Where does the Albanian language come from? [VIDEO]

[Fustan]

Wishing death on another Albanian internet stranger Your intelligence is SHINING!!! I can tell you're very passionate about Albanian origins, in good faith!

These Neo-Illyrians are out of control. They hate Albanians.

 

[Excine]

These Neo-Illyrians are out of control. They hate Albanians.

It should come as no surprise that PaleoRevenge is only a sock puppet for another account. I have some thoughts, but I do not wish to investigate them any further since I believe it would be worthless because nothing would be done regardless.

 

[PaleoRevenge]

It should come as no surprise that PaleoRevenge is only a sock puppet for another account. I have some thoughts, but I do not wish to investigate them any further since I believe it would be worthless because nothing would be done regardless.

Why don't you call the FBI, "hey guys, there is this person trying to steal my "history", trillions of dollars involved, can you help me investigate? You guys don't understand, he is questioning the Illyrian theory"

 

[PaleoRevenge]

Yes, the bold part especially. Also, something which does not really ring a bell in some: there was always mobility, trade, expansions, fusions etc. such that the presence of a certain lineage in neighboring groups is not surprising.


There is an Illyrian core in both archeology and now also proven by population genetics. I would not equate Pannonians with Illyrians, they are a seperate intermediary group with a strong TC culture derived fundament to their ethnos.

With Rrenjet do you mean Alban Lauka? I am not sure if he actually would know something judging on his comments about the Lalueza Fox paper. But E1b-V13 would most likely show up in Albania. Given the results of the Bryges/Paeonians Albania will surely yield other R1b-Z2103 samples too.

I didn't pay attention to the dates but going back and seeing it from this angle. R1b-Z2103 is older in the Cinamak series, it was there before J2b(and R-L51) showed up, and remained there after the J2b expansion. So R1b-Z2103 is looking more and more like the parent population of the Messapians, should be present south of Drin in future samples.

 

[Excine]

Why don't you call the FBI, "hey guys, there is this person trying to steal my "history", trillions of dollars involved, can you help me investigate? You guys don't understand, he is questioning the Illyrian theory"

Your psychotic tendencies would make even the FBI nervous.

 

[Hawk]

We haven't really solved a lot of things like the issue of exact origin of Albanian, and the origin of E-V13 has become even more mysterious ( I am talking about where was during Bronze Age).

As for the Southern Arch paper, it's a total dissapointment, like it has been peer-reviewed by torzio and Moja. It's super rich on samples( though low quality), but the conclusions and descriptions are below standard.

 

[Excine]

We haven't really solved a lot of things like the issue of exact origin of Albanian, and the origin of E-V13 has become even more mysterious ( I am talking about where was during Bronze Age).

As for the Southern Arch paper, it's a total dissapointment, like it has been peer-reviewed by torzio and Moja. It's super rich on samples( though low quality), but the conclusions and descriptions are below standard.

It is quite unfortunate that the E-V13 in Thrace doesn't have good enough coverage, I really want to find more about my subclade in the future.

 

[Hawk]

It is quite unfortunate that the E-V13 in Thrace doesn't have good enough coverage, I really want to find more about my subclade in the future.

Not from this study for sure.

Your upclade mutation look it has some LBA to EIA shared TMRCA which i can envision somewhere in Pannonia (don't take it stamped btw, you never know).

 

[Excine]

Not from this study for sure.

Your upclade mutation look it has some LBA to EIA shared TMRCA which i can envision somewhere in Pannonia (don't take it stamped btw, you never know).

Indeed, the tales of Z5017 and Z5018 after the Iron Age will be fascinating to tell, perhaps in the distant future.

 

[epirus1000]

[FONT=&quot]"The Genetic History of the Southern Arc" published the first aDNA results from Velika Gruda, a multi-generational tumulus site of an Illyrian clan in Late Bronze Age Montenegro. All men belonged to hg J-L283. 40% of Albanian and 2% Montenegrin men descend from it in today's Montenegro.

It is weird that no one is discussing about Velika Gruda, close to todays's Tivat and Kotorr, 1450-1250 BCE. It would be great to see even the similarities with the actual Shkodra's individuals.

Generally speaking the old Tivatians and Kotorrians of 3500 years ago have moved along to the southeast to Ulqin-Malesia axis. [/FONT]

 

[Hawk]

Indeed, the tales of Z5017 and Z5018 after the Iron Age will be fascinating to tell, perhaps in the distant future.

Riverman is totally right on his approach that you need to find something, what gave advantage to certain cultural complexes to spread their lineage, he is spot on on that, i don't think Bulgaria is a possible source for many reasons, it's unlikely and never heard before being a complete minority and rolling over the previous Yamnaya like that, secondly the archeological site in Kapitan Andreevo is classified as Early Hallstattian/Eastern Hallstattian spinoff culture, they were newcomers there and it makes sense looking at the chronology of samples there, it's totally missing in Chalcolithic and EBA/MBA. You see the EEF in Bulgaria, Montenegro, Croatia, Albania were wiped off, the ones who resisted the most were the lower Danube and Tell Cultures on general from both South and North of Pannonia (they were doing good until the MBA Hugelgraber shepherd-warriors from Bavaria crossed the Alps and put Carpathian Basin and Central Europe on fire). The biggest issue so far is finding the exact location, this complex unfortunately were the world's biggest cremation cultures. They used it extensively and from them spread the idea of latter cultural diffusion.

