Comparing Ancient Greek populations to modern Greeks and Italians

[Southpaw]

Also, E-V13 in Balkan Slavs seems to have been a resurgence and integration of Proto-Vlach and Proto-Albanian highland populations than a continuum or integration of V13 in early Slavs. Not in all cases, but i would say approaching atleast ~50% (could be wrong here, educated guess).

 

[Francesco]

Ancient Greeks, Italians, and Albanians along with modern versions.

Never noticed how the hellenistic sample from empuries was plotting along the early Iron age sample from Palace of Nestor. To which century is it dated?

 

[mount123]

@eupator

I also perceived your post as a more general remark. I am one of the upvoters of your initial post (I hope the Anti-Greek thing isn't addressed at me as I have no horse in this race). If anything a discussion on DNA benifits from plurality. Especially when legitimate issues are being raised.

Anyways, I agree and I think it is more about semantics meaning that it is different claiming a certain population is identical to the Bronze Age population of the same region and claiming there is genetic continuity.

Lazaridis and co. acknowledge Slavic admixture in Greeks which is indeed also noticeable in uniparentals (I2a-Y3120 and R1a-M417+). He also mentions in the Southern Arc paper a discrepancy when it comes to ancient vs. modern distribution of E-V13.

Modern Greeks, Albanians etc. as other peoples are the result of demographic changes/developments throughout different time spans in prehistory. And there has happened a whole lot in the Balkan peninsula since the Bronze Age.

 

[mount123]

It's a shame that the albanian government prevents their testing ,these J1bs are obsessed with proving that we albanians are dacians but they can't hide the truth from us Pelazgi-Ilir-Aftoktonus Pil=Goat Eus=Sun =Bright goat hat

J1b? There are three ancient Greek J1b-ZS50 samples and in a more recent paper it has been found in a late Neolithic context in Gumelnița, Romania. Albanians don't carry any J1b-ZS50 and J1-M267 in general is rather irrelevant to Albanians whose most common Paleo-Balkan lineages are mainly E1b-V13, R1b-Z2103, R1b-PF7562>PF7563, J2b-L283.

PS: I know that your comment is a troll comment. I assume with the J1 alteration you are trying to make a "funny" comment a la 2011 claiming Middleeastern origins for Albanians. Perhaps try to add something more useful to the topic next time.

 

[epirus1000]

It's a shame that the albanian government prevents their testing ,these J1bs are obsessed with proving that we albanians are dacians but they can't hide the truth from us Pelazgi-Ilir-Aftoktonus Pil=Goat Eus=Sun =Bright goat hat

You can put hundreds of variations of the word Pileus, but you can't nullify the fact that in each of our weddings from Konispol to Ulqin, and to Bujanovc in Serbia, we use our Plis-es/Qeleshe-s. We have more than 10 types of Plis-es.
You can't have this ethnographic treasury. What people bring to their weddings is very important.
And there is no sun or goat in the word.
Check our minister of defense surname, PELESHI, there you have still the survival of the word (Pe leshi, meaning "made of wool"). There is no goat involved, just wool of sheep.

 

[Jovialis]

Hagios Charalambos EMBA are Lasithi-like Minoan-like samples, it is also a Minoan burial cave.

 

[Jovialis]

@eupator

I also perceived your post as a more general remark. I am one of the upvoters of your initial post (I hope the Anti-Greek thing isn't addressed at me as I have no horse in this race). If anything a discussion on DNA benifits from plurality. Especially when legitimate issues are being raised.

Anyways, I agree and I think it is more about semantics meaning that it is different claiming a certain population is identical to the Bronze Age population of the same region and claiming there is genetic continuity.

Lazaridis and co. acknowledge Slavic admixture in Greeks which is indeed also noticeable in uniparentals (I2a-Y3120 and R1a-M417+). He also mentions in the Southern Arc paper a discrepancy when it comes to ancient vs. modern distribution of E-V13.

