Comparing Ancient Greek populations to modern Greeks and Italians

Testing sites where the samples are mostly from a self-selected group like diaspora Italians or Greeks are highly unlikely to provide accurate information. That was found to be true even with English samples. That's why I mostly stick with samples from academic papers, even if the numbers are smaller, because some attempt is made to get representative samples.

That is one reason why I wish someone would make an attempt to get a hold of the large number of modern samples from the Peloponnese paper. I get bad vibes when people seem to prefer that certain samples not be analyzed or at least downplay their significance.

I also think people interested in yDna data get fooled by high percentages produced by founder effects in isolated areas. The people may not be all that different autosomally from people nearby who live in more accessible areas.

As for E-V13, I have stayed out of the discussion as I didn't want to add another controversial topic to my repertoire. However, given what we know of its expansion, I would look for a group from a very metal working centered culture, not some "Johnny come Lately's".
 
Angela said:
Testing sites where the samples are mostly from a self-selected group like diaspora Italians or Greeks are highly unlikely to provide accurate information. That was found to be true even with English samples. That's why I mostly stick with samples from academic papers, even if the numbers are smaller, because some attempt is made to get representative samples.

That is one reason why I wish someone would make an attempt to get a hold of the large number of modern samples from the Peloponnese paper. I get bad vibes when people seem to prefer that certain samples not be analyzed or at least downplay their significance.

I also think people interested in yDna data get fooled by high percentages produced by founder effects in isolated areas. The people may not be all that different autosomally from people nearby who live in more accessible areas.

As for E-V13, I have stayed out of the discussion as I didn't want to add another controversial topic to my repertoire. However, given what we know of its expansion, I would look for a group from a very metal working centered culture, not some "Johnny come Lately's".
Click to expand...

The thing about E-V13 is that it decreases in coastal zones and probably in Deep Mani since they tend to have high J2a where those populations are genetically more 'conservative' both by modern genetic testing and Byzantine records. The contrast is very apparent in Eastern Cretans.

So far from +10 Classical Greek male samples and many more Mycenaean ones, none of them turned out to be E-V13. The same is true about Illyrians. It is what it is. We just have to wait for future papers but unfortunately it will take a very long time.
 
mount123 said:
J1b? There are three ancient Greek J1b-ZS50 samples and in a more recent paper it has been found in a late Neolithic context in Gumelnița, Romania. Albanians don't carry any J1b-ZS50 and J1-M267 in general is rather irrelevant to Albanians whose most common Paleo-Balkan lineages are mainly E1b-V13, R1b-Z2103, R1b-PF7562>PF7563, J2b-L283.

PS: I know that your comment is a troll comment. I assume with the J1 alteration you are trying to make a "funny" comment a la 2011 claiming Middleeastern origins for Albanians. Perhaps try to add something more useful to the topic next time.
Click to expand...

Rather it was a "funny" comment for J2b - Ev13 wars..I have plenty of brainfar*s but I prefer to keep them for myself or for other places and simply wait for hard data ,I come in here out of curiosity , learn one or two things and laugh at some stuff.The certain thing is that what to today are the theories/conclusions of the past ,today's ones will be that some years later.
 
Focusing on only one or two haplogroups misses the forest for the trees, proverbially. Mainland Greeks have a significant percentage of J2a lineages, some of which probably help pull Greeks more south than the limited view of one or two other haplogroups would indicate. I am not only I-Y3120, but T-CTS933 and J-L70 (and the rest of the great grandparent lineages, whatever they are). The autosomal profile tells the story best, and why there is academic consensus about modern Greeks.
 
Ralphie Boy said:
Focusing on only one or two haplogroups misses the forest for the trees, proverbially. Mainland Greeks have a significant percentage of J2a lineages, some of which probably help pull Greeks more south than the limited view of one or two other haplogroups would indicate. I am not only I-Y3120, but T-CTS933 and J-L70 (and the rest of the great grandparent lineages, whatever they are). The autosomal profile tells the story best, and why there is academic consensus about modern Greeks.
Click to expand...


what do you mean by I am not only I-Y3120, but T-CTS933 and J-L70 ?
 
torzio said:
what do you mean by I am not only I-Y3120, but T-CTS933 and J-L70 ?
Click to expand...

I mean that I have I-Y3120 (paternal line) and J-L70 and T-CTS933 (2 great grandfathers). Wish I knew more about the other haplogroups, but both relatives are disinterested in testing further to find the subbranches. The autosomal profile of my original Y3120 ancestor who likely came in the Middle Ages speaking Slavic was probably very different than my first L70 and T ancestors, who may have had regional profiles and not be from outside the Southern Arc, like Lazaridis et al. said about outliers. These all contribute to my autosomal profile. Sorry for any confusion. Scientists argue that we come from old regional populations with augmentation from newcomers, almost like my own profile might imply. Totally agree that Greeks took in a lot of foreign input over the years and would never argue otherwise.
 
bigsnake49 said:
Look you have an argument with geneticists, you speculate that EV13 came from Dacians when EV13s provenance is very cloudy and then you bring in medieval authors like Anna Komnini as if she is on the same level as modern historians.
Click to expand...

