Where does the Albanian language come from? [VIDEO]

[mount123]

When Bruzmi was saying that Cetina will be J-L283 long before the publication of the Southern Arc, you were supporting Riverman and the rest of that group who really didn't want Cetina to be J-L283 and now you're pretending here that you always supported Cetina to be J-L283.

That is not true at all. J2b-L283 thread page 11 from the other forum:

I agree with your conclusion re: Tumulus Culture. I had looked at this Tumulus Culture for some time, but since they had never found any ancient L283 amongst the Unetice, who preceded the TC, I had concluded that L283 was unlikely to be linked to original TC lineages.

Trojet has mentioned the Cetina Culture. I think the focus might be on Cetina and Posusje Cultures from here on out, with possible distant ties to Alpine Bell Beakers further down the road.

Question: Are you able to run this graph for J2b L283 alongside R1b L23/L51? I’m wanting to compare each at the 3500 BC to 4000 BC mark. Since L283 has a TMRCA of 5500 ybp, I’m assuming L283 can’t be extended any further to the left?

As of right know there is no DNA to back this TC hypotheses up and it seems quite unlikely in my opinion. Edit: I misunderstood your response. I too think J2b-L283 cannot be linked to TC culture.

Agreed. I think when the ancient L283 Z38240 https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z38240/ kid was discovered in Veliki Vanik years ago underneath a tumulus, it looked like a possible link to the Tumulus Culture. However, the best explanations that I’ve seen so far tie his burial to this Posusje Culture. Posusje, Cetina, and Ljubljana Cultures are high on my list.

Mine too.

I have joined this and the other forum at the end of 2021. My guesses have always been around Cetina, Dinaric and also to a lesser extent Ljubljana Culture. The first archaeogenetic attestation we got was around Dinaric culture sites but with the abundance of newer samples it was proven that it is nothing than just a late phase of Cetina.

 

[mount123]

He said that Proto-Thracians weren't E-V13 based on BA samples and guess what? They weren't and nobody thinks what only a small fringe group propagated on internet fora supports.

Interesting that you used a map of linguist Matzinger's suggestions.
Yes. Bruzmi did claim that they were what they weren't. He talked about Iron Age samples and Archetype did too claim to know of batches that supposedly had 0% E1b.

...I am not talking about Bronze but Iron Age samples.

I don't really care about Iron Age Thracians as they are not relevant to my patrilineage. There was the need for the personlization of certain topics by some people and I wanted to set clear that I wasn't in the wrong when pointing out "fake news" and what a friend of mine who indeed has a scientific background and did know about the samples in question told me about.

 

[Excine]

That is not true at all. J2b-L283 thread page 11 from the other forum:







I have joined this and the other forum at the end of 2021. My guesses have always been around Cetina, Dinaric and also to a lesser extent Ljubljana Culture. The first archaeogenetic attestation we got was around Dinaric culture sites but with the abundance of newer samples it was proven that it is nothing than just a late phase of Cetina.

On the other forum you always supported what Riverman and co. said which is that "Posusje" might J-L283 but Cetina isn't. Don't make me get all your comments and "likes" towards Riverman. When Trojet came forward and said the same thing as Bruzmi (Trojet had actually said the same thing a few years earlier), you stopped commenting, but let's review one of your earlier posts:


https://anthrogenica.com/showthread...rigin-of-E-V13&p=854952&viewfull=1#post854952 once more you get an explanation (before the SA publication) that there's just 1 J-L283 sample from MBA Albania and this is evidence for Cetina Proto-Illyrians before Glasinac-Mati in Albania.

You knew that there is just one sample because another user told you and he learned about it from Bruzmi. So what did you do with this information? You straight up lied that there are "more Bronze Age J-L283 samples from multiple sites in Albania" and that someone is hiding this information. You did so in order to throw mud against the people who gave you the information (pa pike burrnie) Therefore you can stay here, have a chat with Paleo-Revenge (lol) and wait for those who do serious work to post results on the other forum.

For Thracians, keep taking comments out of context to make fake points, you're doing great. The point is that Proto-Thracians weren't E-V13 which is what was claimed by the entire group that you support.

PS It's really funny how about the J-L283 in Peloponnese you just went on anthrogenica and basically copy/pasted Bruzmi's response here. Thank you for spreading around the work of people who aren't on eupedia. Good job!

