Comparing Ancient Greek populations to modern Greeks and Italians

[Jovialis]

Perhaps by 44 BC, Julius Caesar, and the rest of the patricians fell into the range of modern Italians. (C7 IA Latin/Etruscan +C6 Mediterranean sources).

 

[Angela]

I agree. As I've said on other threads, there are Italians who look like their near neighbors, i.e. like the Swiss, or French, or Spanish, and Italians who look Greek, but there are also Italians who look distinctly and only Italian, and this recreation is one of those examples.

 

[chrisrahi9]

Hey guys, I am part Pontic Greek and my hablogroup is E-V13 from my Pontic side. I recently used YSEQ to determine my specific subclade and the most specific one up to now that I got is E-Z17264. From the little info I found online it seems to belong to an ancient Thracian individual. Does anyone have more info about it? Are there known migrations from Thracia to the black sea coast.
Also do we have any Ionic Greek samples yet?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Idontknowwhatimdoing]

I see Davidski is an author, if I'm not mistaken. Based on his attitude towards academic papers, why do this? What happed to all that bullshit he says about appealing to authority and other garbage?

Also one of the authors (Davidski) believes modern Greeks are Cypriots mixed with Slavs with little to no connections to the Ancient Greeks.

https://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2021/05/beware-of-greeks-bearing-gifts.html


I do not trust this guy to give a fair and accurate assessment, especially with assessments such as this.

Davidski said:


Genetics has shown that Modern Greeks do in fact descend from the ancients, it is not a coincidence. The only people that think otherwise are ab invisible minority on the internet.

Even laymen already think the ancients are related to the modern Greeks, so they know better than people who have their mind polluted with sophistry, on the internet.

Davidski did not explicitly claim that mainland Greeks have literal direct Greek Cypriot ancestry but he did suggest that before mixing with the Slavs they had a genetic profile similar to Greek Cypriots. Before the Slavic migrations, the mainland Greeks developed a genetic profile akin to that of Cypriots due to migrations from Anatolia and the Levant, like Greek Cypriots who are a mix of ancient Greek + South East Anatolia + Levant.

Even if his implication was that they possess literal Greek Cypriot ancestry, it raises the question: why would according to you (not Davidski) Greek Cypriot ancestry not be connected to ancient Greeks? Davidski has never made such a claim. Are Greek Cypriots not connected to ancient Greeks?

Matter of fact, Davidski thinks that a big chunk of the Cypriot like ancestry is literally from classical Greeks, so that would raise significantly the direct classical mainland Greek ancestry of modern Greeks while Cypriots would only plot coincidentally to them, because Cypriots might be Classical Cypriot (Mycenaean + South East Anatolia + Levant) + Armenian + Levant + Medieval Greek.

So modern Greeks might be:
Mycenaean + Anatolian/Levant = Classical Greek
Classical Greek + Anatolia/Levant = Hellenistic/Roman Greek (Cypriot like)
Hellenistic/Roman Greek (Cypriot like) + Medieval Slavs + Balkans = modern Southern Greeks

The Roman Southern Greeks might be perhaps the ones that completed the Cypriot like profile, unless they stayed the same since the Hellenistic.

But of course saying that all mainlanders had a Cypriot like profile before the Slavs is misleading, that would only be true for Southern Greeks while Northern Greeks would have clustered more with Calabrians. So northern Greeks are Calabrian like + Slav while Southern Greeks are Cypriot like + Slav.

You claimed that Davidski denied modern mainland Greek connection to ancient Greeks but he literally said this:

Mycenaeans + Anatolian/Levant migrants + Medieval Slavs = modern Greeks

Greeks do have Cypriot-like ancestry, it's just that it's not necessarily from Cyprus.

This is obvious by looking at modern Greek DNA vs Mycenaean DNA.

