Jovialis
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Comparing Ancient Greek populations to modern Greeks and Italians
- Thread starter matadworf
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eupator
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Yes, of course they did, post 10th-11th century when they started descending en mass. Cyprus has had several migratory patterns (from both Anatolia and the peninsula) and Western Anatolia was emptied and repopulated several times.
E-V13 was popularised during the Imperial Byzantine times throughout the imperium, with various population flows. There's pontic greeks with E-V13 sharing recent medieval TMRCAs with Albanians, it's obvious what happened. The only one in denial is you clutching at straws and arguing for "Pelasgian origins".
Dacians/Thracians were one of the most successful populations during that time and we see that today.
eupator
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The Greek Vlachs' R1bs are almost entirely recent Albanian Z2106 clades with the odd L584 (like mine) here and there (Armenian/Georgian settler input(?) haven't decided yet), you haven't studied haplogroup distribution in our region at all (like I have and many other Albanian forum members) so you keep embarrassing yourself by doubling down on stuff you are clueless at.
The "Vlachs" and the Albanophones in medieval Greece often intermingle and are treated as one body. By attempting to isolate vlach presence only to Armani in Greece, you are conveniently leaving out all their Grecophone parts out. You obviously haven't done any ethnographic homework at all.
eupator
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That paper is the pinnacle of discount-nationalism cringe, together with Poulianos and Triandafillydis.
Kari
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why tho?There is another study which models peloponnesians as 86,6% balkanites from iron age,and 13,4% slavic"Cosmopolitanism at the Roman Danubian Frontier, Slavic Migrations, and the Genomic Formation of Modern Balkan Peoples"
Angela
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Perhaps because he doesn't like the results? I don't know. Lazaridis certainly did, to the best of my recollection.
Most Albanians reacted in the same way, as you can tell if you read the entire thread on the paper.
I think Peloponnesians were modelled as 30% Slavic in the paper you mentioned.
The overall Slavic ancestry in Peloponnesians should be from 25% minimum to 45% maximum (depending on if the Slavs were Bosnian-like or Ukrainian-like).
While the Fallmerayer 'nearly complete replacement' theory is out of question, still the Slavic admixture is definitely not below 15% in Mainstream Peloponnesians.
bigsnake49
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It is well known and accepted that there was slavic genetic input into the current Greek genetic makeup just like that there is a significant contribution by the Pontic, Cappadocian and Ionian Anatolian Greeks and the Thracian Greeks Nobody is disputing that. Nobody is disputing the input from the Arvanites and to a smaller magnitude from the Vlachs. Heck we have had recent Albanian migrants that became Greek citizens and we have had a quite a few Georgian's that have claimed Greek descent and have gotten away with it. I have long proposed that Roman, Byzantine and Ottoman emperors moved people around for various reasons, chief among them to maximize tax revenues. But I need data, whether genetic, archaeological, census or imperial edicts before I can accept any assertions, Herodotus, Anna Comnini or Chalkocondylis be damned.
Archetype0ne
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The results are nonsensical. But that is not even the point.
I recreated the whole methodology, down to the tails (finding mistakes in transcription even there, but whatever that's what peer reviews of sloppily written papers are for). I discussed the results with anyone interested and able to run the models (formal methods room, in AG discord). Based on the authors very methodology, when instead of using Empuries and Mordvins as proxies, one uses better proxies that came out since that preprint (MN, AL, MKD, BGR / AV, BYZ3, CZE_Early_Slavic etc...), the Slavic admixture dropped from their reported 40-45% to 10-15% in Albanians and the gradient south to north started to make historical sense...
I mean how do you go through post grad training in this field and think Empuries + Mordvins are good proxies for Croats?:embarassed:
Bottom line, the result are trash, but the methodology was garbage. And the people I discussed this with, clowned on the paper as a side remark, as something comical not worth discussing even. Asking me why do I even bother wasting my time on it. (people that had the pedigree to clown on them, since I am just a hobbyist, and not a professional in this field). Just an anecdote with little merit, but I found it raveling myself, yet the pre-print speaks for itself.
Lets see when the paper comes out if their thesis survives. 2 year wait, but I heard it might come out later this year.
Leopoldo Leone
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You can't say that the "slavic ancestry drops to 10-15%" as a fact when it is the result of this paper which must even go through peer review... Anyway, it is not a shocking revelation that ADMIXTURE runs depend on the selection of reference pops, so if one chooses different reference pops (Albania_IA vs Greece_IA+Slavic) there are bound to be different results and one ought to compare both "technical" fitness (P values) of the runs and "extratechnical" feasibility (how much well the runs make sense in the light of other evidence).