 

[mount123]

I am not taking anything out of context. You claimed Bruzmi made comments solely on Bronze Age Bulgarian samples but from his posts it is evident that that is not the case and he explicitly more than once talks about how IA Bulgarian samples will be what he claimed them to be. That is the definition of lying.

This is the initial bizarre reaction of Wikipedia's Maleschreiber when Patterson/Reich et. al. 2021 was published. Imagine posting this on an anthroforum about a paternal lineage the irony and disrespect :

Homogeneity is an autosomal feature. It's not about haplogroup < patrilineal descent. Haplogroups are not population groups and they don't carry any culture. This also tells us that we need to abandon this weird male-centric fetishization which treats haplogroups as if they were self-standing entities which reproduced by themselves.

J-L283 has this profile because they intermarried (took & gave wives and husbands) from other clans which were non-J-L283. In my opinion, this is what created this very similar autosomal profile for many of the J-L283 and also E-V13 samples which have been found.

 

[mount123]

On the other forum you always supported what Riverman and co. said which is that "Posusje" might J-L283 but Cetina isn't. Don't make me get all your comments and "likes" towards Riverman. When Trojet came forward and said the same thing as Bruzmi (Trojet had actually said the same thing a few years earlier)

I have proven above that Cetina, Dinaric and Ljubljana were my initial guesses and that the initial archaeogenetic attestation was around Dinaric sites which was indeed the case at the time. What you are writing is repetitive.

As for Mygdalia, I shared a post which user Peloponnesian initially posted first and foremost. I shared links to papers which over the time I have asked in the J2b-L283 thread my fellow members about. Links to certain papers which have been shared by Trojet, Polska etc. I have openely asked about it as I was eager to learn more about EBA-MBA Cetina (and its late phase MBA Dinaric) culture and did want to go through useful sources. That is what you do when you want to learn about something and what better place to ask such questions than in an anthroforum.

PS It's really funny how about the J-L283 in Peloponnese you just went on anthrogenica and basically copy/pasted Bruzmi's response here. Thank you for spreading around the work of people who aren't on eupedia. Good job!

These papers aren't the work of Wikipedia's Maleschreiber/Bruzmi they are the work of archeologists. That internet enthusiast doesn't own the rights to these papers. This is comedic.

 

[mount123]

As for sharing rumors: Why doesn't Archetype tell you about the J2b-L283 rumor among Myceneans that I told him about?

My reply to him via email June 6th 2022:

"Interesting I am not sure what you exactly mean here. But let me get this straight I would actually expect J2b-L283 in Macedonia too, to say the least. This would not be surprising to me especially the time frame. Illyrians or Proto-Illyrians penetrating further into the Southern Central Balkans and even Eastern Balkans is an attested historical fact. Might want to make Bardylis responsible for this. Also at some point they also mixed with other groups of people or what do you think how us Albanians popped out of the oven.

Wasn't there even the leaked or low coverage Mycenean J2b-L283, remember that?"

Of course the reason is not Bardylis :embarassed: but EBA-MBA Cetina (its late phase MBA Dinaric) and later on IA movements.

I knew about this rumor from a fellow Hungarian J2b-L283 member over at facebook (there is a very good chance that it isn't just Mygdalia ). Does this mean my life depends on wether people share this rumor or not? Do I have the ownership over a leak? It is beneficial sharing such stuff on a patrilineage thread.

 

[Excine]

I am not taking anything out of context. You claimed Bruzmi made comments solely on Bronze Age Bulgarian samples but from his posts it is evident that that is not the case and he explicitly more than once talks about how IA Bulgarian samples will be what he claimed them to be. That is the definition of lying.

This is the initial bizarre reaction of Wikipedia's Maleschreiber when Patterson/Reich et. al. 2021 was published. Imagine posting this on an anthroforum about a paternal lineage the irony and disrespect :

OK, so as usual you have nothing to reply even about your own posts about the "multiple sites". Good job.

The only irony here is that you think by showing such a post you're "discrediting" anyone. You're making them a favour by re-posting good arguments.

