Where does the Albanian language come from? [VIDEO]

[Riverman]

Yes, the mention of Brygi within Illyrian lands by ancient authors proves that there were at the least two different language stratums within the territory of Albania. (Illyrian and Brygian).

If the Brygians were not from channeled ware but rather an older stratum (phrygian is close to greek, not a greek dialect though) that was pushed south and into anatolia during the channeled ware migrations,
then we may have to reckon with at least three different stratums of languages, the Illyrian, Brygian, and the Channelled Ware Thracoid language?

I remember an interesting argument by Aspar that the middle bronze age Brnjica culture was pushed by channeled ware more south in territories where Paeonians would later show up. Georgiev believed the Paeonian and Phrygian languages to be more closely related.

It is far more unclear than these propagandists who are trying to push their agendas are trying to make it out.

For example, they refer to the Taulanti name as being Albanian related, but this is literally where the channeled ware influence shows up in Albania, also where Brygians show up. So was this name from the Brygian or Channeled Ware influence or from the earlier stratum of J2b-l283 language people?

Likewise, they claim that I'm trying to push some sort of Kosova agenda, when I couldn't give less of a crap about this, they project their low intentions on to me, since that is how they operate and can't think beyond themselves.

Neither Nish or Shtip are in Kosova, I'm interested in finding the truth of which region the Albanian language came from, whereas they have the obsession to make sure it falls within the territory of Albania or Illyria by any means necessary (manipulation, lying, slander, etc).

In some areas into which Channelled Ware pushed, we have an interesting phenomenon: The (at that time) local Brnjica people moved up to the hills, built fortified hilltop settlements, whereas the incoming Channelled Ware people settled in the lowlands. We can also, very clearly, see that there were contacts between these two people, which lived in the EIA side by side. Like Channelled Ware pottery and goods being found in those hilltop forts.
The situation might have been similar to that of Vlachs/Albanians and Slavs. At first the Slavs rushed in, took the best parts of the country, but the locals had to relocate and adapt to a more hidden, better defensible position. However, in those very hilly areas, contrary to say the open lands along the Danube, the locals could persist and in theory its very hard to say who came out on top.

The logical conclusion, if we see in the pre-Illyrian people of the region e.g. Brygi, Paeonians and Thracians side by side, is that that non-Thracians likely being those LBA locals which relocated to the hills, and which, in some areas, came out on top.

In any case we definitely deal with a lot of substrate and adstrate phenomenons in and around Albania, that much is very clear.

Like Illyrians in some parts of the Adriatic coast made tabula rase, same for Thracians in some areas along the Danube. But again in other areas, it was more complicated with mixtures on top of mixtures and pushing forth and back. The Dardanians for example are very clearly not the typical Illyrians at all, but a complex fusion of different people in which the Illyrian elite element just turned out dominant.

Compare these two maps:

It would make sense that the Brygi/Phrygians, if being closer to Greco-Armenian, would have R-Z2103. Therefore we had in and around the Dardanians three groups of significance:
- Thracians: E-V13
- Illyrians: J-L283
- Brygi: R-Z2103

Hypothetical, but can be tested.

 

[Pashai Janinës]

Many of those like Delminium are not accepted by current linguists as being related to Albanian dele, while some like Taulanti are ethnically and linguistically mixed regions.



Why do you ignore linguistic examples from the east though which are far more numerous?:


Dacian. Amalusta [camomile]
Albanian. Ambël [sweet]

Dacian. Drubetis [placename]
Albanian. Dru [wood]

Dacian. Zermisirga [placename]
Albanian. Zjerm [fire]

Dacian. Karpates [Placename of Mountain]
Albanian. Karpë [rocky hill]

Dacian. Mantia [blackberry]
Albanian. Man [blackberry]

Dacian. Polondova, later Pelendova [placename]
Albanian. Pelë [mare] from proto-Albanian *pōl-nā,

Dacian. Patavissa [placename]
Albanian. Vis [locality, place]

