we surely can't take the Arbëreshë and Arvanits of today as a model of what Proto-Albanian lineages looked like in the past. And yes, as is the case with some of the other haplogroups, they do have some of the same J2b-L283 subclades that are found among both Ghegs and Tosks (ex. J-Y82533, J-PH1751). Furthermore, I've seen absolutely no evidence that J2b-L283 subclades amongst Albanians entered our ethnogenesis "late".