Modern Greeks, Albanians etc. as other peoples are the result of demographic changes/developments throughout different time spans in prehistory. And there has happened a whole lot in the Balkan peninsula since the Bronze Age.

No not you particularly, I don't know what your sentiments is on Greeks. But what I think is important for discussion is not brow beat people into dismissing genetic continuity especially when there's legitimate reason to believe there is. The fact that academic papers are also consistent with that sentiment, further makes the accusation of "sick in the head" complete and utter bullshit. it is not tin foil hat conspiracy; Harvard is saying it.




People who want to misrepresent that fact are going to be critiqued, and if they are going to insist and throw accusations, I will put an end to that.




I really don't care if people think there was wholesale replacement. What I care about is stopping brow beating, especially when it is a minority-fringe theory emerging from anonymous inconsequential laymen, rather than academia.

 

[Jovialis]

No one is claiming they are identical; I have stated already many times there's been augmentation from Slavic and Anatolian sources; it is visually represented. Genetic continuity doesn't mean identical; it means mostly similar.


"Modern Greeks, Albanians etc. as other peoples are the result of demographic changes/developments throughout different time spans in prehistory. And there has happened a whole lot in the Balkan peninsula since the Bronze Age."




Right, but we have measured the extent of that. Now we can say there's been a lot of continuity with some augmentation from Slavic and Anatolian sources.

 

[Jovialis]

Never noticed how the hellenistic sample from empuries was plotting along the early Iron age sample from Palace of Nestor. To which century is it dated?

I don't recall, but I think Empuries was from the IA found in Iberia.

These IA Greeks, Palace of Nestor and Empuries, likely come from Aegean_EBA stock like Cyclades EBA, Hagio Charalambos, Zakros, etc, in a two-way with Catacomb/Yamnaya.

 

[D.L.M]

I would take with grain of salt the posts of ihype considering he seems to have a bias toward E-V13 Albanians.

Thing is, from what i can tell E-V13 in Peloponessus seems to be bigger than Bulgarians, and subclades tend to lean moreso toward S2979 than Z5017 in Bulgarians. Thessaloniki and surrounding have far more Slavic admixture yet far less V13 than Southern Greece.

So, if anything i am leaning toward Byzantine populations of Thracian origin which were Grecophone. But, Northern Greeks of antuiquty like Ancient Macedonians should harbour E-V13 as well, it's interesting how some Uzbeks from around Bukhara are popping out as E-V13. Seleucid branch kingdoms were there, if not for Thracian mercenaries i bet on Seleucids. So, let's wait for more results.

I was only talking about Peloponnese. I do not think E-V13 in Albanians is Slavic. I think E-V13 carriers were proto-Albanian speakers as Illyrians were latinized.

I did mention the diversity of Slavs. For example Greek Macedonia has more R1a and I2a than E-V13. So 'our' Slavs could've been more I2a and R1a for instance. Simply look at Goths in Italy versus Spain.

Also let me rephrase that I believe that Slavs picked this line in Balkans before reaching Peloponnese.

 

[Francesco]

I don't recall, but I think Empuries was from the IA found in Iberia.

I rapidly skimmed through the supplementary material from oldade et al. They have four Greek samples, one from the V century BC, two from the hellenistic era, and one from the imperial era. Ironically, the most shifted towards the contemporary east med continuum is the one from V century BC, at least judging by the PCA of the paper itself. I don't know wich one of these four samples is the one represented on your PCA. It's labeled as hellenistic, so I assume it's one of the two hellenistic individuals.

These IA Greeks, Palace of Nestor and Empuries, likely come from Aegean_EBA stock like Cyclades EBA, Hagio Charalambos, Zakros, etc, in a two-way with Catacomb/Yamnaya.

That would make sense. Another explanation could be that they come from a mycenean bronze age like stock and intermixed with west anatolians and logkas-like individuals before or after the bronze age collapse.

