Where does the Albanian language come from? [VIDEO]

[Johane Derite]

Anyway, that's all I have to say; continue to believe that I am a terrible person who is after you, or whatever else you believe. Upholding the forum users, please stop derailing the discussion now. It is apparent that you lack common decency and are incapable of carrying on a normal discussion without being passive aggressive.

Just 10 days ago you were making up fake reasons about why i was banned from anthrogenica, and spreading other falsehoods about me. And its not the first time you jump to attack me. So again, stop acting as if you've been cordial with me.

 

[Johane Derite]

One last thing, @Johane

You should stop misrepresenting the views of others too. Many people on anthrogenica (including Bruzmi) have supported that Albanian was spoken in Dardania, Montenegro and as far as south as central Albania. And guess what? The study did show that there is huge continuity between Illyrians of Cinamak and modern Albanians which you are constantly trying to ignore.

You on the other hand are constantly pushing for fringe theories about Albanians from the Carpathians, Anatolia, western Bulgaria and every other area besides Albania and Montenegro. You keep doing that even though now we have clear evidence that Albanians have continuity with the people who lived in Cinamak.

No Albanian will get Kapitan Andreevo or pre-Slavic Bulgaria as their closest match or even as a particularly close match. It's over for this theory but you keep acting as if the study was never published. You think that the study showed something about Albanians because it found E-V13 in Bulgaria? Someone should give you a wake up call. It showed that Albanians are descendants of the same people who lived in northern Albania and that they have nothing to do with Bulgaria.

The issue Johane is that your 20 last posts all propagate the same mantra that "Albanians didn't live in Albania" but this is clearly not the case as shown by this study. If this study didn't say that the profile of Albania has remained largely the same since the MBA but that Albanians arrived from Bulgaria after the Slavic invasions you would surely post that 20 times per day on your channel, but because it says that it hasn't changed, there isn't a single post about it on your channel. You're basically censoring information.

This is what shows a very biased agenda, not the fact that we're not discussing as serious something which we can now see that it never could have happened.

Sorry but im not convinced by this cinamak business, and im not going to fan these flames and get peoples hopes up. Im weary as it is of autosomals without ydna, im gonna wait a bit more.

Honestly its just exhausting with you lot. Do you even understand that the ev13 origin and proto-albanian origin are two separate discussions even if they may possibly interact.

I think z2705 is the best candidate dominant lineage of the proto albanians, and the tmrca pretty much proves it was a small group that experienced a founder effect.

Lets wait until we test the nish- shtip regions deeply and see what ydna /autosomals we get...

The arguments about ev13 being related to chanelled ware are separate, but may possibly also be related to spread of albanoid languages in some regions if they pushed others, recruited, etc. If you cannot understand that these are separate dicussions then stop wasting time.

This study clearly showed ev13 has some sort of thracian connection/role. Bruzmi has been hinting ev13 wouldnt be found in thrave and that it has nothing to do with thrace for ages in anthrogenica. Your camp gives no arguments or explanations, bruzmi tried with some absurd illyrian migrants earlier on when ev13 was more sparce, but now his argument wont fly.

 

[mount123]

Kudos to the Harvard team for dismantling Bruzmi's bs and demonstrating to even his cheerleaders that he is a lying spin doctor. He had your hopes up that no ev13 would be found in thrace with his cryptic remarks about "wait and see", and he had your hopes up about some mythical hyllested paper that would bring new evidence about Illryian - Albanian relations, and he failed abysmally on both fronts. I sense that even his most loyal cheerleaders took a major L ������

The guy literally claims the brnjica culture doesnt exist, denies the universally agreed upon incongruency of albanian with illyrian phonetics like /sk/ cluster, etc.

Anyway, lets keep waiting for more results and push the discussiom forward, and stop with the pathetic copes

If I recall correctly user Rafc was the only one who addressed Bruzmi's lies and in a very polite manner I have to say. As for the cheerleaders I am worried there is not much change there, albeit I think I'm seeing the start of some hints of mistrust towards Bruzmi.

 

[Excine]

Sorry but im not convinced by this cinamak business, and im not going to fan these flames and get peoples hopes up. Im weary as it is of autosomals without ydna, im gonna wait a bit more.

Honestly its just exhausting with you lot. Do you even understand that the ev13 origin and proto-albanian origin are two separate discussions even if they may possibly interact.