But it'll also be shown with new samples from Classical Greece, some of which actually cluster with Cypriots and Anatolians.

https://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2021/05/beware-of-greeks-bearing-gifts.html

 

[Francesco]

So modern Greeks might be:
Mycenaean + Anatolian/Levant = Classical Greek
Classical Greek + Anatolia/Levant = Hellenistic/Roman Greek (Cypriot like)
Hellenistic/Roman Greek (Cypriot like) + Medieval Slavs + Balkans = modern Southern Greeks

I somewhat share a similar opinion. I think Iron age Greeks will be a bit similar to their hellenistic descendants, harboring additional Anatolia_BA (and maybe even Balkan_BA) admixture. The question is: how much they will be similar, but for that we just have to wait samples to be published.

The only thing on which I kind of disagree is in hellenistic greek being Cypriots-like, since I think it might be safer to assume they were Cretan/cycladic like (basically deep maniotes without additional slavic input). But we are probably talking of details, here, and again, more samples will show us a clearer picture.

Sorry for having gone off topic, feel free to delete this post

 

[Idontknowwhatimdoing]

I somewhat share a similar opinion. I think Iron age Greeks will be a bit similar to their hellenistic descendants, harboring additional Anatolia_BA (and maybe even Balkan_BA) admixture. The question is: how much they will be similar, but for that we just have to wait samples to be published.
The only thing I kind of disagree with is hellenistic Greeks being Cypriots-like, since I think it might be safer to assume they were Cretan/cycladic like (basically deep maniotes without additional slavic input). But we are probably talking of details, here, and again, more samples will show us a clearer picture.

Anatolia was already mixed by the iron age with Balkan + Mycenaean + East/South Anatolia. Especially on the coast, West Anatolia. The Anatolia BA models must stop for that reason, they are unrealistic. The Roman era West Anatolians seem to be Mycenaean + Bronze age West Anatolia + South/East Anatolia + Levant.

It does sound weird for mainland Greeks to be also exactly the same as west Anatolians, so you are right, mainland Southern Greeks might were Cycladic like in the Hellenistic. The Marathon 300 AD sample seems to be a tiny bit more Cycladic like than Cypriot like, but its still about as close to Cypriots, so its indeed both Cypriot and Cycladic like.


People here are denying hard any iron age and Hellenistic/Roman Levantine admix in Italy/Greece for some reason.

 

[Jovialis]

Anatolia was already mixed by the iron age with Balkan + Mycenaean + East/South Anatolia. Especially on the coast, West Anatolia. The Anatolia BA models must stop for that reason, they are unrealistic. The Roman era West Anatolians seem to be Mycenaean + Bronze age West Anatolia + South/East Anatolia + Levant.

It does sound weird for mainland Greeks to be also exactly the same as west Anatolians, so you are right, mainland Southern Greeks might were Cycladic like in the Hellenistic. The Marathon 300 AD sample seems to be a tiny bit more Cycladic like than Cypriot like, but its still about as close to Cypriots, so its indeed both Cypriot and Cycladic like.
View attachment 13927

People here are denying hard any iron age and Hellenistic/Roman Levantine admix in Italy/Greece for some reason.

If you are going to start with this attitude, you're going right back to ban. No one is denying anything, and we already addressed your theory in the other thread which you are entitled to believe. Don't pollute this one too with hostility, or right back to ban you will go.

 

[Jovialis]

Davidski did not explicitly claim that mainland Greeks have literal direct Greek Cypriot ancestry but he did suggest that before mixing with the Slavs they had a genetic profile similar to Greek Cypriots. Before the Slavic migrations, the mainland Greeks developed a genetic profile akin to that of Cypriots due to migrations from Anatolia and the Levant, like Greek Cypriots who are a mix of ancient Greek + South East Anatolia + Levant.

Even if his implication was that they possess literal Greek Cypriot ancestry, it raises the question: why would according to you (not Davidski) Greek Cypriot ancestry not be connected to ancient Greeks? Davidski has never made such a claim. Are Greek Cypriots not connected to ancient Greeks?