 

[eupator]

@eupator

I also perceived your post as a more general remark. I am one of the upvoters of your initial post (I hope the Anti-Greek thing isn't addressed at me as I have no horse in this race). If anything a discussion on DNA benifits from plurality. Especially when legitimate issues are being raised.

Thanks, man. I am also a firm believer that only the truth can set us free.

There is no denying the uniparentals argument which is solid proof of what I am saying.

Also, the modern Greek samples are not even that much closer than anyone else in the Reich dataset when running FST on qpAdm.

The 'great similarity and continuity' based on PCA projection is grossly exaggerated, there is a trap of illusion as to how close or far away these samples are on such vahaduo type projections.

fst(prefix, pop1 = "Greece_BA_Mycenaean", pop2 = c("Turkish", "Georgian", "Armenian_Hemsheni", "Armenian", "Azeri", "Cypriot", "Bulgarian", "Greek", "Albanian", "Italian_South", "Libyan", "Norwegian", "English", "Papuan", "Yoruba", "Jew_Moroccan", "Jew_Ashkenazi"))
ℹ Reading allele frequencies from packedancestrymap files...
ℹ Reich_v54.1_HO.geno has 14317 samples and 597573 SNPs
ℹ Calculating allele frequencies from 210 samples in 18 populations
ℹ Expected size of allele frequency data: 153 MB
597k SNPs read...
✔ 597573 SNPs read in total
! 358561 SNPs remain after filtering. 322774 are polymorphic.
ℹ Allele frequency matrix for 358561 SNPs and 18 populations is 77 MB
ℹ Computing pairwise f2 for all SNPs and population pairs requires 2788 MB RAM without splitting
ℹ Computing without splitting since 2788 < 8000 (maxmem)...
ℹ Returning fst blocks
# A tibble: 17 × 4
   pop1                pop2                  est      se
   <chr>               <chr>               <dbl>   <dbl>
 1 Greece_BA_Mycenaean Albanian          0.00678 0.00140
 2 Greece_BA_Mycenaean Armenian          0.00811 0.00132
 3 Greece_BA_Mycenaean Armenian_Hemsheni 0.0118  0.00137
 4 Greece_BA_Mycenaean Azeri             0.0119  0.00123
 5 Greece_BA_Mycenaean Bulgarian         0.00778 0.00127
 6 Greece_BA_Mycenaean Cypriot           0.00757 0.00135
 7 Greece_BA_Mycenaean English           0.0134  0.00133
 8 Greece_BA_Mycenaean Georgian          0.0133  0.00127
 9 Greece_BA_Mycenaean Greek             0.00752 0.00145
10 Greece_BA_Mycenaean Italian_South     0.00710 0.00147
11 Greece_BA_Mycenaean Jew_Ashkenazi     0.0109  0.00139
12 Greece_BA_Mycenaean Jew_Moroccan      0.00960 0.00144
13 Greece_BA_Mycenaean Libyan            0.0184  0.00146
14 Greece_BA_Mycenaean Norwegian         0.0160  0.00136
15 Greece_BA_Mycenaean Papuan            0.195   0.00222
16 Greece_BA_Mycenaean Turkish           0.00862 0.00120
17 Greece_BA_Mycenaean Yoruba            0.149   0.00155

 

[Jovialis]

Thanks, man. I am also a firm believer that only the truth can set us free.
There is no denying the uniparentals argument which is solid proof of what I am saying.
Also, the modern Greek samples are not even that much closer than anyone else in the Reich dataset when running FST on qpAdm.
The 'great similarity and continuity' based on PCA projection is grossly exaggerated, there is a trap of illusion as to how close or far away these samples are on such vahaduo type projections.