This is exactly how ethnic groups are created. Haplogroups aren't ethnic groups and while in your head you might think that you descend from J-L283, the ratio of haplogroups of your ancestors is exactly the same as the average Albanian who might be E-V13 or R-Z2103 or J-L283 or R-L1029 or J1-FGC12816. You have roughly the same number of J-L283 ancestors as any other Albanian regardless of their haplogroup. You don't descend "just" from your haplogroup. In fact, you mostly don't descend from your haplogroup. It really is just your exact patrilineal ancestry and if the only thing you had in common with Illyrians was the fact that you personally carry J-L283 then you would have fewer Illyrian ancestors than an Albanian who doesn't carry J-L283. It might be shocking to someone like you, but it's the reality.

Guess what this ratio of ancestors creates over a long period? An autosomal profile which is the signal of an ethnic group, which itself is much more than autosomal profiles. It's a cultural and social union.

So yeahhh, Cetina J-L283 males have this autosomal profile because of intermarriage with other groups who carried other haplogroups and over time the common Illyrian autosomal cline was created from north to south.

 

[mount123]

This is just repetitive. I addressed all falsehoods you made about me in my replies to you.

auDNA is what makes up the entire ancestry and that is quite clear, obviously, and I never claimed otherwise. Though uniparentals are essential in tracing our ancestral origin, that is a fact. Albanians are more or less the same autosomally. Some might be a bit more there some a tiny bit more here on a PCA. This was something which I did not even talk about.

There is no statistical basis for the stuff you write and I am not going to comment on it. Besides I, by solely coincidence, am also on my mother's paternal side J2b-L283>Z1043>Y22894. That of course won't apply to all of the many paternal lines within my family tree, never claimed such a thing.

The intention behind Maleschreiber's post was to cope with the paternal homogenity of an ancient Western Balkan people he obsesses over so much. You are blending out the pseudoscientific E1b correlation suggestion of Maleschreiber, using a PCA with medieval samples next to actual BA/IA samples.

Anyways, we can agree to disagree on many matters and that is okay.

 

[torzio]

So yeahhh, Cetina J-L283 males have this autosomal profile because of intermarriage with other groups who carried other haplogroups and over time the common Illyrian autosomal cline was created from north to south.

the bulk of that line is Northern Balkan ..........ie modern slovenia and croatia

 

[eupator]

The only way to be certain of patrilinear lineage down the line throughout the passing of thousands of years is through Y-DNA, and to a much lesser extent through mtDNA for the maternal side.

Autosomals are entirely washed out in the span of 10 generations meaning that your ancestor 11 generations ago has completely disappeared, the only thing that's left in terms of actual biological connection to you is possible similarity on a PCA.

Only his Y-DNA (or her mtDNA respectively) remains.

So in that sense, only Y-DNA (/mtDNA) can confirm or discard the trace of genealogy in such lengthy time-spans.

For example, the way we can be certain of the lasting impact of historical migrations is through the occurence of such markers, like Y-DNA

Ssomeone from Crete may plot entirely like his neighbors and have sites like mytrueancestry tell him that he's the real descendant of the Minoans based on a plot, but maybe it's his Y-DNA that can tell the whole truth.

If it's Ia2-din, for instance, then we know this person is a successful lineage that stems from the Slavic migrations/invasions into the medieval Helladic space, one that made a long lasting impact, maybe at the expense of another older lineage that was forced to leave or even wiped out.

As such, the historical presence of Slavs in the Helladic space (and of Vlachs and others) can only be realised through the frequency of their markers since their autosomals had plenty of time to move away from the original ancestral population, etc.

 

[Hawk]

He said that Proto-Thracians weren't E-V13 based on BA samples and guess what? They weren't and nobody thinks what only a small fringe group propagated on internet fora supports.

Proto-Thracians were in Thrace in the Bronze Age:

The discoveries of massive migrations from the steppe both westward into Central and Western Europe (4, 8), and eastward into South Siberia (4) and Central/South Asia (34), have provided powerful evidence for the theory of steppe Indo-European origins by linking populations all the way from Northwest Europe (36) to India and China through common steppe ancestry. The present study adds further support to the theory by the discovery of ubiquitous ancestry from the steppe in the Bronze Age Balkans [where, indubitably, Indo-European, Paleo-Balkan languages such as Thracian and Illyrian (41) were spoken], including individuals of predominantly steppe ancestry; (...) (Lazaridis, Southern Arc, Papers)

Matzinger considers them to have moved there in 2600-2500 BC:

So, suddenly Matzinger from "Johane Derite's lover" becomes a man worthy of quoting?

