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The genetic history of the Southern Arc-Lazaridis et al

Your average Gheg Albanian definitely does not cluster like a Mycenean or a Southern Albania. Especially not if you include Montenegro Albanians and Kosovo Albanians yet you were claiming all samples in Albania will cluster like Greeks or Myceneans and anyone who is more north is because of Slavic shift, that was basically your argument but does not seem to be the case.
 
Hawk said:
The Hurro-Urartians being in majority R1b-Z2103 is a huge surprise, they lived in proximity with Proto-Armenians though.
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The Armenians claim the ownership of the Urartians and from the little I've read (not a huge expert) it does seem there are historical connections between the two. R-L584 is a big chunk of modern Armenian R1b, however I remain agnostic and hopefully our more knowledgeable posters can point us towards the literature.
 
zFnb334.png


Admixture chart from the supplement. It seems I was wrong to discount the use of Levant_PPN in modeling according to the new paper.
 
eupator said:
The Armenians claim the ownership of the Urartians and from the little I've read (not a huge expert) it does seem there are historical connections between the two. R-L584 is a big chunk of modern Armenian R1b, however I remain agnostic and hopefully our more knowledgeable posters can point us towards the literature.
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From what i can see Urartian is classified as agglutinative language not related to any other language. What happened to Hittite samples? Too bad ancient Hittites used cremation a lot.
 
"Anatolian (e.g., Hittite and Luwian) and Indo-European (e.g., Greek, Armenian, Latin, and Sanskrit) languages as twin daughters of a Proto-Indo-Anatolian language."

The authors are saying that Latins came from Anatolia?
 
Jovialis said:
"Anatolian (e.g., Hittite and Luwian) and Indo-European (e.g., Greek, Armenian, Latin, and Sanskrit) languages as twin daughters of a Proto-Indo-Anatolian language."

The authors are saying that Latins came from Anatolia?
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What they are saying is that Proto-Indo-Anatolian is "Pre-PIE" and Anatolian is one of its branches, whereas "Steppe" PIE is the other one.
 
Jovialis said:
"Anatolian (e.g., Hittite and Luwian) and Indo-European (e.g., Greek, Armenian, Latin, and Sanskrit) languages as twin daughters of a Proto-Indo-Anatolian language."

The authors are saying that Latins came from Anatolia?
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No, of course not. Latin stem from Corded Ware ancestors, just as 99% of Indo-European speakers, except Greek, Armenian and Albanian. Lazaridis himself talks about it on Twitter.


"Proto-Indo-European is used by some as inclusive of Anatolian. In our terminology Proto-Indo-Anatolian has two daughter clades (Anatolian and Proto-Indo-European)."

"And 99% of Indo-European speakers stem from Corded Ware ancestors. It is only three small groups: Greeks, Armenians, Albanians who go up to the Yamnaya not via Corded Ware intermediaries. Many others were wiped out linguistically, e.g. Tocharians and most Paleo-Balkan speakers"


 
Yeah, he was just citing examples of Indo-European languages what consist not hinting that Latin is descended from Anatolia directly. But, all in all, the hype of the paper failed miserably. The paper is already facing backlash from linguists, it included linguistic theory without any linguist involved.

The citation alone 99% Corded-Ware already gives a hint of the ratio of possibilities. And what we already knew from linguistic paleontology. the Proto IE were likely highly patriarcal and male cousins dominated but as soon as we enter Late Early Bronze Age we already start to see diversity in Indo-European groups, different male lines present, but also sometimes some particular already IE speaking group starting to dominate certain linguistic groups.
 
Moja said:
I know but it seems they have considered Iran_N as just CHG in this study.
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I cannot give you an absolutely comprehensive answer. They tell me that in such reconstruction CHG is considered a more reliable sample (apart from the fact that it is older than the other)
 
Moja said:
I know but it seems they have considered Iran_N as just CHG in this study.
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CHG ancestry is virtually indistinguishable from Iran_N. The profiles are extremely similar. This is what the paper says:

"These results tentatively suggest that Caucasus hunter-gatherer and Ganj Dare Neolithic are interchangeable for the purposes of quantifying the amount of inland admixture... ."
 
Ralphie Boy said:
Some interesting findings, looking through the Y DNA of the study. An Albanian is in the Y DNA branch of an ancient Greek from near Delphi of the Archaic period.

https://www.yfull.com/tree/T-S27463/

Other findings are that the two J-L70 branches from southwest Anatolia in the Middle Ages are below J-Z423, the branch of the late antiquity and medieval Roman samples that are downstream. This was in Mugla, a place that was settled or controlled by Carians and ancient Greeks. Turks, Greeks and Albanians are in this branch as well. Another interesting finding is J-L25 in Halicarnassus in ca 260 bc. That is a parent branch of L70.