fst(prefix, pop1 = "Greece_BA_Mycenaean", pop2 = c("Turkish", "Georgian", "Armenian_Hemsheni", "Armenian", "Azeri", "Cypriot", "Bulgarian", "Greek", "Albanian", "Italian_South", "Libyan", "Norwegian", "English", "Papuan", "Yoruba", "Jew_Moroccan", "Jew_Ashkenazi"))
ℹ Reading allele frequencies from packedancestrymap files...
ℹ Reich_v54.1_HO.geno has 14317 samples and 597573 SNPs
ℹ Calculating allele frequencies from 210 samples in 18 populations
ℹ Expected size of allele frequency data: 153 MB
597k SNPs read...
✔ 597573 SNPs read in total
! 358561 SNPs remain after filtering. 322774 are polymorphic.
ℹ Allele frequency matrix for 358561 SNPs and 18 populations is 77 MB
ℹ Computing pairwise f2 for all SNPs and population pairs requires 2788 MB RAM without splitting
ℹ Computing without splitting since 2788 < 8000 (maxmem)...
ℹ Returning fst blocks
# A tibble: 17 × 4
pop1                pop2                  est      se
<chr>               <chr>               <dbl>   <dbl>
1 Greece_BA_Mycenaean Albanian          0.00678 0.00140
2 Greece_BA_Mycenaean Armenian          0.00811 0.00132
3 Greece_BA_Mycenaean Armenian_Hemsheni 0.0118  0.00137
4 Greece_BA_Mycenaean Azeri             0.0119  0.00123
5 Greece_BA_Mycenaean Bulgarian         0.00778 0.00127
6 Greece_BA_Mycenaean Cypriot           0.00757 0.00135
7 Greece_BA_Mycenaean English           0.0134  0.00133
8 Greece_BA_Mycenaean Georgian          0.0133  0.00127
9 Greece_BA_Mycenaean Greek             0.00752 0.00145
10 Greece_BA_Mycenaean Italian_South     0.00710 0.00147
11 Greece_BA_Mycenaean Jew_Ashkenazi     0.0109  0.00139
12 Greece_BA_Mycenaean Jew_Moroccan      0.00960 0.00144
13 Greece_BA_Mycenaean Libyan            0.0184  0.00146
14 Greece_BA_Mycenaean Norwegian         0.0160  0.00136
15 Greece_BA_Mycenaean Papuan            0.195   0.00222
16 Greece_BA_Mycenaean Turkish           0.00862 0.00120
17 Greece_BA_Mycenaean Yoruba            0.149   0.00155

Not based on projections. Based on the analysis of actual professionals, unlike yourself. Maybe you're not as sophisticated as multiple geneticists using those same tools, as well as others not used by you, to see the nuances.

 

[Jovialis]

You're a coward too for passive aggressive posting. I call you out, and you try to deny it. Still you press the issue. You purport to use the academic authority of the Reich Lab, yet dismiss the conclusions they made of genetic continuity. Not all Greeks are the same, as the studies show southern Peloponnesens are indeed retainers of the achean genetic profile among others. I can see how Greco-anatolian and islanders need a different source, and the importance of Slavic to properly model others.

This is insane, you people just don't want to admit that some Greeks are closer to the Ancient people than others. So you have to shoehorn Anatolian from a different era to fit that theory. Fact, the Southern Peloponnese can indeed be modeled with ancient Greeks, they have a strong affinity to Neolithic Greece.

So how the hell is it possible they have affinity to Neolithic Greece if they were supposedly supplanted by IA Anatolia/Syrians? I have the answer, it doesn't make sense. It is horseshit.

 

[eupator]

You're a coward too for passive aggressive posting. I call you out, and you try to deny it. Still you press the issue. You purport to use the academic authority of the Reich Lab, yet dismiss the conclusions they made of genetic continuity. Not all Greeks are the same, as the studies show southern Peloponnesens are indeed retainers of the achean genetic profile among others. I can see how Greco-anatolian and islanders need a different source, and the importance of Slavic to properly model others.
This is insane, you people just don't want to admit that some Greeks are closer to the Ancient people than others. So you have to shoehorn Anatolian from a different era to fit that theory. Fact, the Southern Peloponnese can indeed be modeled with ancient Greeks, they have a strong affinity to Neolithic Greece.
So how the hell is it possible they have affinity to Neolithic Greece if they were supposedly supplanted by IA Anatolia/Syrians? I have the answer, it doesn't make sense. It is horseshit.