Matter of fact, Davidski thinks that a big chunk of the Cypriot like ancestry is literally from classical Greeks, so that would raise significantly the direct classical mainland Greek ancestry of modern Greeks while Cypriots would only plot coincidentally to them, because Cypriots might be Classical Cypriot (Mycenaean + South East Anatolia + Levant) + Armenian + Levant + Medieval Greek.

So modern Greeks might be:
Mycenaean + Anatolian/Levant = Classical Greek
Classical Greek + Anatolia/Levant = Hellenistic/Roman Greek (Cypriot like)
Hellenistic/Roman Greek (Cypriot like) + Medieval Slavs + Balkans = modern Southern Greeks

The Roman Southern Greeks might be perhaps the ones that completed the Cypriot like profile, unless they stayed the same since the Hellenistic.

But of course saying that all mainlanders had a Cypriot like profile before the Slavs is misleading, that would only be true for Southern Greeks while Northern Greeks would have clustered more with Calabrians. So northern Greeks are Calabrian like + Slav while Southern Greeks are Cypriot like + Slav.

You claimed that Davidski denied modern mainland Greek connection to ancient Greeks but he literally said this:

https://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2021/05/beware-of-greeks-bearing-gifts.html

That's the post I cited too. Have you even bothered to read it?; Davidski said:


To me this suggests that most present-day Greeks harbor significant levels of Slavic ancestry and some sort of recent Cypriot-related ancestry, and in large part they're only coincidentally similar to ancient Aegeans, including those from the MBA (labeled Greece_Helladic_MBA in my graphs).

This doesn't inspire confidence about your modeling ability.

 

[Jovialis]

How the hell do you shoehorn your theory on to "some sort of recent Cypriot". What you're suggesting is very specific. It doesn't really matter, because all of the real intellectuals on the topic believe the Ancients are connected to the modern Greeks. The only emphasis on augmention I've seen was regarding Slavic. I think you and people like you like to apply overblown pet theories that have no legitimate basis tbh.

 

[Archetype0ne]

So modern Greeks might be:
Mycenaean + Anatolian/Levant = Classical Greek
Classical Greek + Anatolia/Levant = Hellenistic/Roman Greek (Cypriot like)
Hellenistic/Roman Greek (Cypriot like) + Medieval Slavs + Balkans = modern Southern Greeks

The Roman Southern Greeks might be perhaps the ones that completed the Cypriot like profile, unless they stayed the same since the Hellenistic.

But of course saying that all mainlanders had a Cypriot like profile before the Slavs is misleading, that would only be true for Southern Greeks while Northern Greeks would have clustered more with Calabrians. So northern Greeks are Calabrian like + Slav while Southern Greeks are Cypriot like + Slav.

You claimed that Davidski denied modern mainland Greek connection to ancient Greeks but he literally said this:

https://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2021/05/beware-of-greeks-bearing-gifts.html

So if I understood correctly, the "Cypriot like" is in terms of PCA position? Does not sound far fetched to me.
For North Greeks we will need samples though, as many scenarios could have taken place. Biggest question is what post Myceneans looked liked, namely mainland ancient Greeks. I suspect they had an additional steppe related admixture from the north, brining them closer to Log02. But if that was not the case and rather the Anatolian admixture had a higher impact, then the amount of high steppe admixture that would be needed in later periods to account for modern Greeks would be stark (especially considering documented population exchanges). Again, I think samples will clarify what's what.