Dacian. Maluensis [placename]
Albanian. Mal [mountain]

"Daco-Mysian." Ouendenis/Vindenis [placename in Eastern Dardania]
Albanian. vend [place, location]

Daco-Mysian. Vetespios/Ouetespios [epithet of a god]
Albanian. Vetë [self, person]

Dacian. Diegis [personal name of King]
Albanian. Djeg [burn]

Thracian. Diegulis [personal name of King]
Albanian. Djeg [burn]

Dacian. Burebista [personal name of King]
Albanian. Burrë [man]

Thracian. Mezenai (horseman)
Albanian. Mëz (foal)

Thracian. Dreneos [personal name]
Albanian. Dren [deer]

Dacian. Buri [Tribe name]
Albanian. Burrë [man]

I don't see any connection between the Dacian words and the Albanian ones. Are these examples cited by scholarly books or are we facing another case of "do it yourself" etymology?

 

[Johane Derite]

In some areas into which Channelled Ware pushed, we have an interesting phenomenon: The (at that time) local Brnjica people moved up to the hills, built fortified hilltop settlements, whereas the incoming Channelled Ware people settled in the lowlands. We can also, very clearly, see that there were contacts between these two people, which lived in the EIA side by side. Like Channelled Ware pottery and goods being found in those hilltop forts.
The situation might have been similar to that of Vlachs/Albanians and Slavs. At first the Slavs rushed in, took the best parts of the country, but the locals had to relocate and adapt to a more hidden, better defensible position. However, in those very hilly areas, contrary to say the open lands along the Danube, the locals could persist and in theory its very hard to say who came out on top.

The logical conclusion, if we see in the pre-Illyrian people of the region e.g. Brygi, Paeonians and Thracians side by side, is that that non-Thracians likely being those LBA locals which relocated to the hills, and which, in some areas, came out on top.

In any case we definitely deal with a lot of substrate and adstrate phenomenons in and around Albania, that much is very clear.

Like Illyrians in some parts of the Adriatic coast made tabula rase, same for Thracians in some areas along the Danube. But again in other areas, it was more complicated with mixtures on top of mixtures and pushing forth and back. The Dardanians for example are very clearly not the typical Illyrians at all, but a complex fusion of different people in which the Illyrian elite element just turned out dominant.

Compare these two maps:

It would make sense that the Brygi/Phrygians, if being closer to Greco-Armenian, would have R-Z2103. Therefore we had in and around the Dardanians three groups of significance:
- Thracians: E-V13
- Illyrians: J-L283
- Brygi: R-Z2103

Hypothetical, but can be tested.

Yes, i think something like this also may be possible.

I think Dardanian could also possibly be a R1b-Z2103 language like Phrygian, but a more northern dialect, that was pushed south and into troy in the channeled ware era, but was possibly neither Illyrian nor Thracian.

Albanian then could possibly be from this language, as it fits being neither Thracian nor Illyrian, and it could explain why we have some Albanoid names pop up among Illyrians, Thracians, and Dacians, especially around the central Dardanian region.

 

[Johane Derite]

Procopius writes that Justinian the Great was born among the Dardanians, near "Bederiana".


Duridanov linked this name with the Daco-Mysian name "Baedarus, Bedarus".


Greek linguist "Smerdaleos" argues that the change from Baedar- to Beder- fits a proto-Albanian sound change.

This is another point of evidence that places a proto-Albanian people in the late antiquity pre-slavic period near the vicinity of Shtip.

 

[Hawk]

Was wondering about Messapi region burial and just read about this:

https://news.italy-24.com/local/558...ds-in-the-Torre-Guaceto-reserve-–-Puglia.html

Cremation burials found in Puglia dated to 13-12 century B.C. Notice that this cannot be the burials of Italics there since they were known to strictly inhumate.

So, i wonder to which culture do there burials belong to? Messapi perhaps?