I am sorry, man, I think you have got the wrong end of the stick about me. I really don't get why you're so upset about my posts, I'd say that are pretty impartial and the only people targetted per se by my comments are various Greek ethno-fora posters, not you, not Italians, not Albanians and certainly not anyone else. Given that I am born and bred Greek from Greece and not the diaspora, tax-paying citizen and an accomplished military conscript of I1 classification (meaning that it's my ass in the front lines if the proverbial crap hits the fan) I think I have earned the right to comment on some of my country's shortcomings, no?

Furthermore, I am not emotionally vested in this discourse in the sense that I am not anxious to prove anything, I enter the data as an agnostic. I am a student of ethnography and history, I have a PH.D. (you can read my thesis online if you want, can PM details to w/e is interested), and I face the same establishment omerta that every ethnographer has faced when doing relevant research in Greece since the early 60s, albeit it's much easier now. With all due respect, you are an outsider in this conversation and you lack significant knowledge and life experience about the 'politics of history' in this country and what they permeate. Other Balkaners might be more apprehensive in the sense that they probably faced similar circumstances in their own countries, things that are completely foreign practices to academia in the West.

Thirdly, Moreans have input in varying degrees from Italics, Anatolians, North Africans, Albanophones and (more than anything else) Vlach/Bogdanians. It's written in historical accords and the uniparentals prove it. I am sorry but it's just how it is, no matter how much my posts are upsetting to some, they hold the truth and the matter of fact is that everything I post can be cross-referenced, I always provide sources and I have made several tutorials on various sites to teach people how to use software like qpAdm in order to cross-reference what I say, which I might add I am one of the very first people who have actually done so (streamline the process for the non-initiated).

Lastly, if I am allowed a personal comment towards you, since you are calling me a coward and all sorts, I don't think you should be so upset since this is a conversation that doesn't really concern you, per se, it's something between us Greeks so to speak. The fact that I make it public is that I believe in the advancement of truth, there is only one truth and it is what liberates people, the lies eventually get washed out by the tide of time. People are free to read my material and decide for themselves. Lazaridis can come out and give us that ancient Greek I2a-din parent clade, or that E-V13, and put an end to this discussion, but as long as uniparental testing and branching exists, his conclusions about 'continuities' are incomplete, in my opinion.

Don't shoot the messenger!

Peace!

 

[bigsnake49]

3 things:





No need to beat about the bush. Calculate the total %s of E-V13s and I2a-dins in the Greek FTDNA project, I dare you.


https://www.familytreedna.com/public/Greece?iframe=yresults




I am also leaning on this position, considering that in the medieval sources the Dacians and the Bulgarians are one body in the eye of the Byzantines.


Thirdly:

Lazaridis for all his scientific brilliance, has shown signs of emotional investment and compromise, so he's not immune to criticism.

More specifically, he systematically avoids discussing haplogroup representation in relation to current modern reality in Greece, I remember one particular really embarrassing tweet of his, not sure if he deleted it or still has it, where some Greek poster furiously argues that all the I2a-dins are local "Greek" Hunter Gatherer survivors and have nothing to do with the medieval Slavs, and Lazaridis agrees "yes, of course, that could may well be the case!", like I said, extremely embarrassing for a publisher of his caliber.

FTDNA is a self selected group, not a randomized group according to statistical rules that turn it into a representative population sample.

EV13 could have very well come from the non Mycenaean/non Achaian Greek tribes or from the local population that was there before the Greeks came, let's call them Pelasgian. Let's wait until the samples come from other settlements other than Mycenaean acropolis. For all we know the proto Greeks were only the elite warrior class and the rest of the country were Pelasgians. The elite imposed their language over the locals and that was that. We do not have enough samples to tell one way or the other. Albanians have just as much EV13 as the Greeks and they are at a loss as to its provenance. Illyrian samples have not yielded any answers. We can speculate all we want but we need more samples.

