Where does the Albanian language come from? [VIDEO]

[PaleoRevenge]

Like it or not, this is the consensus right now. Nobody is talking about "northern Thracians from Gava" (lol)

What consensus? In Anthrogenica all the competent members are behind the LBA/IA E-V13 invasion. You will hide behind some map made by a linguist? They did not even provide any detail for their stance, it was not even part of their content.

E-V13 seems to have been a new element in IA Bulgaria, which makes it non-Thracian by default.

LOL. Thracians are only attested in IA. So how can E-V13 be non-Thracian when it is the only haplgroup(90%) that has so far been attested in Thracians. What a clown.

"Paleo-Revenge" your actual agenda has not been forgotten

Do not forget, I need to be reminded what a moron you are.

 

[Hawk]

LOL. Thracians are only attested in IA. So how can E-V13 be non-Thracian when it is the only haplgroup(90%) that has so far been attested in Thracians. What a clown.

I was thinking the same. How can Bronze Age sites be considered Proto-Thracian and Iron Age E-V13 as intruders when chronology and current distribution favors the latter, do not mention common sense.

I would rather focus on whether the Balkan-Carpathian complex during Late Bronze Age (and especially the E-V13 specific culture within this complex) influenced some of the Illyrians like Pannonians, Dardanians and Enchelei. The latter per Macedonian archaeologist Pasko Kuzman used cremation on a pyre beneath having a low tumuli. It's too generalized, but common features are shared with the Myso-Dacians. Maybe a LBA shared element from the same complex?! Who knows.

On this occasion, special attention is given to the Tomb of the Warriors (Tomb 1) in which 6 warriors were buried together with their complete military armor. The tomb (dimensions: 5.50 x 4.50 m) was built with a row of larger limestone blocks, and after the cremation burial it was filled with amorphous stones and earth, shaping a low mound-like structure. The pyre was set in the central part of the tomb, and around it, embedded and arranged in a specially brought lake sand, were the military attributes: 6 bronze helmets, 11 greaves, and 15 iron spears, with features suggesting some military subordination or simply warriors who have died in a battle being “the Leader and his comrades.”

https://pebasite.wordpress.com/peba-2020/representations-of-power-an-ancient-macedonian-elite/

 

[PaleoRevenge]

In a awkward way they want to argue for continuity in Bulgaria while acknowledging a massive turnover. Eventually they end up having to do this for more than one location, for continuity to work at home, they have to hold adjacent realms still as well.
By necessity they have become the flag bearers of debunked communist no migration theories for other countries. It's a preemptive defense to the domino effect that's happening all around them.

I remember when Brumi got the Alb thread locked because he ended up arguing high concentrations of Slavic haplgroups in Korca are proof of Alb continuity by providing a single sub-clade example that applied to only one person in Bilisht district.

 

[Excine]

How can Bronze Age sites be considered Proto-Thracian and Iron Age E-V13 as intruders when chronology and current distribution favors the latter, do not mention common sense.

You're complaining about it as if what I'm saying was invented by Albanians on the internet. Archaeologists and linguists definitely consider the Proto-Thracians to be a Bronze Age people. Lazaridis writes that Thracian was spoken in the BA Balkans etc. This is the consensus, like it or not and nobody is investigating any Proto-Thracians in Hungary. Just as there were Proto-Illyrians in the Bronze Age, so were there Proto-Greeks, Proto-Thracians, Proto-Phrygians. If E-V13 hasn't been found in BA Romania or Bulgaria or Moldova, how exactly is it "Proto-Thracian"?

You may not like what I'm saying but you won't find any paper which will call E-V13 "Proto-Thracian" if it's not found in the BA in any of these areas.

If E-V13 came to IA Bulgaria from the BA central Balkans, then, depending on the clade, it could be present in both western and eastern Balkan populations.

Lastly, why are we having this discussion here? The E-V13 subclades in IA Bulgaria aren't even related to Albanians. When we find the E-V13 which are linked to Albanians, we should discuss about the possibilities, but the southeastern ones are distant to Albanians.

 

[Hawk]

You're complaining about it as if what I'm saying was invented by Albanians on the internet. Archaeologists and linguists definitely consider the Proto-Thracians to be a Bronze Age people. Lazaridis writes that Thracian was spoken in the BA Balkans etc. This is the consensus, like it or not and nobody is investigating any Proto-Thracians in Hungary. Just as there were Proto-Illyrians in the Bronze Age, so were there Proto-Greeks, Proto-Thracians, Proto-Phrygians. If E-V13 hasn't been found in BA Romania or Bulgaria or Moldova, how exactly is it "Proto-Thracian"?