 

[Riverman]

Was wondering about Messapi region burial and just read about this:

https://news.italy-24.com/local/558...ds-in-the-Torre-Guaceto-reserve-–-Puglia.html

Cremation burials found in Puglia dated to 13-12 century B.C. Notice that this cannot be the burials of Italics there since they were known to strictly inhumate.

So, i wonder to which culture do there burials belong to? Messapi perhaps?

Don't forget that its possible to likely that with the "Illyrians proper" came some Urnfield Pannonians and Channelled Ware people as well. We know this from the find situation already, that they must have had contacts and trade at the very least. And it rather looks like that wouldn't be enough, so at least some settler groups and warbands are to be expected:

More in this post:
https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threa...kan-case/page9?p=634651&viewfull=1#post634651

Especially the Srem region is another case of Illyrians being first pushed back by Channelled Ware (look at the concentration of finds!) and then in the IA with the developed Hallstatt culture, Illyrians moved in as elite and settlers, largely replacing the earlier people, but probably ending up in a limited contribution of the locals. Needs to be tested. The samples from the Srem group look fairly Illyrian shifted overall, with limited other influence rather, but can be debated. Even more so since we have no actual samples from Belegis II-G?va, which was the main Channelled Ware group of the Central Balkans.

Interestingly Puglia seems to have been more Matt Painted Pottery and inhumation dominated, otherwise. Context of the burials matters, if they are from Middle Danubian Urnfield, Protovillanovans or Channelled Ware.

But we know how far cremating groups and influences reached:

https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threa...IA-Balkan-case?p=628327&viewfull=1#post628327

 

[Hawk]

That's the area of Brindisi, Messapi territory. Proto-Villanovan Culture didn't extend there.

 

[Riverman]

That's the area of Brindisi, Messapi territory. Proto-Villanovan Culture didn't extend there.

True, but Middle Danubians or Belegis II-G?va weren't in all those regions as well. Some splinter groups however, who knows? Probably locals taking up customs, we don't know without context.

It could have been small, specialised communities from as far as the Aegean:

Important ports were probably located at Roca (which yielded over half of the Aegean-type pottery recovered west of Greece), Scoglio del Tonno (where the Greek colony of Taras was subsequently founded in the Iron Age), and, to the north, at important internal nodes like Moscosi di Cingoli and Cisterna di Tolentino, where considerable traces of metallurgy have been recovered together with Mycenaean-style pottery. Other specialized production is also well attested, particularly in the south, where it is potentially connected to the development of so-called ?specialized sites? (Cazzella 2009), where activities like purple dye production (e.g., at Coppa Nevigata, where this activity started well before contacts with the Aegean) and metallurgy (e.g., at La Starza) were conducted (see Albore Livadie 1996; Cazzella 2009; Mar?n-Aguilera et al. 2018). Limited evidence for specialized activities beyond settlements has also been identified, such as salt production at Vasche Napoletane (Iacono 2019, p. 72).
An intense local network of interaction, possibly involving the movement of people and craftsmen and supported by the sharing of decorative features on pottery, seems to have been in place. Such a network was, at least in Apulia, facilitated by the presence of pack animals such as donkeys, whose earliest remains in Italy, at Coppa Nevigata, date to the RBA (see Iacono 2019, p. 50).

Very important is that in an area with limited local resources bronze hoards being found, which is a characteristic especially of the Channelled Ware people:

A considerable concentration of hoards dated toward the end of the FBA has been recovered on the southern tip of Apulia, an area that is completely devoid of metal resources. Such hoards often show connections with other areas rich in metal, such as northern Italy and the Balkans (see Bietti Sestieri 2008; Gori 2006).

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10814-021-09165-1

 

[torzio]

Was wondering about Messapi region burial and just read about this:

https://news.italy-24.com/local/558...ds-in-the-Torre-Guaceto-reserve-–-Puglia.html

Cremation burials found in Puglia dated to 13-12 century B.C. Notice that this cannot be the burials of Italics there since they were known to strictly inhumate.

So, i wonder to which culture do there burials belong to? Messapi perhaps?