 

[eupator]

FTDNA is a self selected group, not a randomized group according to statistical rules that turn it into a representative population sample.

EV13 could have very well come from the non Mycenaean/non Achaian Greek tribes or from the local population that was there before the Greeks came, let's call them Pelasgian. Let's wait until the samples come from other settlements other than Mycenaean acropolis. For all we know the proto Greeks were only the elite warrior class and the rest of the country were Pelasgians. The elite imposed their language over the locals and that was that. We do not have enough samples to tell one way or the other. Albanians have just as much EV13 as the Greeks and they are at a loss as to its provenance. Illyrian samples have not yielded any answers. We can speculate all we want but we need more samples.

E-V13 has nothing to do with "Pelasgians" who consist of the Anatolian substratum in the region. The branching was brought to peninsular Greece by the Dacian settlers of 10th-11th century A.D from Dacia and Bogdania. This chronological group seems to be one of the most successful, in terms of population boom, post Medieval in the region.

The way I read the data is that the Pelasgian substratum consists of mostly Anatolian Js, and the proto-Greek "elite incursion" as you call it is marked by Mycenean Yamnaya R1b (pf7562/3 in this case).

Why over-complicate things? It's pretty clear what happened. The only people that have an issue with this are the people who are upset by the current modern haplogroup distribution.


PS. FTDNA sampling is bad? That's news to me.

 

[Jovialis]

I am sorry, man, I think you have got the wrong end of the stick about me. I really don't get why you're so upset about my posts, I'd say that are pretty impartial and the only people targetted per se by my comments are various Greek ethno-fora posters, not you, not Italians, not Albanians and certainly not anyone else. Given that I am born and bred Greek from Greece and not the diaspora, tax-paying citizen and an accomplished military conscript of I1 classification (meaning that it's my ass in the front lines if the proverbial crap hits the fan) I think I have earned the right to comment on some of my country's shortcomings, no?

Furthermore, I am not emotionally vested in this discourse in the sense that I am not anxious to prove anything, I enter the data as an agnostic. I am a student of ethnography and history, I have a PH.D. (you can read my thesis online if you want, can PM details to w/e is interested), and I face the same establishment omerta that every ethnographer has faced when doing relevant research in Greece since the early 60s, albeit it's much easier now. With all due respect, you are an outsider in this conversation and you lack significant knowledge and life experience about the 'politics of history' in this country and what they permeate. Other Balkaners might be more apprehensive in the sense that they probably faced similar circumstances in their own countries, things that are completely foreign practices to academia in the West.

Thirdly, Moreans have input in varying degrees from Italics, Anatolians, North Africans, Albanophones and (more than anything else) Vlach/Bogdanians. It's written in historical accords and the uniparentals prove it. I am sorry but it's just how it is, no matter how much my posts are upsetting to some, they hold the truth and the matter of fact is that everything I post can be cross-referenced, I always provide sources and I have made several tutorials on various sites to teach people how to use software like qpAdm in order to cross-reference what I say, which I might add I am one of the very first people who have actually done so (streamline the process for the non-initiated).

Lastly, if I am allowed a personal comment towards you, since you are calling me a coward and all sorts, I don't think you should be so upset since this is a conversation that doesn't really concern you, per se, it's something between us Greeks so to speak. The fact that I make it public is that I believe in the advancement of truth, there is only one truth and it is what liberates people, the lies eventually get washed out by the tide of time. People are free to read my material and decide for themselves. Lazaridis can come out and give us that ancient Greek I2a-din parent clade, or that E-V13, and put an end to this discussion, but as long as uniparental testing and branching exists, his conclusions about 'continuities' are incomplete, in my opinion.

Don't shoot the messenger!

Peace!

