Ancient DNA, admx. history and endogamy in the prehistoricAegean Skourtaniotietal2022

[kingjohn]

Well, what do you know? J1-P58 made it from Southern Anatolia presumably into Crete by the Bronze Age. I did tell everyone we'd be bound to find it given the location not only of the early farmers, but the documented movement from Anatolia west during the Bronze Age. I always said there wasn't some Game of Thrones like WALL keeping all the J1 men out of Anatolia.

it for sure made it
the map where the cave site is
it is in modern day lasithi plateau

 

[Dorian9]

Amazing stuff!

 

[Kuivamaa]

Northern mainland Greece was historically less populated and most of Epirus by the Roman era became empty. So even if the northerns turn out to be different from southern Greeks I doubt it will change much.

Macedon spawned a global empire and Epirus mounted offensives against Rome itself, which means they had enough manpower and they also were initially both separate Provinces under Rome. Eventually Epirus was rolled into Achaea but Macedonia remained a province. That been said, Greeks from antiquity have always occupied an extended territory (from south Italy to east antolia and from Macedonia to Cyprus) which means they were never totally homogeneous genetically.

 

[ihype02]

Macedon spawned a global empire and Epirus mounted offensives against Rome itself, which means they had enough manpower and they also were initially both separate Provinces under Rome. Eventually Epirus was rolled into Achaea but Macedonia remained a province. That been said, Greeks from antiquity have always occupied an extended territory (from south Italy to east antolia and from Macedonia to Cyprus) which means they were never totally homogeneous genetically.

Southern Greece was technologically more advanced thus having a higher population and most city-states outside of Greece originated from the South.
Epirus was heavily emptied due to the Roman invasion.
So around 80% of Greek admixture in modern Greeks is bound to be Mycenaean-like, even if Northerns plot north of Thracians IMO.

 

[kingjohn]

for people interested to see and compare to the ancient y results from crete
here is
the frequency of some y haplogroups
in modern day crete
( i know the samples here were from east and central crete and not the west crete
so it doesn't cover chania region unfortunately )

source paper from back in the day :

https://www.nature.com/articles/5201769

 

[Carnimirie]

I recall very heated arguments being made of distances higher than 3, far too great, and that the "Eastern" ancestry had to come during Roman times, with these new samples the goal post has been moved once again. I'm intrigued at what the presenter on the youtube video meant when he implied Sardinians and Southern Italians colonized Crete.

 

[Dianatomia]

The starting point of this topic (the further away from the sea you go the higher the steppe admixture) was Dinatomia’s observation which raised my eyebrow because it is consistent with what happened during the arrival of Slavs in Greece. I am not sure if the feelings of rich farmers are relevant to this but plains and coastal areas have many advantages (access to food, trade, produce, milder climate for the most part) and one disadvantage (more vulnerable to sea raids). The scale is always in favor of the former. If you are a settler and don’t go there, there must be good reasons.
Slavs arrived in clans and avoided conflict with locals or the Roman military. By most accords it was a seemingly peaceful entry of people that were looking not for conquest or plunder but for a new home and picked remote and presumably mostly unclaimed areas.

The people higher in Steppe who entered Greece during the BA through the Balkan route settled in areas away from the sea, because that environment was familiar to them. They knew how to survive in that kind of habitat. They were Balkan folks who eventually descended from Eastern Europe. They likely had little knowledge of fishing, sailing, cultivating foods such as olives, make wine etc. They probably were nomands who owned lifestock and were looking for land to settle on. But as the centuries passed, they learned and intermixed with the maritime people who probably originally came from Anatolia.

As a comparison, think of the Turkic tribes who conquered parts of the Byzantine Empire and settled in central Anatolia. That's because that kind of enviroment was more similar to the one they were used to in Central Asia.