I think z2705 is the best candidate dominant lineage of the proto albanians, and the tmrca pretty much proves it was a small group that experienced a founder effect.

Lets wait until we test the nish- shtip regions deeply and see what ydna /autosomals we get...

The arguments about ev13 being related to chanelled ware are separate, but may possibly also be related to spread of albanoid languages in some regions if they pushed others, recruited, etc. If you cannot understand that these are separate dicussions then stop wasting time.

This study clearly showed ev13 has some sort of thracian connection/role. Bruzmi has been hinting ev13 wouldnt be found in thrave and that it has nothing to do with thrace for ages in anthrogenica. Your camp gives no arguments or explanations, bruzmi tried with some absurd illyrian migrants earlier on when ev13 was more sparce, but now his argument wont fly.

No, nobody said on anthrogenica that we won't find any E-V13 in Thrace in general, Bruzmi too. He was talking about the samples from western Thrace/eastern North Macedonia which well, that's what happened. There's 1 E-L618 among and maybe he's E-V13? Who knows but his point was that E-V13 wouldn't be abundant in that sampled area. He also said that Proto-Thracians would be a BA people who were R-Z2103 and guess what? This is what the study supports. It's a really weird cope to think that a study which explicitly proclaimed Thracians in the Bronze Age Balkans as coming from the steppe somehow said that E-V13 = Thracian.

Here you're ignoring the facts again because one of the R-M269 found with J-L283 in Cinamak is R-CTS1450 and you know about the Albanian-Messapic connection and you also know that the Cinamak EBA R-M269 is likely R-PF7562. In case you didn't notice this is 32-37% of all Albanian clades in one site. Imagine that! Here you're still coping about it as it means nothing.

There's nothing for you to buy about autosomal results. If Proto-Albanians lived in Bulgaria then modern Albanians wouldn't be close to the people from Cinamak. There's one genetic profile which existed from Montenegro to at least part of North Macedonia and it's probably something similar but maybe with more ANF/less WHG in Dardania. But again you're showing your bias because you're willing to repost anything that fits your theories even if it's ultra low quality but if it's a study from a Harvard lab with hundreds of scientists involved because you don't like it, you say "I don't buy it". This is what pure bias looks like.

 

[torzio]

One last thing, @Johane

You should stop misrepresenting the views of others too. Many people on anthrogenica (including Bruzmi) have supported that Albanian was spoken in Dardania, Montenegro and as far as south as central Albania. And guess what? The study did show that there is huge continuity between Illyrians of Cinamak and modern Albanians which you are constantly trying to ignore.

You on the other hand are constantly pushing for fringe theories about Albanians from the Carpathians, Anatolia, western Bulgaria and every other area besides Albania and Montenegro. You keep doing that even though now we have clear evidence that Albanians have continuity with the people who lived in Cinamak.

No Albanian will get Kapitan Andreevo or pre-Slavic Bulgaria as their closest match or even as a particularly close match. It's over for this theory but you keep acting as if the study was never published. You think that the study showed something about Albanians because it found E-V13 in Bulgaria? Someone should give you a wake up call. It showed that Albanians are descendants of the same people who lived in northern Albania and that they have nothing to do with Bulgaria.

The issue Johane is that your 20 last posts all propagate the same mantra that "Albanians didn't live in Albania" but this is clearly not the case as shown by this study. If this study didn't say that the profile of Albania has remained largely the same since the MBA but that Albanians arrived from Bulgaria after the Slavic invasions you would surely post that 20 times per day on your channel, but because it says that it hasn't changed, there isn't a single post about it on your channel. You're basically censoring information.