The age of these burials does not fit the arrival of the messapi circa 1000BC ................it must have been original italic tribes in the area

 

[Hawk]

The age of these burials does not fit the arrival of the messapi circa 1000BC ................it must have been original italic tribes in the area

That's valid point, but 1000 B.C is not something which everyone agrees, they just label it as Late Bronze Age/Early Iron Age migration, when exactly, no one can reassure. But, it might be the Italic tribes as well, some more context on the burial would be more beneficial.

 

[Dushman]

Procopius writes that Justinian the Great was born among the Dardanians, near "Bederiana".


Duridanov linked this name with the Daco-Mysian name "Baedarus, Bedarus".


Greek linguist "Smerdaleos" argues that the change from Baedar- to Beder- fits a proto-Albanian sound change.

This is another point of evidence that places a proto-Albanian people in the late antiquity pre-slavic period near the vicinity of Shtip.

Parroting should be done properly and fully without leaving out the fact that Baedarus was not a local Daco-Mysian name but of Illyrian origin as it’s attested among the Illyrian settlers in Dacia as mentioned as peregrines in Roman Dacia.

 

[Johane Derite]

Parroting should be done properly and fully without leaving out the fact that Baedarus was not a local Daco-Mysian name but of Illyrian origin as it’s attested among the Illyrian settlers in Dacia as mentioned as peregrines in Roman Dacia.

Are you mentally ill or that stupid? This is a daco-mysian name, it's not even attested in Illyria.

Here is another Dacian "Baedari",
Nothing to do with "Illyrian" peregrines.

Dacia
et vindicata.
Ulcudius Baedari
et Sutta Epicadi
D(is) I(nferis) M(anibus). Ulcudius
Baedari vixit an(nis) L.

https://edh.ub.uni-heidelberg.de/edh/inschrift/HD044377

 

[Dushman]

What we do know is that we are dealing with a girl, murdered (
interfecta
)

by
latrones
and revenged (
vindicata
). We can assume that the avengers were her parents, Ulcudius Bedari and Sutta Epicadi, who also erect the monument. Noticeably, in this case we are dealing with a peregrine family, with an Illyrian background, as Sutta
25
and Bedarus are common names for the Illyrians. While Ulcudius seems to be an Illyrian name as well,
26
the woman’s patronymic is Greek,
27
but it is hard to tell if it indicates real Greek roots or is just the object of an onomastic accidental occurrence.

https://www.academia.edu/38213446/T...urces_1_Personal_tragedies_in_Roman_epigraphy

 

[Johane Derite]

Are you mentally ill or that stupid? This is a daco-mysian name, it's not even attested in Illyria.
Here is another Dacian "Baedari",
Nothing to do with "Illyrian" peregrines.
Dacia
et vindicata.
Ulcudius Baedari
et Sutta Epicadi
D(is) I(nferis) M(anibus). Ulcudius
Baedari vixit an(nis) L.
https://edh.ub.uni-heidelberg.de/edh/inschrift/HD044377

Ok, it seems you are actually mentally ill. You seem to be stalking and pathologically obsessed with me. Look at this insane crap you wrote with your sock puppet "Zanatis" on anthrogenica.
It seems you also have some weird af delusions, such as your obsession with this "ottoman" insult. Do you think that you are somehow affecting me or something with this? This has like no relevance to me or anything. You must be fuming lol.So cringe.
You're a fan of mine that is cross with me because I wont pay you any attention, is that it?
You are such a pathetic loser, lol.

 

[Johane Derite]

What we do know is that we are dealing with a girl, murdered (
interfecta
)

by
latrones
and revenged (
vindicata
). We can assume that the avengers were her parents, Ulcudius Bedari and Sutta Epicadi, who also erect the monument. Noticeably, in this case we are dealing with a peregrine family, with an Illyrian background, as Sutta
25
and Bedarus are common names for the Illyrians. While Ulcudius seems to be an Illyrian name as well,
26
the woman’s patronymic is Greek,
27
but it is hard to tell if it indicates real Greek roots or is just the object of an onomastic accidental occurrence.

https://www.academia.edu/38213446/T...urces_1_Personal_tragedies_in_Roman_epigraphy

Hahaha, ah yes, the Illyrian (ahem, i mean Dalmato-Pannonian) name Baedarus that doesn't appear in Dalmatia or Pannonia.