In comparison to the initial arrival of IE speakers in what is today Greece, the Slavic migration probably happened at a much faster pace. While it is unclear when exactly yamnaya reached the Proto-Greek area (Roughly Haliacmon probably), scholars put the linguistic osmosis between 2200-1900BCE which hints at 2300BCE as the earliest point yamnaya appeared. By 1600BCE we have archaeological proof that a cultural shift has happened throughout the Helladic mainland with Chamber tombs found all the way to the extreme southwest (Thouria in Messenia, full juxtaposition to the northeastern point of entry of yamnaya).It took a further century or two for Crete to follow suit. This new culture coincides with a new language and a new dna signal albeit a weak one further south. That being said it is clear these three conditions are directly linked with one another and is also clear the transition from pre-IE languages to Greek took several centuries.
We do not know how it exactly happened and how it was even possible for a minority to pull that off (the Slavs for example adopted the Greek language instead of spreading their own tongue). But we do know it was a slow process and we have initial data that points toward steppe signal getting weaker down south so this hypothesis isn’t just conjecture.

Ancient historians mentioned that during the Iron Age different languages were spoken in the island of Crete. This is perhaps the key in understanding why other languages did not survive. There was perhaps no dominant language prior to the arrival of the IE speakers. The Minoans lost power after the volcano eruption in Santorini and the proto-Greek speakers slowly spread throughout a region were more than one language was spoken. So the language which was spoken everywhere, alongside other languages, eventually dominated. Ofcourse, they intermixed linguistically and culturally. We shouldn't discard that 30-40% of the Ancient Greek vocabulary is pre-Greek. The amagalm of that process were to become the Mycenaeans. Further inland and further North however, more of this Balkan element remained.

When the Slavs settled in Greece, the Greek language was lingua franca. It had a very rich litterary tradition and it was the language of the New Testament and the Church. The Slavic minority in Greece was not capable of absorbing the Greek speakers. Further North however there were more Slavs. So the Greeks, or rather East Romans, were more focused in converting the newcomers to Christianity rather than to Hellenise them. So the East Romans took initiatives in creating an appropriate alphabet (Cyrilic) in order to spread the gospels in the Slavic languages.

 

[Kuivamaa]

When the Slavs settled in Greece, the Greek language was lingua franca. It had a very rich litterary tradition and it was the language of the modern testament and the Church. The Slavic minority in Greece was not capable of absorbing the Greek speakers. Further North however there were more Slavs. So the Greeks, or rather East Romans, were more focused in converting the newcomers to Christianity rather than to Hellenise them. So the East Romans took initiatives in creating an appropriate alphabet (Cyrilic) in order to spread the gospels in the Slavic languages.

Latin was also lingua franca of high prestige above the Jiricek line yet the Slavic descent wiped it out from huge parts of its Balkan territory, leaving behind only Romanian and niches of Aromanian, supposedly because this zone took the brunt of Slavic speakers. So you need more than prestige to keep your language. There is also a clear distinction between Slavic speakers inside the imperial borders and nascent slavic states outside of it. The empire absolutely tried to Hellenize/Romanize the settlers. Not in the nationalistic sense of 19th-20th century, it was an effort to actually incorporate those populations up in the mountains in everyday life, up until they became Christians they weren’t participating or mixing. Afterwards they were fully absorbed.
The Cyrillic script is a different story as it originated from the Glagolitic which was an attempt of Constantinople to Christianize the slavic state of Moravia in Central Europe. Eastern Rome was in geopolitical competition with Carolingians back then and the script was a tool, albeit one that didn’t work. However it was welcomed in the Bulgarian state and became the blueprint for Cyrillic. The point is that the whole process that gave rise to Cyrillic, happened outside the territory ERE controlled. Slavs within were being Hellenized.

I agree that pre-IE Greece was probably fragmented politically and linguistically which made the language shift easier, especially if the process was gradual.

 

[Kuivamaa]

Southern Greece was technologically more advanced thus having a higher population and most city-states outside of Greece originated from the South.
Epirus was heavily emptied due to the Roman invasion.
So around 80% of Greek admixture in modern Greeks is bound to be Mycenaean-like, even if Northerns plot north of Thracians IMO.

Macedon modified the Greek Phalanx and by late 4th century BC had a more technologically advanced war machine in general, involving ancient artillery. That being said you simply don’t get my point. Modern Greek populations are distinct from on another just like the ancients. You can tell a Cypriot a Griko and Epirotan apart easily. At no point in history did the Greek speakers have a single autosomal profile. Cypriots will have a significant Levantine element and Epirotans will have more steppe than Mycenaeans.