This is what shows a very biased agenda, not the fact that we're not discussing as serious something which we can now see that it never could have happened.

do you not think it is weird/strange/odd that since everyone ( all tribes ) on both sides of the adriatic sea mixed with each other , yet the albanians did not ( in bronze and iron ages ) .............clearly the proto-albanians came from a land locked tribe(s)

 

[torzio]

Stop being sarcastic; this is not how you should communicate with others. One thing I do not understand is why you block Twitter users who question or contest your tweets. Appears to exist a complicated barrier preventing you from having a respectful conversation with them? Anyway, I never dismissed Dardania's significance as a region lol. I have always acknowledged that Dardania is the optimal area to explore for the Albanian ethnogenesis, but I will not sell out to some vague paradigm of Albanians being a wholly eastern Balkanic group.

you need to discuss where the albanians began geographically and not where they ended up geographically ..............these "ended" up conversations are 100% useless

 

[Johane Derite]

No, nobody said on anthrogenica that we won't find any E-V13 in Thrace in general, Bruzmi too. He was talking about the samples from western Thrace/eastern North Macedonia which well, that's what happened. There's 1 E-L618 among and maybe he's E-V13? Who knows but his point was that E-V13 wouldn't be abundant in that sampled area. He also said that Proto-Thracians would be a BA people who were R-Z2103 and guess what? This is what the study supports. It's a really weird cope to think that a study which explicitly proclaimed Thracians in the Bronze Age Balkans as coming from the steppe somehow said that E-V13 = Thracian.

Here you're ignoring the facts again because one of the R-M269 found with J-L283 in Cinamak is R-CTS1450 and you know about the Albanian-Messapic connection and you also know that the Cinamak EBA R-M269 is likely R-PF7562. In case you didn't notice this is 32-37% of all Albanian clades in one site. Imagine that! Here you're still coping about it as it means nothing.

There's nothing for you to buy about autosomal results. If Proto-Albanians lived in Bulgaria then modern Albanians wouldn't be close to the people from Cinamak. There's one genetic profile which existed from Montenegro to at least part of North Macedonia and it's probably something similar but maybe with more ANF/less WHG in Dardania. But again you're showing your bias because you're willing to repost anything that fits your theories even if it's ultra low quality but if it's a study from a Harvard lab with hundreds of scientists involved because you don't like it, you say "I don't buy it". This is what pure bias looks like.

Bruzmi was insinuating for ages against riverman that ev13 wouldnt be found in thrace, he would always say wait and see, wait a couple of days until we find out, etc. Thats a fact, anybody that followed those discussions saw the game that bruzmi played.

And with regard to the autosomal results, my position isnt biased, its evidence based.

This is literally what you said a couple of posts ago:

"What you don't understand is that there is a significant void in the Central Balkans, and it is the next major position that must be explored."

So this significant void is all of a sudden irrelevant when we want to compare albanians autosomally?

I want tests of people from the nish-shtip region from the pre-slavic era, highlands and lowlands, and then we'll talk about cinamak.

Ive said it a billion times but my position is based on what linguists are saying. If albanians were in central albania they would have pre roman sound laws on their toponyms like shkodra, durres, etc, instead they all show post roman development. This is the crux of why i doubt cinamak as being relevant to the proto-albanian language being from hinterland or not.

Evidence and arguments from countless linguists has brought me to this position, not an agenda like your team.

If proto-abanians do end up being actually from Albania since pre roman times, then this is fkn humiliating how incapable of preserving the pre-roman past we have been. It proto-albanians moved into albanoi region then it is just more straightforward, they did preserve their placenames but only from the time they learnt them (in the post roman era). A migrant community (as countless of albanians in the world are today)

 

[PaleoRevenge]

@Johane Derite

It is glaringly evident that you obliviously observed Paleo's scribbly lines on the PCA and ingested them as though they were the whole truth. Soon later, however, Archtype provided unequivocal evidence that his theory was flawed. Again, it is obvious that the mainland Thracian E-V13 people are not linked to the Albanian E-V13 people; thus, you are the one who is still coping. It should come as no surprise that Albanian branches won't be directly connected to mainland Thrace's E-V13s in a linear continuous fashion. Your ability to deal with the situation is so poor that you are still applauding PaleoRevenge's few toponym 'revelations', even though you haven't even looked into them to see whether or not they are even somewhat feasible. And acknowledge him as some kind of godlike figure on the forum. Again, unless we can locate the main Albanian E-V13 clades and subsequently connect them to the ancient Balkans and link them to a geographical location, there is still many lingering questions for discussion. But, for you, the answer is set in stone some-how, even though only a part of the E-V13 story was 'solved'.

even though, even though, even though, yep we are the ones that are coping.
Even though the Cinamak model needs 1/3 Greko-Syrian mixture to work, in my heart I know the Cinamak Illyrians were mixing with these migrants speaking a broken Latin, survived together in the mountains under a rainbow and gave birth to Albanian.