You may not like what I'm saying but you won't find any paper which will call E-V13 "Proto-Thracian" if it's not found in the BA in any of these areas.

If E-V13 came to IA Bulgaria from the BA central Balkans, then, depending on the clade, it could be present in both western and eastern Balkan populations.

Lastly, why are we having this discussion here? The E-V13 subclades in IA Bulgaria aren't even related to Albanians. When we find the E-V13 which are linked to Albanians, we should discuss about the possibilities, but the southeastern ones are distant to Albanians.

Firstly, i am not complaining lol, just stating the logical fallacy of yours. And you don't represent Albanians here, you represent yourself.

I know very well about the archaeological data, i have read quite a lot about it and obviously you are just misinforming the general readers. Besides that, quote us the mysterious archaeologists with precise paper citations, don't make foggy statements. Because these kind of statements require chronology to be explained.

The E-V13 found in South-East Bulgaria are related with Insula Banului, Babadag, and the latter Bassarabi, the LBA-EIA Hallstattization period, or Eastern Hallstatt groups. These are uber -Thracian cultural complexes, 100% uniformly agreed by Romanian, Hungarian, Bulgarian, Serbian archaeologists, a zone which Daco-Thracians expanded and is of interest to local archaeologists. And they came from Northern Bulgaria <> South-West Romania and North-Eastern Serbia area. Last time i checked, that's Balkans, not Venus or Jupiter. This complex is usually lumped and called into Balkan-Carpathian Cultural Complex. Similar groups expanded not only down to South-East Bulgaria where Early Iron Age E-V13 were found but Greek Macedonia, Thessalia and down to Troy where they are known as Bukkelkeramik or Knobbed-Ware groups. Also, in Western Balkans they expanded moreso into South/Western Pannonia and Eastern Slavonia, so no wonder some E-V13 is showing around there in Iron Age.

You should come up with chronology, not if, somewhere, maybe, Central Balkans. Central Balkans what, where, timeline-period, subclade analysis. Anyone can make such foggy statements.

As for the subclades, some of them barely got E-V13 calls, so i highly suspect your way of debating, only 1 or 2 E-V13-ers were downstream classified, and just slightly downsteam E-V13, probably one or two sub-trees.

 

[Hawk]

Like it or not, this is the consensus right now. Nobody is talking about "northern Thracians from Gava" (lol)

Speaking of which, the irony of it.

Romanian archaeologist take:

Descoperirile arheologice din nordul Olteniei din epoca
hallstattului ne-au dus la formularea unor concluzii. Se poate
considera că în secolul XII - XI în. d. Chr. fenomenul de
hallstattizare, privind din punctul de vedere al culturii materiale, era
încheiat, iar tracii erau definitiv formaţi la nivelul culturilor Gava -
Holihrady şi Babadag - Insula Banului - Cozia - Psenicevo.

The archaeological discoveries in northern Oltenia from the era
Hallstatt led us to formulate some conclusions. May
considered that in the 12th - 11th century d. Chr. the phenomenon of
Hallstattization, looking from the point of view of material culture, was
ended, and the Thracians were definitively formed at the level of the Gava cultures -
Holihrady and Babadag - Insula Banului - Cozia - Psenicevo.

PRIMA EPOCĂ A FIERULUIÎN NORDUL OLTENIEI Rezumatul tezei de doctorat - dr. Gheorghe Calotoiu

Hungarian archaeologist take:

By the end of the Late Bronze Age, the people of the Gáva culture, who buried cremated remains in urns, and related groups had expanded their domain. Their settlements and burial places are found not only in Transylvania, but also in the Banat, in areas east of the Tisza, and, east of the Carpathians, in Galicia and Bessarabia (Holihrad and Kisinyov cultures). Some of their groups travelled across the wooded steppes as far as the Dnieper River. Judging from the material evidence, peoples who lived at this time south of {1-36.} the Carpathians, in Wallachia and northern Bulgaria, spoke a language related to that of the Gáva culture (Babadag and Pšeničevo cultures). This region is roughly contiguous with the subsequent settlement areas of the Dacians, Gaetians, and Mysians.

https://mek.oszk.hu/03400/03407/html/9.html

Gabor Vekony

At this moment Psenicevo Culture is the one from Svilengrad/Kapitan Andreevo which bore almost all samples E-V13.

 

[Archetype0ne]

Speaking of which, the irony of it.

Romanian archaeologist take:





PRIMA EPOCĂ A FIERULUIÎN NORDUL OLTENIEI Rezumatul tezei de doctorat - dr. Gheorghe Calotoiu

Hungarian archaeologist take:



Gabor Vekony

At this moment Psenicevo Culture is the one from Svilengrad/Kapitan Andreevo which bore almost all samples E-V13.