Hyperbole much?

Look, man, acting like you're some sort of gatekeeper who gets to decide which medieval source is better over the other, w/o explaining why or counter-arguing; but rather directly comparing them to modern historians when it is the moderns who actually draw heavily from them in the first place when they write about the period, does nothing more than further comedify your predicament.

Give it up, you've lost this round.

No one has explained yet why Dacian E-V13 permeating modern Greek peninsulars is not a direct result of 10th-11th settling, all you do is attemp to discredit the source or make vague appeals to authority or write fan-fic tier explanations like the 'Pelasgians were E-V13'.

At least no one has argued that I2a-din is native classical Greek stuff, yet.
 
For those who distrust FTDNA Project's numbers.

Courtesy of wikipedia displaying the assorted studies:

Greeks (North): 18.8% R1a + 12.5% I (I2a-din is in here) + 35.4% E1b1b (E-V13 is in here), 60% total.
Greeks (Thrace): 22% R1a + 18.5% I + 18.5% E1b1b, 59%.
Greeks (Peloponnese): 47.4% E1b1b !!!

So much for studies discrediting FTDNA sampling.

All these findings perfectly correspond to the FTDNA Project's branching, in fact they are eerily similar on average, I guess your next goalpost would be to say that 'not all Is are confirmed I2a-din!', even though it's easy to extrapolate that they are indeed that, based on the Project's database.

Waiting to hear the next cope, but not really.
 
So far we have just one sample from Iron age Greece and one sample from hellenistic Greece. These will be essential in understanding medieval changes in Greek demography
 
Francesco said:
So far we have just one sample from Iron age Greece and one sample from hellenistic Greece. These will be essential in understanding medieval changes in Greek demography
Click to expand...

Imo, if MBA northern Greece has inherently more steppe, I think a change we can expect is more steppe in the south from mixing overtime. Pulling them north and east. Maybe that's why those two tend to overlap with south Italy, which is north and east of many ancient Mycenaeans.
 
Jovialis said:
Imo, if MBA northern Greece has inherently more steppe, I think a change we can expect is more steppe in the south from mixing overtime. Pulling them north and east. Maybe that's why those two tend to overlap with south Italy, which is north and east of many ancient Mycenaeans.
Click to expand...

That is what I'm expecting to see in the archaic/classical period and then in the hellenistic era: a bit more EHG due to contacts with logkas-like folks (we see similar individuals even amongst late bronze age myceneans) and a bit more CHG/Iran_N due to contact with the poleis on the anatolian coast.

I think a similar scenario would make sense historically.
 
Francesco said:
That is what I'm expecting to see in the archaic/classical period and then in the hellenistic era: a bit more EHG due to contacts with logkas-like folks (we see similar individuals even amongst late bronze age myceneans) and a bit more CHG/Iran_N due to contact with the poleis on the anatolian coast.

I think a similar scenario would make sense historically.
Click to expand...

Yeah, I think you would probably see both an increase of steppe and anatolia_BA, as time goes one.
 
I feel like this is observable in this model.

tXbOfGM.png


The ancient Achaeans were a Yamna/Minon admixed groups, but some had very little Yamna. In Northern Greece, the cline shows a lot more steppe in the MBA.

To me, it seem like Greek culture was developed not really through conquest by the Steppe, but rather a cultural synthesis that naturally played out due to proximity to one another. The Y-DNA and ancient autosomal DNA seem to support that imho. We don't see huge population turn over, steppe haplogroups are very low.

I think because the Minoans were the most advanced civilization in Europe, and they were more densely populated, they could not be conquered by the steppe.

Even before the Minoans, the neolithic people of the Cyclades were building pyramids in the Aegean out rocks, which had indoor plumbing. I think the Steppe people, those that live on the periphery were probably more like Mexican immigrants that want to get a piece of the action. (I don't mean that in an insulting way, I have steppe haplogroup, and clearly admixture as well. But I think that is a suitable analogy)

I think they just naturally mixed with each other through convenience.

Ironically, the spirit of the Indo-Europeans could not be more better exemplified than the Ancient Greeks. They were ancient ethno-nationalist supremacist, who subjugated their neighbors, who they thought of as inferior and sub-human.
 
Francesco said:
So far we have just one sample from Iron age Greece and one sample from hellenistic Greece. These will be essential in understanding medieval changes in Greek demography
Click to expand...