 

[PaleoRevenge]

No, nobody said on anthrogenica that we won't find any E-V13 in Thrace in general, Bruzmi too. He was talking about the samples from western Thrace/eastern North Macedonia which well, that's what happened. There's 1 E-L618 among and maybe he's E-V13? Who knows but his point was that E-V13 wouldn't be abundant in that sampled area. He also said that Proto-Thracians would be a BA people who were R-Z2103 and guess what? This is what the study supports. It's a really weird cope to think that a study which explicitly proclaimed Thracians in the Bronze Age Balkans as coming from the steppe somehow said that E-V13 = Thracian.

Here you're ignoring the facts again because one of the R-M269 found with J-L283 in Cinamak is R-CTS1450 and you know about the Albanian-Messapic connection and you also know that the Cinamak EBA R-M269 is likely R-PF7562. In case you didn't notice this is 32-37% of all Albanian clades in one site. Imagine that! Here you're still coping about it as it means nothing.

There's nothing for you to buy about autosomal results. If Proto-Albanians lived in Bulgaria then modern Albanians wouldn't be close to the people from Cinamak. There's one genetic profile which existed from Montenegro to at least part of North Macedonia and it's probably something similar but maybe with more ANF/less WHG in Dardania. But again you're showing your bias because you're willing to repost anything that fits your theories even if it's ultra low quality but if it's a study from a Harvard lab with hundreds of scientists involved because you don't like it, you say "I don't buy it". This is what pure bias looks like.

There are no samples from western Thrace. We have some from westernmost Moesia and it's loaded with E-V13. So far all E-V13 has been found in the context of the Daco-Thracian world, from eastern Pannonia down to eastern Macedonia. Cope with it.

 

[Hawk]

There are no samples from western Thrace. We have some from westernmost Moesia and it's loaded with E-V13. So far all E-V13 has been found in the context of the Daco-Thracian world, from eastern Pannonia down to eastern Macedonia. Cope with it.

I understand Bruzmi the way he acts. He is a J2b2-L283 Albanian, and it's in his benefit to belittle E-V13 Albanians as much as he can, as has their propaganda been going on and on (some specific group, not all of them to be explicit). They remind me of Serbs of 10-15 years ago. Almost the same behaviour patterns, slightly more sneaky.

But i seriously fail to understand Excine as E-V13 Albanian. Is he so naive or what?!

 

[broder]

I don’t know who Bruzmi is or what his haplo is, but I don’t think his intention is to belittle V13 from what I have gathered reading him. He is just a bit overprotective, and understandable since V13 makes good chunk of our Y chromosome and is the most diverse linage among us. For that reason too and the evidence we had in the past I had similar opinion, that V13 was native southern Balkan linage.

Let’s be logical now guys.

 

[Excine]

even though, even though, even though, yep we are the ones that are coping.
Even though the Cinamak model needs 1/3 Greko-Syrian mixture to work, in my heart I know the Cinamak Illyrians were mixing with these migrants speaking a broken Latin, survived together in the mountains under a rainbow and gave birth to Albanian.

No, the Cinamak model doesn't require it as Archetype showed you with formal methods instead of scribbling lines on PCAs.

Why do you think that the authors write that overall genetic structure of Albania has remained the same?

It's because in post-medieval Albania there are samples which require no Slavic or East Med input to resemble Cinamak. You can do better than that. You didn't even check the entire dataset to understand the argument of Lazaridis.

You are placing yourself in a position where you are arguing for no reason against the available data. There are many Albanians with 55%+ ANF and < 3% WHG who obviously don't have high Slavic/East Med.

As for sampling, there are E-V13 samples from Croatia to Serbia and almost all of them of them require Illyrian input, some even exclusively Illyrian input. Don't think that E-V13 in Nish is closer to Bulgaria than to Croatia.