So if I understand this
1. Gava ~ Psenicevo & Bagadag
2. Since some hold that Thracians are related to Gava
3. And Kapitan Andreevo is part of the Psenicevo culture

Then very likely E-V13 was the main Thracian marker.

Ngl, if those 3 connections hold this sounds very plausible.



How do the Kapitan autosomal results compare to these? https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6443937/
I wonder if they ever get to test the above for Y.

 

[Hawk]

So if I understand this
1. Gava ~ Psenicevo & Bagadag
2. Since some hold that Thracians are related to Gava
3. And Kapitan Andreevo is part of the Psenicevo culture

Then very likely E-V13 was the main Thracian marker.

Ngl, if those 3 connections hold this sounds very plausible.



How do the Kapitan autosomal results compare to these? https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6443937/
I wonder if they ever get to test the above for Y.

Psenicevo and Babadag are likely related to Gava, not directly descended IMO, the opinion that Psenicevo is directly descended from Gava is an opinion held up by old Bulgarian archaeologists, maybe that's true but i wouldn't be sure, especially that they were almost chronologically contemporary cultures. Psenicevo and Babadag came from somewhere in Southern Carpathian, what's sure is that they were part of Balkan-Carpathian cultural complex. And if i have to make another educated guess, from where do Albanian E-V13 stem from, that's the Belegis-Gava II and could be also from Vatin (this is disputed, Vatin could have been a R1b-Z2103 sphere with J2b2-L283 near Belotic Bela Crkva) or it could be the three Albanian Y-DNA present among them, E-V13, R1b-Z2103, and J2b2-L283. But, it's highly disputed, the bad part is that Vatin extensively used cremation in urns burial, except for Western part which usually is considered even ethnically different and perhaps just had either interrmarragies and cultural interactions with core Vatin.

As for the autosomal, they did have a lot of EEF, but their EEF is very diverse and it includes Carpathian EEF + Chalcolithic Bulgarian + Aegean + the Steppe Yamnaya. But then we saw those two Himeran E-V13'ers which were half Balkanian half Central-European-like and one E-V13 looking Caucasus-like, to me that's quite an indication with what we are dealing with, a zone between Balkans and Carpathian Basin is what we look for.

 

[Archetype0ne]

Psenicevo and Babadag are likely related to Gava, not directly descended IMO, the opinion that Psenicevo is directly descended from Gava is an opinion held up by old Bulgarian archaeologists, maybe that's true but i wouldn't be sure. Psenicevo and Babadag came from somewhere in Southern Carpathian, what's sure is that they were part of Balkan-Carpathian cultural complex. And if i have to make another educated guess, from where do Albanian E-V13 stem from, that's the Belegis-Gava II and could be also from Vatin (this is disputed, Vatin could have been a R1b-Z2103 sphere with J2b2-L283 near Belotic Bela Crkva) or it could be the three Albanian Y-DNA present among them, E-V13, R1b-Z2103, and J2b2-L283. But, it's highly disputed, the bad part is that Vatin extensively used cremation in urns burial, except for Western part which usually is considered even ethnically different and perhaps just had either interrmarragies and cultural interactions with core Vatin.

As for the autosomal, they did have a lot of EEF, but their EEF is very diverse and it includes Carpathian EEF + Chalcolithic Bulgarian + Aegean + the Steppe Yamnaya. But then we saw those two Himeran E-V13'ers which were half Balkanian half Central-European-like and one E-V13 looking Caucasus-like, to me that's quite an indication with what we are dealing with, a zone between Balkans and Carpathian Basin is what we look for.

Makes sense, thanks.

 

[PaleoRevenge]

On the 6th of October in Prishtina, Katja Ackermann & Joachim Matzinger presented their new study "Settlement Dynamics and Toponomastics of the Balkans: Albanian-speaking areas” with first conclusions. Nothing about it shared with the public by the Academy of Sciences (ASHAK).

https://mobile.twitter.com/AlbHistory/status/1605550400068886530/photo/1

I found the video online

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ErnCrqFjVdg

 

[PaleoRevenge]

I found the video online

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ErnCrqFjVdg

Nothing got disclosed, it was more of a sales pitch for the project. One journalist brought her perceived "grievances" that some toponyms are only Slavic because the Slavs had a direct relation with the Austrio-Germanic world and transmitted their versions of the toponyms. Matzinger just nods in agreement and takes notes, not a confrontational person.

Matzinger did though claim Shkodra evolved through Albanian phonetic changes, which I think contradicts his official position in published papers. Someone who is more familiar with the matter can clear this up.