Yeah this is really what amazes me about people doing pontificating without samples from different time periods and different locales. I also want samples not just from the elite with their fancy burials just to make sure that we have representative samples of the general population and not just the elite.
 
eupator said:
For those who distrust FTDNA Project's numbers.

Courtesy of wikipedia displaying the assorted studies:

Greeks (North): 18.8% R1a + 12.5% I (I2a-din is in here) + 35.4% E1b1b (E-V13 is in here), 60% total.
Greeks (Thrace): 22% R1a + 18.5% I + 18.5% E1b1b, 59%.
Greeks (Peloponnese): 47.4% E1b1b !!!

So much for studies discrediting FTDNA sampling.

All these findings perfectly correspond to the FTDNA Project's branching, in fact they are eerily similar on average, I guess your next goalpost would be to say that 'not all Is are confirmed I2a-din!', even though it's easy to extrapolate that they are indeed that, based on the Project's database.

Waiting to hear the next cope, but not really.
Click to expand...

According to Maciamo who collected the samples from all studies in Macedonia and Thrace:
18% R1a (almost all North Slavic)
16% I2a (almost all North Slavic)
5% I1 (Germanic or Slavic)
20% E (probably 16%-18% E-V13)

Almost all subclades of R1a and I2a according to Maciamo are Slavic in those studies.
 
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Before the exchange of populations in the 1900, what is now Greek Thrace had a majority Turkish speaking/Muslim religion. Eastern Thrace was the reverse. After the exchange of populations Eastern Thrace and Pontic populations moved to Western Thrace and Eastern Macedonia. Eastern Romylia Greek Speakers moved to the same areas a bit earlier.
 
Look in the Figure 3 of this article:
https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0179474#pone-0179474-g003

As you can see E-M78 and its subclade EV13 is found throughout Greece and Cyprus. Did the Dacians (or commonly known as Vlachs) find their way to Cyprus and Western Anatolia (Ionia)? Or maybe EV13 either came with the Greeks or most probably was a pre Greek, Balkanic haplo found throughout the Balkans?

BTW, the Vlachs that Alexis Komnenos sent to Peloponnesus from Chalkidiki in 1097, how many families did they number?

According to Maciamo's post https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threa...-deep-ancestry?p=378203&viewfull=1#post378203

"If there is one stark contrast between the Vlachs and the non-Vlach populations of the eastern Balkans (North Greece, Albania, Macedonia, Romania, Bulgaria) is that the Vlachs have considerably more R1b (21.5% against a regional average of 14.5%) and J2 (19.5% against 15%) and considerably less E1b1b (16.5% against 20%) than everybody else. The percentages of I2a2, G2a and T fit well in the average for the region. R1a is lower than in North Greece, Macedonia, Bulgaria or Romania, but similar to Albania."
 
bigsnake49 said:
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Before the exchange of populations in the 1900, what is now Greek Thrace had a majority Turkish speaking/Muslim religion. Eastern Thrace was the reverse. After the exchange of populations Eastern Thrace and Pontic populations moved to Western Thrace and Eastern Macedonia. Eastern Romylia Greek Speakers moved to the same areas a bit earlier.
Click to expand...
'

The Muslims were a plurality in Macedonia (the Greek region, not the country) too. But probably they had mixed background, Albanian and Slavic. Some Greek elements too. Their descendants are in Turkey.
 
bigsnake49 said:
Look in the Figure 3 of this article:
https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0179474#pone-0179474-g003

As you can see E-M78 and its subclade EV13 is found throughout Greece and Cyprus. Did the Dacians (or commonly known as Vlachs) find their way to Cyprus and Western Anatolia (Ionia)? Or maybe EV13 either came with the Greeks or most probably was a pre Greek, Balkanic haplo found throughout the Balkans?

BTW, the Vlachs that Alexis Komnenos sent to Peloponnesus from Chalkidiki in 1097, how many families did they number?

According to Maciamo's post https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threa...-deep-ancestry?p=378203&viewfull=1#post378203

"If there is one stark contrast between the Vlachs and the non-Vlach populations of the eastern Balkans (North Greece, Albania, Macedonia, Romania, Bulgaria) is that the Vlachs have considerably more R1b (21.5% against a regional average of 14.5%) and J2 (19.5% against 15%) and considerably less E1b1b (16.5% against 20%) than everybody else. The percentages of I2a2, G2a and T fit well in the average for the region. R1a is lower than in North Greece, Macedonia, Bulgaria or Romania, but similar to Albania."
Click to expand...

Yea, Dacians came and took over Peloponnesus. Makes sense.
28f5fc20d10026795d1da1e0c312e932.jpg



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

This thread has been viewed 134236 times.

Back
Top