Distance to: Roman_NaissusR6764-K13-sim
0.02213177 MKD_Anc
0.02537635 ITA_Daunian
0.02641717 ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity
0.02676963 ALB_Mdv
0.02707730 HRV_PopCA
0.02861357 ALBÇinamak_Anc
0.02971838 HRV_BA
0.02987156 ITA_Rome_MA
0.02987771 MKD_BA
0.03030494 ITA_PoggioPelliccia_EMA
0.03039972 SRB_Mokrin_EBA_Maros_oAegean
0.03054300 ALB_PostMdv
0.03096004 DEU_MA_Alemannic_o2
0.03207600 HUN_IA_Syrmian_SremGroup
0.03249035 ITA_Chiusi_EMA
0.03264627 MNE_LBA
0.03441901 ITA_Tarquinia_EMA
0.03443172 HUN_EIA
0.03488831 BGR_TellKran_EBA
0.03500374 BGR_EBA
0.03528632 GRC_Logkas_MBA
0.03580020 HRV_EBA
0.03605799 ITA_Etruscan
0.03633844 HRV_Trogir_Byz
0.03635779 BGR_IA

 

[PaleoRevenge]

I understand Bruzmi the way he acts. He is a J2b2-L283 Albanian, and it's in his benefit to belittle E-V13 Albanians as much as he can, as has their propaganda been going on and on (some specific group, not all of them to be explicit). They remind me of Serbs of 10-15 years ago. Almost the same behaviour patterns, slightly more sneaky.

But i seriously fail to understand Excine as E-V13 Albanian. Is he so naive or what?!

I don't think he is driven by a haplogroup rivalry, that would be silly. But he is intentionally malicious. Reading Johanes comment on how he was promising his crowd no Thracian E-V13, he is the equivalent of QAnon for the Illyrian autochthonous crowd. Trust the plan.
I don't know anything about the guy, I've seen how he responds to Riverman, never acknowledging his arguments, playing dumb over and over. He is a bad character. You would be wasting your time talking to him.

 

[Hawk]

I have run mine distances and clearly Alb_POSTMDV, Srb_IA and HRV_BA, HRV_IA are closer. I don't expect Kapitan Andreevo IA to be ancestors of E-V13 Albanians, really doesn't make sense archaeological wise, it would be quite strange for E-V13 to have started it spread from there, it must have been somewhere in Northern Balkans - Southern Pannonia. We already have some Early Bronze Age indications of Hatvan Culture nearby Nagyrev and just north of Vatya to have had E-V13. I bet that Vatin (it's too bad these people used cremation extensively) would be the core and most wide-spread (I don't insist since i might get surprised on this one, but it makes sense since it connects the whole Balkan-Carpathian koine).

Distance to:	Hawk_scaled
0.02568727	ALB_PostMdv:I14685
0.02996871	SVK_IA_Vekerzug:I12105
0.03011768	SRB_IA:I16814
0.03148078	HUN_MA_Szolad:SZ36
0.03208866	HUN_MA_Szolad:SZ43
0.03371399	HRV_Trogir_Byz:I15743
0.03380432	ALB_PostMdv:I15706
0.03397282	HUN_IA_Syrmian_SremGroup:I18259
0.03438320	IND_Roopkund_B:I6936
0.03471613	HRV_BA:I18748
0.03472119	MKD_Anc:I10388
0.03543410	MKD_BA:I7231
0.03554848	ALB_PostMdv:I15707
0.03557775	HUN_Avar_Late_Visonta:I16751
0.03561805	HUN_La_Tene:I18493
0.03568900	HRV_Cetina_BA:I11843
0.03569511	GRC_Logkas_MBA:Log02
0.03592481	MNE_LBA:I13775
0.03625932	ALB_PostMdv:I14686
0.03643800	HRV_Cetina_BA:I18746
0.03746636	HUN_Sarmatian_Late_Transtisza:A181027
0.03749184	DEU_MA_Alemannic_o1:NIEcap3b
0.03765095	MNE_LBA:I13168
0.03811515	HRV_Pop_CAOP39
0.03823018	HRV_EIA:I23904
0.03832633	ITA_Rome_MA:RMPR55
0.03836749	ALB_Mdv:I13834
0.03845499	ALB_Mdv:I13839
0.03854776	ALB_Cinamak_Anc:I14690
0.03856043	ALB_Cinamak_Anc:I14692
0.03868710	HUN_MA_Szolad:SZ37
0.03872304	HUN_Sarmatian_Late_Transtisza:A181024
0.03884307	MNE_LBA:I14501
0.03891187	MNE_LBA:I13167
0.03928430	MNE_LBA:I13777
0.03939485	ITA_Daunian:ORD009
0.03939553	IND_Roopkund_B:I3404
0.03943402	Scythian_MDA:scy192
0.03960220	MKD_Anc:I10384
0.03964654	ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity:RMPR33
0.03980929	HRV_EIA:I26742
0.03981943	ALB_Cinamak_Anc:I16251
0.04000153	GRC_Logkas_MBA:Log04
0.04000693	SVK_IA_Vekerzug:I12098
0.04003507	SRB_Mokrin_EBA_Maros:I23205
0.04018759	ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity:RMPR36
0.04023831	SRB_Mokrin_EBA_Maros_oAegean:MOK17A
0.04031992	Scythian_MDA:scy197
0.04048246	ITA_Tarquinia_EMA:TAQ022
0.04051295	HRV_Trogir_Byz:I15463