Matzinger is a linguist, he cannot know archaeological record when did Proto-Thracian enter classical known Thrace. For the Der Illyrer book the archaeological part was written by the Vienna Professor Andreas Lippert, Matzinger didn't even touch that part. He was extensively focused on linguistic aspect.

He tries to simplify things, Proto-Thracian was for sure a Yamnaya/Steppe derived language ultimately, but how and when did it enter Thrace that's up to discussion still. Well known Hungarian archaeologist Gabor Vekony has explicitely stated that Thracians constituted of Southern Thracians (Psenicevo and Babagad, already full of E-V13, South-East Bulgarian Early-Middle Iron Age) and Gava up north. And these cultures were related and spoke related languages.

By the end of the Late Bronze Age, the people of the Gáva culture, who buried cremated remains in urns, and related groups had expanded their domain. Their settlements and burial places are found not only in Transylvania, but also in the Banat, in areas east of the Tisza, and, east of the Carpathians, in Galicia and Bessarabia (Holihrad and Kisinyov cultures). Some of their groups travelled across the wooded steppes as far as the Dnieper River. Judging from the material evidence, peoples who lived at this time south of {1-36.} the Carpathians, in Wallachia and northern Bulgaria, spoke a language related to that of the Gáva culture (Babadag and Pšeničevo cultures). This region is roughly contiguous with the subsequent settlement areas of the Dacians, Gaetians, and Mysians.https://mek.oszk.hu/03400/03407/html/9.html

Well, he was absolutely right, the Psenicevo E-V13 archaeologically came from somewhere in Northern Serbia/Southern Romania/North-Western Bulgaria.

When Bruzmi was saying that Cetina will be J-L283 long before the publication of the Southern Arc, you were supporting Riverman and the rest of that group who really didn't want Cetina to be J-L283 and now you're pretending here that you always supported Cetina to be J-L283.

He saw the leaks and said so, there were people who hypothesized that J2b2-L283 might be related with Cetina based long time ago. There was a confusion in the past, especially because Cetina is not such a well known EBA archaeological site, hence it has such few material to read upon. That few material we have from Croatian archaeologists state that they were mainly descended from Eneolithic people with some Bell-Beaker influence. In the past since E-L618 was found in Neolithic Cardium site in Croatia, some people thought it might fit E-V13 after all.

And, the funny thing is Riverman was never proponent of E-V13 = Cetina, but he was never an opponent of J2b2-L283 = Cetina either. He simply rarely or never mentioned it. I don't think it's fair and just you put him in equation here. First he was accussed of putting the Sardinian theory now Cetina stuff which i don't even understand your thought process. I think it's a bluff from your part.

 

[Fustan]

On the other forum you always supported what Riverman and co. said which is that "Posusje" might J-L283 but Cetina isn't. Don't make me get all your comments and "likes" towards Riverman. When Trojet came forward and said the same thing as Bruzmi (Trojet had actually said the same thing a few years earlier), you stopped commenting, but let's review one of your earlier posts:


https://anthrogenica.com/showthread...rigin-of-E-V13&p=854952&viewfull=1#post854952 once more you get an explanation (before the SA publication) that there's just 1 J-L283 sample from MBA Albania and this is evidence for Cetina Proto-Illyrians before Glasinac-Mati in Albania.

You knew that there is just one sample because another user told you and he learned about it from Bruzmi. So what did you do with this information? You straight up lied that there are "more Bronze Age J-L283 samples from multiple sites in Albania" and that someone is hiding this information. You did so in order to throw mud against the people who gave you the information (pa pike burrnie) Therefore you can stay here, have a chat with Paleo-Revenge (lol) and wait for those who do serious work to post results on the other forum.

For Thracians, keep taking comments out of context to make fake points, you're doing great. The point is that Proto-Thracians weren't E-V13 which is what was claimed by the entire group that you support.

PS It's really funny how about the J-L283 in Peloponnese you just went on anthrogenica and basically copy/pasted Bruzmi's response here. Thank you for spreading around the work of people who aren't on eupedia. Good job!