 

[blevins13]

Macedon modified the Greek Phalanx and by late 4th century BC had a more technologically advanced war machine in general, involving ancient artillery. That being said you simply don’t get my point. Modern Greek populations are distinct from on another just like the ancients. You can tell a Cypriot a Griko and Epirotan apart easily. At no point in history did the Greek speakers have a single autosomal profile. Cypriots will have a significant Levantine element and Epirotans will have more steppe than Mycenaeans.

The making of Greeks is like the making of British,different people came from different places at different times. But one question still remains not very clear, from where the proto - Greeks came from, what was their genetic composition. What was their path through the Balkans.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[bigsnake49]

Hahaha...I go away for couple of months and all hell breaks loose. This latest paper throws another money wrench to pretty much settled orthodoxy. It seems that the Greeks were not homogenous at all and it really matters where they settled. Mountain people different than the city folk and different than the seafaring people. There were probably 230 different Greek tribes like the ancient authors proposed. Hmmmm...Anatolians mixing with Greeks and Thracians and Cetina people. One big cauldron of a melting pot. I would love to see a lot of samples from Athens of the 5th and 4th centuries BC both from the elite but also from the poets, the sculptors, the painters and other specialized artisans. We know that there was a two way exchange between Athens and Anatolia particularly the Ionian Cities of Western Anatolia which themselves were already melting pots of Carians, Lydians, and Greeks. Can't wait!

 

[mount123]

Thus far, also for those who want to keep track of the nomenclatures:

Sample n (Y-DNA)	Site	Date	Y-DNA
J1a-P58 Sample (n=5)
ID HGC001	Hagios Charalambos cave, Crete	2300-1900 BC	J1a-P58 (xZ643,Y4067,ZS12454,Y205364)
ID HGC002	Hagios Charalambos cave, Crete		J1a-P58
ID HGC005	Hagios Charalambos cave, Crete		J1a-P58
ID HGC013	Hagios Charalambos cave, Crete		J1a-P58
ID HGC063	Hagios Charalambos cave, Crete		J1a-P58
J1b-ZS50 Sample (n=2)
ID LAZ017	Lazarides, Aegina		J1b-ZS50
ID NST012	Nea Styra, Euboea		J1b-ZS50>ZS5071
J2a1-M319 Sample (n=4)
ID HGC037	Hagios Charalambos cave, Crete	2400-1800 BC	J2a1-M319
ID HGC015	Hagios Charalambos cave, Crete	2400-1800 BC	J2a1-M319>Y151557
ID HGC018	Hagios Charalambos cave, Crete	2400-1800 BC	J2a1-M319>Y151557
ID HGC031	Hagios Charalambos cave, Crete	2400-1800 BC	J2a1-M319>Y151557
J2a1a1-Y6240 Sample (n=3)
ID HGC006	Hagios Charalambos cave, Crete		J2a1a1-Y6240>BY82631
ID HGC009	Hagios Charalambos cave, Crete		J2a1a1-Y6240>BY82631
ID HGC017	Hagios Charalambos cave, Crete		J2a1a1-Y6240>BY82631
J2a-Z7671 Sample (n=3)
ID APO025	Aposelemis, Crete		J2a-Z7671
ID XAN041	Chania, Crete		J2a-Z7671
ID TIR010	Tiryns, Argolis		J2a-Z7671
J2a-Y17002 Sample (n=1)
ID XAN031	Chania, Crete		J2a-Y17002
J2a1a2-Y13128 Sample (n=1)
ID XAN029	Chania, Crete		J2a1a2-Y13128>Z36829
J2a-PF5252 Sample (n=1)
ID GLI003	Glika Nera, Attica		J2a-PF5252*
J2a2-PF5008 Sample (n=3)
ID AID007	Aidonia, Corinthia		J2a2-PF5008>Y24510
ID AID008	Aidonia, Corinthia		J2a2-PF5008>Y24510
ID XAN024	Chania, Crete		J2a2-PF5008>MF10501*
G2a2a-PF3147 Sample (n=3)
ID LAZ018	Lazarides, Aegina		G2a2a-PF3147>FGC55322
ID XAN051	Chania, Crete		G2a2a-PF3147>L91>Y130324
ID MYG004	MBA/LBA Mygdalia, Achaia, Greece	1600-1450 BCE (~1525 BCE)	G2a2a-PF3147>L91>Y130324
G2a2b2-F872 Sample (n=1)
ID NST005	Nea Styra, Euboea		G2a2b2-F872>PF3378
C1a2-V20 Sample (n=2)
ID XAN035	Chania, Crete		C1a2-V20>V3918
ID AID002	Aidonia, Corinthia		C1a2-V20>F16270
E1b-CTS10912 Sample (n=1)
ID XAN016	Chania, Crete		E1b-CTS10912>BY6578
R1b-PF7562 Sample (n=1)
ID XAN030	Chania, Crete		R1b-PF7562
T1a3b2-Y11151 Sample (n=2)
ID HGC010	Hagios Charalambos cave, Crete		T1a3b2-Y11151>BY59831
ID HGC055	Hagios Charalambos cave, Crete		T1a3b2-Y11151>BY59831
J2b-L283 Sample (n=4)
ID MYG001	MBA/LBA Mygdalia, Achaia, Greece	1600-1450 BCE (~1525 BCE)	J2b-L283>Z615*
ID MYG008	MBA/LBA Mygdalia, Achaia, Greece	1600-1450 BCE (~1525 BCE)	J2b-L283>Z615*
ID MYG006	MBA/LBA Mygdalia, Achaia, Greece	1600-1450 BCE (~1525 BCE)	J2b-L283>Z615*
ID MYG005	MBA/LBA Mygdalia, Achaia, Greece	1600-1450 BCE (~1525 BCE)	J2b-L283>Z615*