Target: Hawk_scaled Distance: 2.8588% / 0.02858831
60.2	TUR_Marmara_Barcin_N
39.6	Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
0.2	WHG

I was also wondering if i have elevated Yamnaya due to Slavic admixture, but i have done some comparisons and i lack the Forest Steppe that Slavs had in addition. But for sure, some must be there, just don't know how much.

 

[Excine]

I don't expect Kapitan Andreevo IA to be ancestors of E-V13 Albanians, really doesn't make sense archaeological wise.

Distance to:	Hawk_scaled
0.02568727	ALB_PostMdv:I14685
0.02996871	SVK_IA_Vekerzug:I12105
0.03011768	SRB_IA:I16814
0.03148078	HUN_MA_Szolad:SZ36
0.03208866	HUN_MA_Szolad:SZ43
0.03371399	HRV_Trogir_Byz:I15743
0.03380432	ALB_PostMdv:I15706
0.03397282	HUN_IA_Syrmian_SremGroup:I18259
0.03438320	IND_Roopkund_B:I6936
0.03471613	HRV_BA:I18748
0.03472119	MKD_Anc:I10388
0.03543410	MKD_BA:I7231
0.03554848	ALB_PostMdv:I15707
0.03557775	HUN_Avar_Late_Visonta:I16751
0.03561805	HUN_La_Tene:I18493
0.03568900	HRV_Cetina_BA:I11843
0.03569511	GRC_Logkas_MBA:Log02
0.03592481	MNE_LBA:I13775
0.03625932	ALB_PostMdv:I14686
0.03643800	HRV_Cetina_BA:I18746
0.03746636	HUN_Sarmatian_Late_Transtisza:A181027
0.03749184	DEU_MA_Alemannic_o1:NIEcap3b
0.03765095	MNE_LBA:I13168
0.03811515	HRV_Pop_CAOP39
0.03823018	HRV_EIA:I23904
0.03832633	ITA_Rome_MA:RMPR55
0.03836749	ALB_Mdv:I13834
0.03845499	ALB_Mdv:I13839
0.03854776	ALB_Cinamak_Anc:I14690
0.03856043	ALB_Cinamak_Anc:I14692
0.03868710	HUN_MA_Szolad:SZ37
0.03872304	HUN_Sarmatian_Late_Transtisza:A181024
0.03884307	MNE_LBA:I14501
0.03891187	MNE_LBA:I13167
0.03928430	MNE_LBA:I13777
0.03939485	ITA_Daunian:ORD009
0.03939553	IND_Roopkund_B:I3404
0.03943402	Scythian_MDA:scy192
0.03960220	MKD_Anc:I10384
0.03964654	ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity:RMPR33
0.03980929	HRV_EIA:I26742
0.03981943	ALB_Cinamak_Anc:I16251
0.04000153	GRC_Logkas_MBA:Log04
0.04000693	SVK_IA_Vekerzug:I12098
0.04003507	SRB_Mokrin_EBA_Maros:I23205
0.04018759	ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity:RMPR36
0.04023831	SRB_Mokrin_EBA_Maros_oAegean:MOK17A
0.04031992	Scythian_MDA:scy197
0.04048246	ITA_Tarquinia_EMA:TAQ022
0.04051295	HRV_Trogir_Byz:I15463

Target: Hawk_scaled Distance: 2.8588% / 0.02858831
60.2	TUR_Marmara_Barcin_N
39.6	Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
0.2	WHG

I was also wondering if i have elevated Yamnaya due to Slavic admixture, but i have done some comparisons and i lack the Forest Steppe that Slavs had in addition. But for sure, some must be there, just don't know how much.