 

[Jovialis]

Davidski did not explicitly claim that mainland Greeks have literal direct Greek Cypriot ancestry but he did suggest that before mixing with the Slavs they had a genetic profile similar to Greek Cypriots. Before the Slavic migrations, the mainland Greeks developed a genetic profile akin to that of Cypriots due to migrations from Anatolia and the Levant, like Greek Cypriots who are a mix of ancient Greek + South East Anatolia + Levant.
Even if his implication was that they possess literal Greek Cypriot ancestry, it raises the question: why would according to you (not Davidski) Greek Cypriot ancestry not be connected to ancient Greeks? Davidski has never made such a claim. Are Greek Cypriots not connected to ancient Greeks?
Matter of fact, Davidski thinks that a big chunk of the Cypriot like ancestry is literally from classical Greeks, so that would raise significantly the direct classical mainland Greek ancestry of modern Greeks while Cypriots would only plot coincidentally to them, because Cypriots might be Classical Cypriot (Mycenaean + South East Anatolia + Levant) + Armenian + Levant + Medieval Greek.
So modern Greeks might be:
Mycenaean + Anatolian/Levant = Classical Greek
Classical Greek + Anatolia/Levant = Hellenistic/Roman Greek (Cypriot like)
Hellenistic/Roman Greek (Cypriot like) + Medieval Slavs + Balkans = modern Southern Greeks
The Roman Southern Greeks might be perhaps the ones that completed the Cypriot like profile, unless they stayed the same since the Hellenistic.
But of course saying that all mainlanders had a Cypriot like profile before the Slavs is misleading, that would only be true for Southern Greeks while Northern Greeks would have clustered more with Calabrians. So northern Greeks are Calabrian like + Slav while Southern Greeks are Cypriot like + Slav.
You claimed that Davidski denied modern mainland Greek connection to ancient Greeks but he literally said this:
https://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2021/05/beware-of-greeks-bearing-gifts.html

I haven't modeled Cypriots specifically. But from what I gathered based on modern Aegean Islanders is that they can be modeled with Anatolia_BA almost monolithicly. Which implies that there's more CHG and Levant than simply using minoan or Neolithic Aegeans for modeling. So yes they are related to the Ancient Greeks too. But people from Greece and Southern Italy, specifically Apulians and Eastern Peloponnese can be modeled mostly with Neolithic Aegeans. That's what makes the difference in affinity to the Ancient people.

^^The model breaks down when you try to use it for the modern middle east. You specifically need to use Sidon_BA for modern Middle Easterners, from my recollection.

I shared this in another thread, Razib Khan comments one both the points I made, regarding the continuity of Greeks, and the modeling of modern Middle easterners.

Great comments on sub-normal fertility of slaves as well.

Btw, I doubt they're trying desperately to hide the impact of Levantine slaves. This is a conversation between a black Puerto Rican and an Bengal.

Believe it or not, even people who are not Greek or Italian think so.

 

[D.L.M]

The Marathon sample is low quality and the Mycenaean profile was probably, largely, preserved in Classical Period too, expect for some outliers and Anatolian Greeks proper of course (like in Ionia).

 

[Francesco]

Biggest question is what post Myceneans looked liked, namely mainland ancient Greeks. I suspect they had an additional steppe related admixture from the north, brining them closer to Log02. But if that was not the case and rather the Anatolian admixture had a higher impact, then the amount of high steppe admixture that would be needed in later periods to account for modern Greeks would be stark (especially considering documented population exchanges). Again, I think samples will clarify what's what.

My bet is that we will see both those scenarios you mentioned (anatolian and Balkan input, nothing dramatic but detectable) in archaic and classical age. But it's just an educated guest and I may be wrong.

Maybe we should talk about it in this thread rather than in this one, even if the Iron Age Aegean could be of some interest even for the Albanian and Balkan context. https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threa...-(Mesolithic-to-Medieval)-from-Biomuse/page10

 

[Archetype0ne]

My bet is that we will see both those scenarios you mentioned (anatolian and Balkan input, nothing dramatic but detectable) in archaic and classical age. But it's just an educated guest and I may be wrong.

Maybe we should talk about it in this thread rather than in this one, even if the Iron Age Aegean could be of some interest even for the Albanian and Balkan context. https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threa...-(Mesolithic-to-Medieval)-from-Biomuse/page10

I agree. The thread went of topic for a while. Looking forward to the upcoming paper.