 

[kingjohn]

Thus far, also for those who want to keep track of the nomenclatures:

Sample n (Y-DNA)	Site	Date	Y-DNA
J1a-P58 Sample (n=5)
ID HGC001	Hagios Charalambos cave, Crete	2300-1900 BC	J1a-P58 (xZ643,Y4067,ZS12454,Y205364)
ID HGC002	Hagios Charalambos cave, Crete		J1a-P58
ID HGC005	Hagios Charalambos cave, Crete		J1a-P58
ID HGC013	Hagios Charalambos cave, Crete		J1a-P58
ID HGC063	Hagios Charalambos cave, Crete		J1a-P58
J1b-ZS50 Sample (n=2)
ID LAZ017	Lazarides, Aegina		J1b-ZS50
ID NST012	Nea Styra, Euboea		J1b-ZS50>ZS5071
J2a1-M319 Sample (n=4)
ID HGC037	Hagios Charalambos cave, Crete	2400-1800 BC	J2a1-M319
ID HGC015	Hagios Charalambos cave, Crete	2400-1800 BC	J2a1-M319>Y151557
ID HGC018	Hagios Charalambos cave, Crete	2400-1800 BC	J2a1-M319>Y151557
ID HGC031	Hagios Charalambos cave, Crete	2400-1800 BC	J2a1-M319>Y151557
J2a1a1-Y6240 Sample (n=3)
ID HGC006	Hagios Charalambos cave, Crete		J2a1a1-Y6240>BY82631
ID HGC009	Hagios Charalambos cave, Crete		J2a1a1-Y6240>BY82631
ID HGC017	Hagios Charalambos cave, Crete		J2a1a1-Y6240>BY82631
J2a-Z7671 Sample (n=3)
ID APO025	Aposelemis, Crete		J2a-Z7671
ID XAN041	Chania, Crete		J2a-Z7671
ID TIR010	Tiryns, Argolis		J2a-Z7671
J2a-Y17002 Sample (n=1)
ID XAN031	Chania, Crete		J2a-Y17002
J2a1a2-Y13128 Sample (n=1)
ID XAN029	Chania, Crete		J2a1a2-Y13128>Z36829
J2a-PF5252 Sample (n=1)
ID GLI003	Glika Nera, Attica		J2a-PF5252*
J2a2-PF5008 Sample (n=3)
ID AID007	Aidonia, Corinthia		J2a2-PF5008>Y24510
ID AID008	Aidonia, Corinthia		J2a2-PF5008>Y24510
ID XAN024	Chania, Crete		J2a2-PF5008>MF10501*
G2a2a-PF3147 Sample (n=3)
ID LAZ018	Lazarides, Aegina		G2a2a-PF3147>FGC55322
ID XAN051	Chania, Crete		G2a2a-PF3147>L91>Y130324
ID MYG004	MBA/LBA Mygdalia, Achaia, Greece	1600-1450 BCE (~1525 BCE)	G2a2a-PF3147>L91>Y130324
G2a2b2-F872 Sample (n=1)
ID NST005	Nea Styra, Euboea		G2a2b2-F872>PF3378
C1a2-V20 Sample (n=2)
ID XAN035	Chania, Crete		C1a2-V20>V3918
ID AID002	Aidonia, Corinthia		C1a2-V20>F16270
E1b-CTS10912 Sample (n=1)
ID XAN016	Chania, Crete		E1b-CTS10912>BY6578
R1b-PF7562 Sample (n=1)
ID XAN030	Chania, Crete		R1b-PF7562
T1a3b2-Y11151 Sample (n=2)
ID HGC010	Hagios Charalambos cave, Crete		T1a3b2-Y11151>BY59831
ID HGC055	Hagios Charalambos cave, Crete		T1a3b2-Y11151>BY59831
J2b-L283 Sample (n=4)
ID MYG001	MBA/LBA Mygdalia, Achaia, Greece	1600-1450 BCE (~1525 BCE)	J2b-L283>Z615*
ID MYG008	MBA/LBA Mygdalia, Achaia, Greece	1600-1450 BCE (~1525 BCE)	J2b-L283>Z615*
ID MYG006	MBA/LBA Mygdalia, Achaia, Greece	1600-1450 BCE (~1525 BCE)	J2b-L283>Z615*
ID MYG005	MBA/LBA Mygdalia, Achaia, Greece	1600-1450 BCE (~1525 BCE)	J2b-L283>Z615*