Hawk, would you take a look at that? I remain in this position, and you know, it's not impossible that our perspectives are more aligned than we now believe they are. despite the fact that there are so many emotions fueling up .


As for your elevated Yamnaya it's not too far off from mine

Target: Excine_scaled
Distance: 2.9421% / 0.02942079
62.2 TUR_Barcin_N
34.4 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
2.2 WHG
0.8 Han
0.4 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N

 

[Hawk]

I don't think he is driven by a haplogroup rivalry, that would be silly. But he is intentionally malicious. Reading Johanes comment on how he was promising his crowd no Thracian E-V13, he is the equivalent of QAnon for the Illyrian autochthonous crowd. Trust the plan.
I don't know anything about the guy, I've seen how he responds to Riverman, never acknowledging his arguments, playing dumb over and over. He is a bad character. You would be wasting your time talking to him.

Ok, perhaps i might overlooked, i hope i might be wrong but i suspect i am not.

 

[PaleoRevenge]

No, the Cinamak model doesn't require it as Archetype showed you with formal methods instead of scribbling lines on PCAs.

What is Greek Marathon on his fstats? That's his model.

Why do you think that the authors write that overall genetic structure of Albania has remained the same?

These authors always do that, that did the same with the Greek Mycanean, do they ever question anything? I'm certain they never even considered Albanian to be other than Illyrian.

It's because in post-medieval Albania there are samples which require no Slavic or East Med input to resemble Cinamak. You can do better than that. You didn't even check the entire dataset to understand the argument of Lazaridis.

You are placing yourself in a position where you are arguing for no reason against the available data. There are many Albanians with 55%+ ANF and < 3% WHG who obviously don't have high Slavic/East Med.

Ok, those 3 are the Kukes post-mdv. We have speculated here that Ghegs, especially along the Drin river have a strong Komani-kruja substrate. Neither argument is proven wrong here by that chart.

As for sampling, there are E-V13 samples from Croatia to Serbia and almost all of them of them require Illyrian input, some even exclusively Illyrian input. Don't think that E-V13 in Nish is closer to Bulgaria than to Croatia.

Distance to: Roman_NaissusR6764-K13-sim
0.02213177 MKD_Anc
0.02537635 ITA_Daunian
0.02641717 ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity
0.02676963 ALB_Mdv
0.02707730 HRV_PopCA
0.02861357 ALBÇinamak_Anc
0.02971838 HRV_BA
0.02987156 ITA_Rome_MA
0.02987771 MKD_BA
0.03030494 ITA_PoggioPelliccia_EMA
0.03039972 SRB_Mokrin_EBA_Maros_oAegean
0.03054300 ALB_PostMdv
0.03096004 DEU_MA_Alemannic_o2
0.03207600 HUN_IA_Syrmian_SremGroup
0.03249035 ITA_Chiusi_EMA
0.03264627 MNE_LBA
0.03441901 ITA_Tarquinia_EMA
0.03443172 HUN_EIA
0.03488831 BGR_TellKran_EBA
0.03500374 BGR_EBA
0.03528632 GRC_Logkas_MBA
0.03580020 HRV_EBA
0.03605799 ITA_Etruscan
0.03633844 HRV_Trogir_Byz
0.03635779 BGR_IA

1) The E-V13s in Croatia appear in the Roman period, only one individual appears in the context of Illyrian period. This is not even a 5% ratio. You're not being honest in your approach. E-V13 is not Illyrian, that's clear as day.
2) Nish is Dardanian-Thracian territory, not Illyrian and we have a E-V13 that's autosomially where we want it. Nish sample is actually an argument for a west Thracian or Dardanian approach.

Go back to the the chart, the Bulgarian Bronze Age samples border the Paeonian samples, all central Balkans was initially Paeonian like, You can't rule out west Thracian or Moesian being autosomally washed in this R1b reservoir, the lone Nish sample hints at this, more data will clear it up. And the same goes for Illyrians, some of them, especially the Cinamak, overlap with Paeonian. You shouldn't ignore geography here.