 

[Jovialis]

I haven't modeled Cypriots specifically. But from what I gathered based on modern Aegean Islanders is that they can be modeled with Anatolia_BA almost monolithicly. Which implies that there's more CHG and Levant than simply using minoan or Neolithic Aegeans for modeling. So yes they are related to the Ancient Greeks too. But people from Greece and Southern Italy, specifically Apulians and Eastern Peloponnese can be modeled mostly with Neolithic Aegeans. That's what makes the difference in affinity to the Ancient people.

^^The model breaks down when you try to use it for the modern middle east. You specifically need to use Sidon_BA for modern Middle Easterners, from my recollection.

I shared this in another thread, Razib Khan comments one both the points I made, regarding the continuity of Greeks, and the modeling of modern Middle easterners.

Great comments on sub-normal fertility of slaves as well.

Btw, I doubt they're trying desperately to hide the impact of Levantine slaves. This is a conversation between a black Puerto Rican and an Bengal.

Believe it or not, even people who are not Greek or Italian think so.

 

[mount123]

Even though an off topic discussion it just shows again how immensely important uniparental data is in attesting or refuting certain proposals.

We are at a point in time where we can observe certain demographic patterns in Europe troughout different time spans for example one can exclude certain lineages to have had a pre-Imperial Roman era presence. This can as said be applied to other time spans too, obviously.

 

[Southpaw]

Hey guys, I am part Pontic Greek and my hablogroup is E-V13 from my Pontic side. I recently used YSEQ to determine my specific subclade and the most specific one up to now that I got is E-Z17264. From the little info I found online it seems to belong to an ancient Thracian individual. Does anyone have more info about it? Are there known migrations from Thracia to the black sea coast.
Also do we have any Ionic Greek samples yet?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Possibly Thracian, yes. Or during Byzantine times. Could work both, but during Byzantine times sounds more plausible to me.

On yfull on this subclade i see another Greek: https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Z17264/

 

[Jovialis]

Adding Corded Ware as a proxy for Slavic-input greatly improves the fit of many modern Greeks:

I haven't modeled Cypriots specifically. But from what I gathered based on modern Aegean Islanders is that they can be modeled with Anatolia_BA almost monolithicly. Which implies that there's more CHG and Levant than simply using minoan or Neolithic Aegeans for modeling. So yes they are related to the Ancient Greeks too. But people from Greece and Southern Italy, specifically Apulians and Eastern Peloponnese can be modeled mostly with Neolithic Aegeans. That's what makes the difference in affinity to the Ancient people.

It is no wonder that Cyprus is poorly modeled, with this set, yet every single southern Italian, and Greek from north to south, and islands, are modeled well. Cyprus falls outside of the continuum of those ancient contemporaneous samples, even beyond that of Isparta_BA. The reason is they need something else, clearly more Levant_BA related.

 

[Jovialis]

Here's a graphic based on the results using another model:

 

[Dianatomia]

For a better understanding of Logkas 2 and 4 I added Northern and Central Italian coordinates.