 

[Johane Derite]

Nothing got disclosed, it was more of a sales pitch for the project. One journalist brought her perceived "grievances" that some toponyms are only Slavic because the Slavs had a direct relation with the Austrio-Germanic world and transmitted their versions of the toponyms. Matzinger just nods in agreement and takes notes, not a confrontational person.

Matzinger did though claim Shkodra evolved through Albanian phonetic changes, which I think contradicts his official position in published papers. Someone who is more familiar with the matter can clear this up.

He was diplomatic about it, but its in the photo in the back, he says Shkodra shows Albanian development, but of the same era as when it got the latin loans, i.e. this toponym was learnt only at the same time as when Albanians got latin loans.

The photo in the back says that sk would be h in albanian and o would be a in Albanian if this was an inherited toponym

 

[torzio]

Hkadra is what was meant

we know he knows albanian fluently

 

[Hawk]

Hkadra is what was meant

we know he knows albanian fluently

Hkadra is such a tongue twisting word in Albanian. It's so unnatural. I have no knowledge on linguistics but i put my hands on fire for this word, i don't think any Proto-Albanian population would pronounce Hkadra. IDK.

 

[torzio]

Hkadra is such a tongue twisting word in Albanian. It's so unnatural. I have no knowledge on linguistics but i put my hands on fire for this word, i don't think any Proto-Albanian population would pronounce Hkadra. IDK.

the H was probably silent in pronunciation

 

[Johane Derite]

Hkadra is such a tongue twisting word in Albanian. It's so unnatural. I have no knowledge on linguistics but i put my hands on fire for this word, i don't think any Proto-Albanian population would pronounce Hkadra. IDK.

Nowhere does Matzinger say hkadra, that is torzio's misreading.

Matzinger has given the form it should have in Albanian if this was an inherited toponym from the pre-roman era: *Hádër

 

[Johane Derite]

Matzinger's direct quote:

 

[torzio]

Nowhere does Matzinger say hkadra, that is torzio's misreading.
Matzinger has given the form it should have in Albanian if this was an inherited toponym from the pre-roman era: *Hádër

fair enough

I thought he said out of Shkodra ..........but you say out of Shkoder ( Shkodër, which is german type )

Only proves, someone cannot get their act together...........ask the government to see if they know

Shkodra is otherwise known as the capital from where your travel to visit the northwest of Albania can start. It is a city and a municipality in northwestern Albania

Shkodër, also called Shkodra

 

[Pashai Janinës]

Coloniae Scodranorum - The colony of Shkodra

There was an interesting archeological discovery recently of a III-rd century A.D. plaque in the Rozafa castle in Shkodra thanks to the work done by a joint Albanian-Polish team of archeologists.

https://www.persee.fr/doc/iliri_1727-2548_2014_num_38_1_2463

This is the text of the plaque in Latin: C(aio) C(ai) f(ilio) Memmio Iulio maioriario, caliga prima, optioni primipilariorum, 5 subcommentar(i) ensi, comment[ ar](i) ensi, corniculario pr(a) ef(ectorum) praetorio, primipilari, v(iro) e(gregio), ducenario, 10 patrono, ordo splendidissimus coloniae Scodranorum. Feli(citer).

English translation: Caio Cai, the son of Memio Iulius the senior, first caliga (roman military sandal) chosen primipilar (the centurion of the first cohort of the roman Legion), protector of the sub commentary and commentary (registry), the officer who became a chief (praetor), commander of a ducenary (200 soldiers), protector/patron, distinguished captain of the colony of Shkodra. Fortuitously.

 

[Pashai Janinës]

1474
George Merula:
The Siege of Shkodra
The Italian humanist and historian George Merula (1430-1494), also known as Georgius Merula Alexandrinus or Giorgio Merlano di Negro, was born in Alessandria in northern Italy. He studied in Milan under Francesco Filelfo in 1444-1446 and later in Rome, Padua and Mantua. From 1465-1482, he was professor of rhetoric in Venice. Invited back to Lombardy by Ludovico il Moro of the powerful Sforza dynasty, he taught in Padua (1483-1485) and finally at the Accademia in Milan (1485-1494). Aside from his editions and commentaries of many Roman authors, Merula is the author of a moving description of the Turkish siege of Shkodra (Bellum Scodrense), composed in Latin in September 1474. The fortress of Shkodra finally fell to the Ottoman Turks in January 1479.
The local people call the town Shkodra in their language and the language of their forefathers, whereas the Italians have now given it a new foreign name, Scutari.
Source:http://www.albanianhistory.net/1474_Merula/index.html

Source: http://real-r.mtak.hu/161/