 

[PaleoRevenge]

I have run mine distances and clearly Alb_POSTMDV, Srb_IA and HRV_BA, HRV_IA are closer. I don't expect Kapitan Andreevo IA to be ancestors of E-V13 Albanians, really doesn't make sense archaeological wise, it would be quite strange for E-V13 to have started it spread from there, it must have been somewhere in Northern Balkans - Southern Pannonia. We already have some Early Bronze Age indications of Hatvan Culture nearby Nagyrev and just north of Vatya to have had E-V13. I bet that Vatin (it's too bad these people used cremation extensively) would be the core and most wide-spread (I don't insist since i might get surprised on this one, but it makes sense since it connects the whole Balkan-Carpathian koine).

Distance to:	Hawk_scaled
0.02568727	ALB_PostMdv:I14685
0.02996871	SVK_IA_Vekerzug:I12105
0.03011768	SRB_IA:I16814
0.03148078	HUN_MA_Szolad:SZ36
0.03208866	HUN_MA_Szolad:SZ43
0.03371399	HRV_Trogir_Byz:I15743
0.03380432	ALB_PostMdv:I15706
0.03397282	HUN_IA_Syrmian_SremGroup:I18259
0.03438320	IND_Roopkund_B:I6936
0.03471613	HRV_BA:I18748
0.03472119	MKD_Anc:I10388
0.03543410	MKD_BA:I7231
0.03554848	ALB_PostMdv:I15707
0.03557775	HUN_Avar_Late_Visonta:I16751
0.03561805	HUN_La_Tene:I18493
0.03568900	HRV_Cetina_BA:I11843
0.03569511	GRC_Logkas_MBA:Log02
0.03592481	MNE_LBA:I13775
0.03625932	ALB_PostMdv:I14686
0.03643800	HRV_Cetina_BA:I18746
0.03746636	HUN_Sarmatian_Late_Transtisza:A181027
0.03749184	DEU_MA_Alemannic_o1:NIEcap3b
0.03765095	MNE_LBA:I13168
0.03811515	HRV_Pop_CAOP39
0.03823018	HRV_EIA:I23904
0.03832633	ITA_Rome_MA:RMPR55
0.03836749	ALB_Mdv:I13834
0.03845499	ALB_Mdv:I13839
0.03854776	ALB_Cinamak_Anc:I14690
0.03856043	ALB_Cinamak_Anc:I14692
0.03868710	HUN_MA_Szolad:SZ37
0.03872304	HUN_Sarmatian_Late_Transtisza:A181024
0.03884307	MNE_LBA:I14501
0.03891187	MNE_LBA:I13167
0.03928430	MNE_LBA:I13777
0.03939485	ITA_Daunian:ORD009
0.03939553	IND_Roopkund_B:I3404
0.03943402	Scythian_MDA:scy192
0.03960220	MKD_Anc:I10384
0.03964654	ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity:RMPR33
0.03980929	HRV_EIA:I26742
0.03981943	ALB_Cinamak_Anc:I16251
0.04000153	GRC_Logkas_MBA:Log04
0.04000693	SVK_IA_Vekerzug:I12098
0.04003507	SRB_Mokrin_EBA_Maros:I23205
0.04018759	ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity:RMPR36
0.04023831	SRB_Mokrin_EBA_Maros_oAegean:MOK17A
0.04031992	Scythian_MDA:scy197
0.04048246	ITA_Tarquinia_EMA:TAQ022
0.04051295	HRV_Trogir_Byz:I15463

Target: Hawk_scaled Distance: 2.8588% / 0.02858831
60.2	TUR_Marmara_Barcin_N
39.6	Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
0.2	WHG

I was also wondering if i have elevated Yamnaya due to Slavic admixture, but i have done some comparisons and i lack the Forest Steppe that Slavs had in addition. But for sure, some must be there, just don't know how much.

I14685 I think clusters with Macedonians, she was probably a Gorani woman married to man in Kukes.

 

[PaleoRevenge]

Ok, perhaps i might overlooked, i hope i might be wrong but i suspect i am not.

I highly doubt this is mere pettiness. You'd probably be surprised, but he likely works in the Alb government, and has an interest in controlling the narrative, it has nothing to do with how he feels about certain haplogroups.

 

[Johane Derite]

Lol, he just posted about the two lectures tomorrow that will happen by matzinger and co about Albanian, and he said they are in line with Hyllested 2022 and posted that phylogeny tree. The lectures havent even happened yet and hes already doing propaganda and misinformation about them.