Riverman has never been correct with regards to our haplogroups. I still like that he posts a lot of crap because I end up learning a lot from Bruzmi's replies and refutations to his positions.

 

[mount123]

The only way to be certain of patrilinear lineage down the line throughout the passing of thousands of years is through Y-DNA, and to a much lesser extent through mtDNA for the maternal side.

Autosomals are entirely washed out in the span of 10 generations meaning that your ancestor 11 generations ago has completely disappeared, the only thing that's left in terms of actual biological connection to you is possible similarity on a PCA.

Only his Y-DNA (or her mtDNA respectively) remains.

So in that sense, only Y-DNA (/mtDNA) can confirm or discard the trace of genealogy in such lengthy time-spans.

For example, the way we can be certain of the lasting impact of historical migrations is through the occurence of such markers, like Y-DNA

Ssomeone from Crete may plot entirely like his neighbors and have sites like mytrueancestry tell him that he's the real descendant of the Minoans based on a plot, but maybe it's his Y-DNA that can tell the whole truth.

If it's I-Y3120, for instance, then we know this person is a successful lineage that stems from the Slavic migrations/invasions into the medieval Helladic space, one that made a long lasting impact, maybe at the expense of another older lineage that was forced to leave or even wiped out.

As such, the historical presence of Slavs in the Helladic space (and of Vlachs and others) can only be realised through the frequency of their markers since their autosomals had plenty of time to move away from the original ancestral population, etc.

Great post! Absolutely agree.

 

[PaleoRevenge]

Why would mount be obligated to oppose J2b being associated with Cetina culture? It's a correct assessment. The irony here is how you have no problem associating a culture with a haplogroup while still sh!ttaking about Thracians becoming E-V13 for no reason, no one knows why, it just showed up one day and became their kings.

 

[Archetype0ne]

Out of the ancient samples we have so far, from Bulgaria, North Macedonia and Romania, how many out of the total are E-V13?
From how many sites?

Does the representation in the sample constitute an overwhelming majority? If so during which periods, and in which locations...

See, the real questions are much simpler than the intellectual masturbations from substandard thinkers in this thread as well as others would have one believe (24 component atemporal, drift sharing, overfit models, sadge).


While the sample size is not conductive to a definite answer as of now, if we were to answer with what we have: "No, historical Thracians were not predominantly E-V13, or even majority E-V13". Could they be should more samples represent another trend? OFC.

 

[PaleoRevenge]

That's because you lack integrity. IA Bulgaria is blatantly different from BA Bulgaria and Romania. Not only is there a haplogroup swap, but the aDNA is completely different, a total disruption. What you wish to label "historical Thracians" is plain false and pure dishonesty.

overfit models

LMAO, the fit is only measurement that trumps everything, it's the only way the calc is meant to function. That's what you been reduced to cheese boy, to speak like a rodent.


I understand why you and your team want to lower standards, that way any(failing) model is just as legit as any other, and no argument can be made in absolute since it can't be measured (you attack the measurement itself), and so all debates devolve to "intellectual masturbations" you claim to loathe.

 

[Archetype0ne]

I lack integrity cause I ask questions (you don't like the answers to)?

Meanwhile your 20 component overfit models with overlapping ancestry/shared drift, fairy tale fanfics are the gold standard of integrity?

I don't have to label anyone, there are professionals who study history that already did. We know who the Thracians are.

You claiming "the fit is only measurement that trumps everything" tells me all I need to know regarding your utter incompetence with even user friendly tools like G25.

I like cheese just not the Swiss cheese your models are, too many holes in them, trypophobia.
That more people upvote your garbage can only mean mental illness is on the rise.

I don't need, nor have a team, but I still dunk on randoms like you. Take care.

 

[Excine]

@Hawk I'm using Matzinger not because I agree with him but because I want to show that even Matzinger ( whose work until recently some of the people who have been banned on anthrogenica distorted to gain support for their own crazy theories) supports the exact opposite of what most of the banned people of this thread support.

@"Paleo-Revenge" The case is that the Southern Arc papers and all linguists who spoke at the Leiden conference consider Thracian to have been spoken in Bronze Age Thrace. E-V13 hasn't been found in Bronze Age Thrace and it's not linked to any of the areas where acceptable theories place the Bronze Age Proto-Thracians, which means that E-V13 isn't Proto-Thracian.