great work
also this dude
GLI002- Glika Nera Attica - ( according to the ytree site he is E-S9621 an upstream branch to e-m84)
https://www.theytree.com/usersample/1e27887ee0abb47a9d5bcdaa9f987013.html

P.s
I don't know why pribislav don't analaysed it yet in anthrogenica
i know its not the best coverage but still it is in the same coverage as XAN016 e-L618 dude
anyway i am counting on theytree site
they proved to be good and i have all the calls of this individual they sent it to me so its real deal here
would be interesting to see his date probably iron age

 

[Omino]

Hahaha...I go away for couple of months and all hell breaks loose. This latest paper throws another money wrench to pretty much settled orthodoxy. It seems that the Greeks were not homogenous at all and it really matters where they settled. Mountain people different than the city folk and different than the seafaring people. There were probably 230 different Greek tribes like the ancient authors proposed. Hmmmm...Anatolians mixing with Greeks and Thracians and Cetina people. One big cauldron of a melting pot. I would love to see a lot of samples from Athens of the 5th and 4th centuries BC both from the elite but also from the poets, the sculptors, the painters and other specialized artisans. We know that there was a two way exchange between Athens and Anatolia particularly the Ionian Cities of Western Anatolia which themselves were already melting pots of Carians, Lydians, and Greeks. Can't wait!

Paper hasn't been published yet but somehow you have already made your conclusions about it.
-Different tribes doesn't mean that they're genetically distant.(Btw they're 4 main tribes)
-"We know that there was a two way exchange between Athens and Anatolia particularly the Ionian Cities of Western Anatolia which themselves were already melting pots of Carians, Lydians, and Greeks. Can't wait"
Anatolians were genetically homogeneous

 

[bigsnake49]

You shouldn't mix your wishful thinking with actual data.Paper hasn't been published yet but somehow you have already made your conclusions about it.
-Different tribes doesn't mean that they're genetically distant.(Btw they're 4 main tribes)
-"We know that there was a two way exchange between Athens and Anatolia particularly the Ionian Cities of Western Anatolia which themselves were already melting pots of Carians, Lydians, and Greeks. Can't wait"
Anatolians were genetically homogenous
Typical Balkan nationalist delusions