 

[blevins13]

In some areas into which Channelled Ware pushed, we have an interesting phenomenon: The (at that time) local Brnjica people moved up to the hills, built fortified hilltop settlements, whereas the incoming Channelled Ware people settled in the lowlands. We can also, very clearly, see that there were contacts between these two people, which lived in the EIA side by side. Like Channelled Ware pottery and goods being found in those hilltop forts.
The situation might have been similar to that of Vlachs/Albanians and Slavs. At first the Slavs rushed in, took the best parts of the country, but the locals had to relocate and adapt to a more hidden, better defensible position. However, in those very hilly areas, contrary to say the open lands along the Danube, the locals could persist and in theory its very hard to say who came out on top.

The logical conclusion, if we see in the pre-Illyrian people of the region e.g. Brygi, Paeonians and Thracians side by side, is that that non-Thracians likely being those LBA locals which relocated to the hills, and which, in some areas, came out on top.

In any case we definitely deal with a lot of substrate and adstrate phenomenons in and around Albania, that much is very clear.

Like Illyrians in some parts of the Adriatic coast made tabula rase, same for Thracians in some areas along the Danube. But again in other areas, it was more complicated with mixtures on top of mixtures and pushing forth and back. The Dardanians for example are very clearly not the typical Illyrians at all, but a complex fusion of different people in which the Illyrian elite element just turned out dominant.

Compare these two maps:

It would make sense that the Brygi/Phrygians, if being closer to Greco-Armenian, would have R-Z2103. Therefore we had in and around the Dardanians three groups of significance:
- Thracians: E-V13
- Illyrians: J-L283
- Brygi: R-Z2103

Hypothetical, but can be tested.

So basically only the Brygi have R-Z2103, the Illyrian or the Thracian have no indo-europian male line.


Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum

 

[mount123]

So basically only the Brygi have R-Z2103, the Illyrian or the Thracian have no indo-europian male line.

*Indo-European
Non sense. With what migration do you think J2b-L283 came to the Balkans? It is the primary marker of Illyrians who were an IE population.

 

[broder]

All Paleo Balkan languages were initially mediated by Z2103 linages, including Illyrian.

 

[Hawk]

On initial point i do agree, R1b-Z2103 might even be the mediator of all Indo-European languages, since it's formation and TMRCA goes in line with linguistic thinking of Proto Indo-European which hypothetically formed during 3500 B.C to 2500 B.C, to add the archaeogenetic evidence to this so far.

If that's true then yes, because otherwise i see people classifying Illyrian as Bell-Beaker derived and Thracian as CWC derived either from Nitra/Kostany or Noua-Sabatinovska-Coslogeni.

Otherwise within Balkanic IE so far we probably have: Greco-Armenian, Phrygian, Messapian and Albanoid?. The last one is still disputed especially by linguists like John Basset Trumper who essentially believes Albanian came from somewhere from Southern Central Europe somewhere during Iron Age.

Or, we might perhaps agree that R1b-Z2103 was initially who brought Thraco-Illyrian before they split in their adequate separate cultures/separate influences in Early Bronze Age and Albanoid is like a relic split from both of them in the middle, probably a Central Balkan language. Who knows.

 

[Archetype0ne]

Concur with the above. Of all Y-s, Z2103 has the strongest connection to Yamnaya/ and both east and west IE all the way to central Asia.
If one has kept up with the recent symposia, they would understand how important the branch is, if who is who in anthrogenetics are about to rewrite the whole IE story, placing it east of Anatolia due to likely Z2103, Yamnaya-Armenian-Greek-Albanian connection comes to mind.