Like it or not, this is the consensus right now. Nobody is talking about "northern Thracians from Gava" (lol)

E-V13 seems to have been a new element in IA Bulgaria, which makes it non-Thracian by default. We don't know if there is any turnover in IA Romania because we don't have any samples from IA Romania, but among the many samples from BA Romania, there's no E-V13 and this is supposedly where E-V13 should have been massive even in the BA. I'll count Maros culture which started from Transylvania and extended to Serbia in this case too. E-V13 should be massive in BA Maros if it was massive in Transylvania. Not even a single sample has been found and this a culture which has even provided one J-L283. It'll important to see how IA Dacia shows up in the archaeogenetic record, but so far there isn't any E-V13 in any of the archaeological cultures which Romanian archaeologists consider to have played a role in Dacian ethnogenesis.

@Archetype the banned users of anthrogenica and Riverman are upvoting each other. It's ok and it doesn't really matter. All of their theories have crumbled and now they're just grasping at straws here. It's really pointless for them.

PS

"Paleo-Revenge" your actual agenda has not been forgotten

 

[Hawk]

Let me re-quote this part because Gabor Vekony is one of the best archaeologists regarding Carpathian Basin and Thracian issue.

By the end of the Late Bronze Age, the people of the Gáva culture, who buried cremated remains in urns, and related groups had expanded their domain. Their settlements and burial places are found not only in Transylvania, but also in the Banat, in areas east of the Tisza, and, east of the Carpathians, in Galicia and Bessarabia (Holihrad and Kisinyov cultures). Some of their groups travelled across the wooded steppes as far as the Dnieper River. Judging from the material evidence, peoples who lived at this time south of {1-36.} the Carpathians, in Wallachia and northern Bulgaria, spoke a language related to that of the Gáva culture (Babadag and Pšeničevo cultures). This region is roughly contiguous with the subsequent settlement areas of the Dacians, Gaetians, and Mysians.

https://mek.oszk.hu/03400/03407/html/9.html

Psenicevo pit burials, also known as Thracian pits from Early Iron Age were exclusively E-V13. That's the earliest we know about the progenitors of historical Thracians for sure, because subsequently E-V13 appears during classical and Early Middle Ages, and also considering the percentage and diversity in modern times, a no-brainer. How ridiculous it sounds, one of the toughest ancient population on the earth to be completely replaced by some foreign input lol. If they were replaced then they were simply not ancestors of Thracians or Proto-Thracian, simple as it is.

Also, Maros is insignificant Bronze Age Culture on the Carpathian Basin, especially when you compare it with Gava, Verbicoara, Vatin, Dubovac-Zuto Brdo/Grla-Mara, Ottomany, Coslogeni. Atleast i am not aware of Mares being considered as ancestral to any subsequent Late Bronze Age/Early Iron Age sites. If you know any paper cite it. It's funny how you saw a bulk of E-V13 in an Early Iron Age site and you never even pay attention to it's cultural affiliations. It's South-East Bulgaria, almost on the border with Anatolia. There was no Illyrian/West-Balkan cultural material over there.

At this stage, at this point we can say with confidence E-V13 spread with the so called Balkan-Carpathian or Eastern Urnfielder Cultural Complex.

Take it as it is.

 

[PaleoRevenge]

I lack integrity cause I ask questions (you don't like the answers to)?

Meanwhile your 20 component overfit models with overlapping ancestry/shared drift, fairy tale fanfics are the gold standard of integrity?

I don't have to label anyone, there are professionals who study history that already did. We know who the Thracians are.

You claiming "the fit is only measurement that trumps everything" tells me all I need to know regarding your utter incompetence with even user friendly tools like G25.

I like cheese just not the Swiss cheese your models are, too many holes in them, trypophobia.
That more people upvote your garbage can only mean mental illness is on the rise.

I don't need, nor have a team, but I still dunk on randoms like you. Take care.

The only purpose of the calc function is to create a match, everything else is rotten cheese odor from your mouth.

Eventually the held up samples from the central and other parts of the eastern Balkans will be released, and you will end up in a stray jacket. I don't think you can "psychologically" handle it.