Anatolians were about as homogeneous as the Greeks. Anatolia besides the areas near the shore is very mountainous leading to genetic isolation and drift. Just like the mountainous Greek mainland. I am sure the people near the Black Sea are the same genetically as the Hittites the Lucian's, the Lydians and the Carians and the ancestors of the Kurds. Maybe the ancestors of the EEF migrating west and settling in the fertile valleys and flatlands near the sea might have been genetically similar, I am sure that the mountain folk might not have been.

While I was born in Western Thrace and my people came from Eastern Thrace and I appreciate Thracian music and customs, I am Greek through and through so whatever... I am not in the mood to cuss you out.

 

[Omino]

Anatolians were about as homogeneous as the Greeks. Anatolia besides the areas near the shore is very mountainous leading to genetic isolation and drift. Just like the mountainous Greek mainland. I am sure the people near the Black Sea are the same genetically as the Hittites the Lucian's, the Lydians and the Carians and the ancestors of the Kurds. Maybe the ancestors of the EEF migrating west and settling in the fertile valleys and flatlands near the sea might have been genetically similar, I am sure that the mountain folk might not have been.
While I was born in Western Thrace and my people came from Eastern Thrace and I appreciate Thracian music and customs, I am Greek through and through so whatever... I am not in the mood to cuss you out.

"Maybe the ancestors of the EEF migrating west and settling in the fertile valleys and flatlands near the sea might have been genetically similar, I am sure that the mountain folk might not have been."
We already know about Anatolia's homogeneity from previous papers.
My dear we're talking about actual scentific data from a paper,i don't care about your personal beliefs.

 

[ihype02]

The Anatolian admixture in Cretans seem to be very high if anything I expect Old Greeks to be naturally more shifted towards Anatolia than the current samples imply before the additional Anatolian admixture came by.

 

[ihype02]

Macedon modified the Greek Phalanx and by late 4th century BC had a more technologically advanced war machine in general, involving ancient artillery. That being said you simply don’t get my point. Modern Greek populations are distinct from on another just like the ancients. You can tell a Cypriot a Griko and Epirotan apart easily. At no point in history did the Greek speakers have a single autosomal profile. Cypriots will have a significant Levantine element and Epirotans will have more steppe than Mycenaeans.

I don't think ancients were that different. Unless they absorbed some native ancestry from and in the colonies they had. I believe Epirotans will be like BGR_IA which is pretty close with Mycenaeans. But if I am wrong I am wrong. I am not putting my money on that. Even though my opinion is no longer as strong as it used to be.

The more northern samples in here are either family of Mercenaries or low quality samples.

 

[bigsnake49]

"Maybe the ancestors of the EEF migrating west and settling in the fertile valleys and flatlands near the sea might have been genetically similar, I am sure that the mountain folk might not have been."
We already know about Anatolia's homogeneity from previous papers.
My dear we're talking about actual scentific data from a paper,i don't care about your personal beliefs.

Point me to the papers if you don't mind.

 

[bigsnake49]

The Anatolian admixture in Cretans seem to be very high if anything I expect Old Greeks to be naturally more shifted towards Anatolia than the current samples imply before the additional Anatolian admixture came by.

There was a substrate of people already in Greece before the Greeks migrated. If you want to call them Pelasgians or autochthonous or whatever name but the land was not empty of people. We do not have archaeological evidence of massive population replacement, at least not yet. According to Strabo quoting Ephorus here was a settlement of Thracians in Boetia that they kicked out and forced towards Parnassos. He also mention that Pelasgians were displaced towards Athens with a section in Athens called Pelasgiko. Did those displaced Thracians and Pelasgians stay isolated or did they admix with the Greeks around them? While we have no definitive evidence one ay or the other, logic dictates that they were assimilated and learned to speak Greek.

As always we need more samples and more archaeological digs. You cannot trip on a rock in Greece without it being part of an archaeological site. Thanks to all the American and European universities working on all the sites enriching our knowledge about the ancient world.