[TABLE="class: distances"]
[TR]
[TH="align: right"]Distance to:[/TH]
[TH="align: left"]GRC_Logkas_MBA:Log02[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #01FF00, align: right"]0.02368158[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Tuscany[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #01FF00, align: right"]0.02431119[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Thessaly[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #01FF00, align: right"]0.02540433[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Lombardy[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #01FF00, align: right"]0.02632281[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Marche[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #01FF00, align: right"]0.02691930[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Emilia[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #01FF00, align: right"]0.02858172[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Umbria[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #01FF00, align: right"]0.02861037[/TD]
[TD]Albanian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #01FF00, align: right"]0.02884804[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Piedmont[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #01FF00, align: right"]0.02912989[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Messenia[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #01FF00, align: right"]0.02922166[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Liguria[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #01FF00, align: right"]0.02997666[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Arcadia[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #01FF00, align: right"]0.03013658[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Argolis[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #01FF00, align: right"]0.03049210[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Achaea[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #01FF00, align: right"]0.03135567[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Macedonia[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #01FF00, align: right"]0.03143920[/TD]
[TD]Greek_East_Taygetos[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #01FF00, align: right"]0.03167704[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Corinthia[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #01FF00, align: right"]0.03178996[/TD]
[TD]Greek_West_Taygetos[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #01FF00, align: right"]0.03186725[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Elis[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #01FF00, align: right"]0.03193732[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Central_Macedonia[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #01FF00, align: right"]0.03201528[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Peloponnese[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #01FF00, align: right"]0.03207900[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Laconia[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #01FF00, align: right"]0.03208233[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Bergamo[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #01FF00, align: right"]0.03248308[/TD]
[TD]Angela[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #01FF00, align: right"]0.03417274[/TD]
[TD]Greek_North_Tsakonia[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #01FF00, align: right"]0.03444402[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Molise[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #01FF00, align: right"]0.03696799[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Veneto[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #01FF00, align: right"]0.03697060[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Apulia[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #01FF00, align: right"]0.03846480[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #01FF00, align: right"]0.03922182[/TD]
[TD]Greek_South_Tsakonia[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #01FF00, align: right"]0.03990854[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Izmir[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

[TABLE="class: distances"]
[TR]
[TH="align: right"]Distance to:[/TH]
[TH="align: left"]RC_Logkas_MBA:Log04[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #01FF00, align: right"]0.03417883[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Thessaly[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #01FF00, align: right"]0.03682935[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Macedonia[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #01FF00, align: right"]0.03721551[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Emilia[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #01FF00, align: right"]0.03808333[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Northeast[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #01FF00, align: right"]0.03809233[/TD]
[TD]Albanian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #01FF00, align: right"]0.03859053[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Central_Macedonia[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #01FF00, align: right"]0.03866564[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Piedmont[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #01FF00, align: right"]0.04077091[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Friuli_Venezia_Giulia_Sappada[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #01FF00, align: right"]0.04079064[/TD]
[TD]Romanian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #01FF00, align: right"]0.04091185[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Veneto[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #01FF00, align: right"]0.04104217[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Tuscany[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #01FF00, align: right"]0.04148815[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Lombardy[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #01FF00, align: right"]0.04169561[/TD]
[TD]Greek_East_Macedonia_and_Thrace[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #01FF00, align: right"]0.04180854[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Bergamo[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #01FF00, align: right"]0.04200219[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #01FF00, align: right"]0.04241700[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Messenia[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #01FF00, align: right"]0.04253053[/TD]
[TD]Greek_West_Taygetos[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #01FF00, align: right"]0.04268138[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Liguria[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #02FF00, align: right"]0.04434856[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Argolis[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #02FF00, align: right"]0.04464512[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Arcadia[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #02FF00, align: right"]0.04510095[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Achaea[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #02FF00, align: right"]0.04549666[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Elis[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #02FF00, align: right"]0.04598625[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Corinthia[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #02FF00, align: right"]0.04732186[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Peloponnese[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #02FF00, align: right"]0.04748835[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Marche[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #02FF00, align: right"]0.04771796[/TD]
[TD]Greek_East_Taygetos[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #02FF00, align: right"]0.04777273[/TD]
[TD]Angela[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #02FF00, align: right"]0.04779804[/TD]
[TD]Serbian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #02FF00, align: right"]0.04851138[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Laconia[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #02FF00, align: right"]0.04897483[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Umbria[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

Should we discard that an ancient person from Thessaly is similar to a modern person from that same region? Just because the specimens pre-date Mycenaeans? Or should we head towards the direction that Ancient Greeks were made of Mycenaeans, Logkas type people and later on Western Anatolians?
Where the Logkas type people mostly settled in the interior parts of the mainland? Was South Italy mostly colonized by coastal (Mycenaean) Greeks, rather than Logkas type Greeks?

Is the Bronze Age collapse related to people from the interior of Greece/Balkans taking over coastal regions, adding new people to their ranks, then pillaging other parts of the world?