Well, I have read the pertinent papers on the topic, and frankly I am disappointed that you take such a strident and hostile stance in contravention to them. Like I said, I have no problem with disagreement, I have no right to stop people. But what I do have an issue with is painting people who argue for genetic continuity of (Some) Greeks as being ethno-nationalist supremacists. I am merely parroting what the papers say about the genetic continuity of some Greeks, as well as the degrees augmentation. As a moderator of this forum, I am here to nip that in the bud. When I read your posts, they seem to violate that sentiment, and suggest a biased motive for those that subscribe to continuity. Especially since that is exactly what I just parroted. There are indeed non-Greeks who also argue for genetic continuity, I don't think they're biased. But calling people the equivalent to Nazis who subscribe to what peer-reviewed papers say is a problem.

 

[bigsnake49]

I am sorry, man, I think you have got the wrong end of the stick about me. I really don't get why you're so upset about my posts, I'd say that are pretty impartial and the only people targetted per se by my comments are various Greek ethno-fora posters, not you, not Italians, not Albanians and certainly not anyone else. Given that I am born and bred Greek from Greece and not the diaspora, tax-paying citizen and an accomplished military conscript of I1 classification (meaning that it's my ass in the front lines if the proverbial crap hits the fan) I think I have earned the right to comment on some of my country's shortcomings, no?

Furthermore, I am not emotionally vested in this discourse in the sense that I am not anxious to prove anything, I enter the data as an agnostic. I am a student of ethnography and history, I have a PH.D. (you can read my thesis online if you want, can PM details to w/e is interested), and I face the same establishment omerta that every ethnographer has faced when doing relevant research in Greece since the early 60s, albeit it's much easier now. With all due respect, you are an outsider in this conversation and you lack significant knowledge and life experience about the 'politics of history' in this country and what they permeate. Other Balkaners might be more apprehensive in the sense that they probably faced similar circumstances in their own countries, things that are completely foreign practices to academia in the West.

Thirdly, Moreans have input in varying degrees from Italics, Anatolians, North Africans, Albanophones and (more than anything else) Vlach/Bogdanians. It's written in historical accords and the uniparentals prove it. I am sorry but it's just how it is, no matter how much my posts are upsetting to some, they hold the truth and the matter of fact is that everything I post can be cross-referenced, I always provide sources and I have made several tutorials on various sites to teach people how to use software like qpAdm in order to cross-reference what I say, which I might add I am one of the very first people who have actually done so (streamline the process for the non-initiated).

Lastly, if I am allowed a personal comment towards you, since you are calling me a coward and all sorts, I don't think you should be so upset since this is a conversation that doesn't really concern you, per se, it's something between us Greeks so to speak. The fact that I make it public is that I believe in the advancement of truth, there is only one truth and it is what liberates people, the lies eventually get washed out by the tide of time. People are free to read my material and decide for themselves. Lazaridis can come out and give us that ancient Greek I2a-din parent clade, or that E-V13, and put an end to this discussion, but as long as uniparental testing and branching exists, his conclusions about 'continuities' are incomplete, in my opinion.

Don't shoot the messenger!

Peace!

Be careful about medieval authors as much as I am careful about Herodotus. They cannot be trusted fully. Need primary sources like census or imperial edicts.

 

[Jovialis]

Even if you are born in Greece, pay taxes, are a veteran, vote there, live there, speak Greek, etc.

How does that change the fact that certain Peloponnesian groups have a close affinity to Neolithic Greece, when other parts are not?

The fact that I am born in the United States to Italian-immigrant parents, doesn't change that either.

It doesn't make other people in the Greek ethnicity less "Greek", but it does show that some Peloponnesian groups retained a genetic profile that was observed in Mycenaeans, among others in the Balkans.

the 1:10 Yamna/Minoan ratio is something that is extended to people outside of the Greek culture as well.

All I am merely saying is that some people have experienced less augmentation, OR maybe they were a bit different to begin with. To me, it seems like Ancient Greco-Anatolians, and some Greek Islanders have been more influenced from contemporaneous indigenous Anatolians along with more Levantine, than the people that went on to become Mycenaeans.