Archaeological research is currently redefining how large-scale changes occurred in prehistoric times. In addition to the long-standing theoretical dichotomy between ‘cultural transmission’ and ‘demic diffusion’, many alternative models borrowed from sociology can be used to explain the spread of innovations. The emergence of urnfields in Middle and Late Bronze Age Europe is certainly one of these large-scale phenomena; its wide distribution has been traditionally emphasized by the use of the general term Urnenfelderkultur/zeit (starting around 1300 BC). Thanks to new evidence, we are now able to draw a more comprehensive picture, which shows a variety of regional responses to the introduction of the new funerary custom. The earliest ‘urnfields’ can be identified in central Hungary, among the tell communities of the late Nagyrév/Vatya Culture, around 2000 BC. From the nineteenth century BC onwards, the urnfield model is documented among communities in northeastern Serbia, south of the Iron Gates. During the subsequent collapse of the tell system, around 1500 BC, the urnfield model spread into some of the neighbouring regions. The adoption, however, appears more radical in the southern Po plain, as well as in the Sava/Drava/Lower Tisza plains, while in Lower Austria, Transdanubia and in the northern Po plain it seems more gradual and appears to have been subject to processes of syncretism/hybridization with traditional rites. Other areas seem to reject the novelty, at least until the latest phases of the Bronze Age. We argue that a possible explanation for these varied responses relates to the degree of interconnectedness and homophily among communities in the previous phases.

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10963-022-09164-0

 

[mount123]

"The Genetic History of the Southern Arc" published the first aDNA results from Velika Gruda, a multi-generational tumulus site of an Illyrian clan in Late Bronze Age Montenegro. All men belonged to hg J-L283. 40% of Albanian and 2% Montenegrin men descend from it in today's Montenegro.

It is weird that no one is discussing about Velika Gruda, close to todays's Tivat and Kotorr, 1450-1250 BCE. It would be great to see even the similarities with the actual Shkodra's individuals.

Generally speaking the old Tivatians and Kotorrians of 3500 years ago have moved along to the southeast to Ulqin-Malesia axis.

Yep. I have some ancestry from Albanians that moved from Kotorr to Kosovo hence why I was especially thrilled about all these samples from Kotorr. And looks like there will be more from a near site called Mala Gruda.

The Shkodra sample is from Shkrel whose dating is even older, unfortunately he is low coverage.

This is Trojet's analysis of the sample:

I8471, 1880-1695 calBCE, ALB_BA, Shkrel, Albania: J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597

He is showing negative at J-Z40052, J-Z38240, and J-Z638. The coverage is not ideal, so assuming the reads are correct, he should either be J-Y146400, J-Z2507*, or J-Z597*."

 

[1337_]

Ok, I found the quote from Herodotus, it claims mysians invaded europe with Teucrians before the trojan war, subdued the thracians and made it all the way to the Ionian sea and Peneios river in Greece:
"For of all the armies of which we have knowledge this proved to be by far the greatest; so that neither that led by Dareios against the Scythians appears anything as compared with it, nor the Scythian host, when the Scythians pursuing the Kimmerians made invasion of the Median land and subdued and occupied nearly all the upper parts of Asia, for which invasion afterwards Dareios attempted to take vengeance, nor that led by the sons of Atreus to Ilion, to judge by that which is reported of their expedition, nor that of the Mysians and Teucrians, before the Trojan War, who passed over into Europe by the Bosphorus and not only subdued all the Thracians, but came down also as far as the Ionian Sea and marched southwards to the river Peneios."

He just assumed their origin from Troy based on resemblance of the name.

 

[epirus1000]

All the focus on Cinamak individuals, but no analysis for the Velika Gruda's one. Both very important despite being different haplogroups.

 

[Johane Derite]

I attended the two lectures and all I can say is wow. Groundbreaking lecture by Matzinger with insane ramifications.

I will post screenshots later as im on phone.

What I can say is that Bruzmi lied entirely, neither of the two lectures supported Albanian being descended from llyrian

 

[Johane Derite]

Matzinger & Ackerman argue that proto-Albanian, proto-Messapic, and proto-Armenian lived in this area (not Illyrian).

The archaeological zone they believe to be connected with this language group:

According to them, Illyrian represents a yamnaya centum language, whereas proto-Albanian, proto-messapic, and proto-Armenian are a half-satemised group that left the steppe later, around 200-300 years after the proto-greeks and proto-phrygians.

According to them, Dacian and Thracian come from a later group that left even later, and was fully satemised.

 

[Johane Derite]

As for Hackstein, Im pretty sure he wrote a typo or misread something from Matzinger and Lippert 2022, since matzinger is clear there that albanian absorbed Illyrian toponyms in the post roman era.

 

[Hawk]

Interesting they mention Bubanj-Hum II, III. To me it looks this culture as a Neolithic + Yamnaya combo mix. Some Bubanj-Hum influenced Vatin Cultural Complex to the north, and the first knobbed-ware appears among them.

I think they are still playing around with options though, i think they are still missing something. Notice how on terms of Proto-Armenians they completely reject the Reich 2022 paper.

But, i agree, we have a very solid candidate on R1b-Z2103 => R1b - Z2705 as Proto-Albanoid marker.

 

[Johane Derite]

Hackstein more or less agrees thereis some sort of balkan IE, and casually references that proto-Albanians superseded the Illyrians (hence not Illyrian) after the 9th Century Bc. He references lipper and matzinger but nowhere in there book did i see a claim by them that proto-Albanian went to albania in the pre roman period, since his entire arguments in that book show that durres is post roman, shkodra is post roman, etc. I think here Hackstein has simply confused or misread something.
Hilariously, Excine and co are trying to frame these two presenters saying Albanian is not Illyrian as a "win". The very definition of a cope is not being able to accept a loss and trying to frame it as intended or desired. How fkn sad.

 

[Hawk]

To me it really looks like initially somewhere in Kosovo/Central Balkans some E-V13 tribes might have interwinged and formed the initial Proto-Albanoids? Or you think all E-V13 are simply Daco-Thracians?