As for two Archaic age Macedonia samples from Orhid, they have a haplogroup that was in the Cyclades over 4,000 years ago, and in Croatia before that (J-Y13128).
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Nice summary. Thanks.
 
Pax Augusta said:
"And 99% of Indo-European speakers stem from Corded Ware ancestors. It is only three small groups: Greeks, Armenians, Albanians who go up to the Yamnaya not via Corded Ware intermediaries. Many others were wiped out linguistically, e.g. Tocharians and most Paleo-Balkan speakers"
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So 99% of Indo-European speakers are from Northern Europe?!! I don't think that even Nordicists believe this thing! Just one percent of Indo-Europeans are not from this Aryan super-race in Europe?!
 
Moja said:
So 99% of Indo-European speakers are from Northern Europe?!! I don't think that even Nordicists believe this thing! Just one percent of Indo-Europeans are not from this Aryan super-race in Europe?!
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The Uber Polish CordedWare don't you know. Remember Arnold the Barbarian riding on his horse.
 
Yeah, I was perplexed by that statement, glad Lazaridis cleared it up on Twitter.
 
eupator said:
I was going to make a post about this but you beat me to it, the Urartians seem to be exclusively R-L584>R-FGC14590>R-19434>R-12332 (mah ancestors, *sniff* :sadcry:).

Upstream of them @ R-FC14590 (and also one at R-Y19434) there are several IA Hajji-Firruz/IA Hasanlu samples (Medes?).
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With all the hype I was expecting huge numbers of warrior R1a or L51 l Corded Ware like samples to show up. Instead Z2103- R1b--L584 . I wonder if the Grugni et al 2012 --23% sampled Lurs are related to this branch as well as the ancient Medes?
 
GV6PVNu.png


Cleaned/Trimmed up the dataset so the graphic is readable: removed medieval/Byzantine samples, and non Balkan samples.
 
Pax Augusta said:
No, of course not. Latin stem from Corded Ware ancestors, just as 99% of Indo-European speakers, except Greek, Armenian and Albanian. Lazaridis himself talks about it on Twitter.


"Proto-Indo-European is used by some as inclusive of Anatolian. In our terminology Proto-Indo-Anatolian has two daughter clades (Anatolian and Proto-Indo-European)."

"And 99% of Indo-European speakers stem from Corded Ware ancestors. It is only three small groups: Greeks, Armenians, Albanians who go up to the Yamnaya not via Corded Ware intermediaries. Many others were wiped out linguistically, e.g. Tocharians and most Paleo-Balkan speakers"
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So basically the two big clades in Corded Ware (aka--horseless Ware)R1b+L51 R1a/Fatyanovo cannot be connected to Hittites, Tocharians, Greeks, Armenians, and Albanians . Does that sum it up?
 
Scaled Global25 coordinates for the Southern Arc samples with Y-DNA, date and coverage (only new samples are included, not old ones).

https://pastebin.com/raw/vwbBtKeZ

Code: 
Distance to:    Ajeje_Brazorf_scaled
0.02629569    TUR_Aegean_Muğla_Stratonikeia_Byz:I20187___J-Z43041___AD_975___Coverage_73.79%
0.03531070    TUR_Marmara_Balıkesir_PostMdv:I14823___R-S1734___AD_1573___Coverage_71.47%
0.03543655    TUR_Aegean_Muğla_Samantaş_Byz:I20265___J-PF2254___AD_604___Coverage_72.37%
0.03674418    TUR_Marmara_Balıkesir_Byz:I14831___female___AD_800___Coverage_70.32%
0.03760959    TUR_Aegean_Muğla_Samantaş_Byz:I20259___J-Y17949___AD_604___Coverage_74.68%
0.03808342    TUR_Aegean_Muğla_Samantaş_Byz_brother.I20265:I20264___J-PF2254___AD_604___Coverage_72.31%
0.03815572    HRV_Trogir_Byz:I15462___female___AD_734___Coverage_75.20%
0.03875858    TUR_Marmara_İznik_Y.kapı_Byz:I14840___female___AD_472___Coverage_39.66%
0.03948177    GRC_Mycenaean_Palace_of_Nestor_BA:I19366___female___BC_1328___Coverage_50.11%
0.03970005    HRV_Trogir_Byz:I15744___female___AD_722___Coverage_69.45%
0.03993213    TUR_Aegean_Muğla_Samantaş_Byz:I20266___R-FT61494___AD_604___Coverage_70.09%
 
Imho this paper is a ridiculous attempt to save the 'steppe hypothesis', not really oppose it.

Yamnaya itself may not have been IE in the first place.

Now we see another R1b-rich non-IE group who a) didn't care to impose their ancestral language (why?) or b) they were not speaking the language in the first place.
 
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