Honestly I am growing tired of reading nonsensical speculations regarding the ethnogenesis of modern Greeks and Italians invoking ghost migrations from far away places and implausible admixture events, speculations that seem to have the goal to lower as much as possible the continuity between them and ancient peoples; the modern scientific literature broadly supports the view of the kind of genetic continuity seen everywhere else in Eurasia, hence people contesting that must bring really good evidence and arguments against that claim, not the nonsensical crap I've kept seeing for years.
eupator
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Modern Greeks descending from their Late Medieval Byzantine and Ottoman Rums ancestors is now invoking foreign and exotic admixtures, very interesting.
All modern nations are proud of their medieval heritage, but Greeks nope, not allowed. They have to commit 1000+ years of ethno-cultural and historical obliteration to their identity to placate the narratives of the West.
All modern nations are proud of their medieval heritage, but Greeks nope, not allowed. They have to commit 1000+ years of ethno-cultural and historical obliteration to their identity to placate the narratives of the West.
Idontknowwhatimdoing
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I feel like this is observable in this model.
The ancient Achaeans were a Yamna/Minon admixed groups, but some had very little Yamna. In Northern Greece, the cline shows a lot more steppe in the MBA.
To me, it seem like Greek culture was developed not really through conquest by the Steppe, but rather a cultural synthesis that naturally played out due to proximity to one another. The Y-DNA and ancient autosomal DNA seem to support that imho. We don't see huge population turn over, steppe haplogroups are very low.
I think because the Minoans were the most advanced civilization in Europe, and they were more densely populated, they could not be conquered by the steppe.
Even before the Minoans, the neolithic people of the Cyclades were building pyramids in the Aegean out rocks, which had indoor plumbing. I think the Steppe people, those that live on the periphery were probably more like Mexican immigrants that want to get a piece of the action. (I don't mean that in an insulting way, I have steppe haplogroup, and clearly admixture as well. But I think that is a suitable analogy)
I think they just naturally mixed with each other through convenience.
Ironically, the spirit of the Indo-Europeans could not be more better exemplified than the Ancient Greeks. They were ancient ethno-nationalist supremacist, who subjugated their neighbors, who they thought of as inferior and sub-human.
What happens if you add Levant_BA in this model? Why is it not used?
Ralphie Boy
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Would think that some of the Slavs were Ukrainian like, because the I-Y18331 men branched off from the ancestors of Ashkenazi Jews from East Europe (in or near the Slavic homeland). Those men, for reasons unknown, appear to have gone straight to the region of Albania/North Macedonia/northern Greece, according to modern distributions, and not to other Balkan regions where Slavs settled.
There is a Y3120 Medieval sample in Southern Arc, and if memory serves, he had something like 30% Anatolia Neolithic. The argument in the Roman Danubian frontier paper is that Slavs brought a “northeastern” ancestry and mixed relatively quickly with local populations. Also per the Danubian supplementals, neither Balkans IA nor Roman Marathon could be used to model the mainland Greeks. Greek Empuries was used instead.
Jovialis
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I don't think it would make sense, particularly give this similarity with Balkanites:
https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threa...ns-paper/page5?p=668483&viewfull=1#post668483
Truthfully, I don't think we have those samples processed yet, nevertheless. Salento knows how to process FASTQ to raw data, I myself am only experienced with BAM. However, the Sidon samples are FASTQ. Maybe Salento could help us out with that.
I think it would be interesting to have them, so then we could test your request, as well as properly model modern middle easterners.
Jovialis
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I think it would conflate a lot with other groups that are similar, such as high CHG/Anatolia_N groups, particularly those with some Levant_PPN. So it would be hard to tell without IBD analysis, which I believe will be upon us soon with aDNA, there's currently a pre-print:
https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2023.03.08.531671v1
Nevertheless, I do not discount the potential influence of the Saracens, who would have brought some legitimate Levant_BA.
https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2023.03.08.531671v1
Nevertheless, I do not discount the potential influence of the Saracens, who would have brought some legitimate Levant_BA.
Pre-Slavic Peloponnesians seem to be similar to modern day Dodecanese Islanders with a western pull towards ancient Greeks. Slavic admixed Deep Maniotes are nearly identical with modern day Cretans, take off that Slavic admixture and they fall in Dodecanese cluster.
There was even a Dodecanese outlier between Deep Maniotes. Given that Slavic speakers in Taygetos survived till the 15th century and were later assimilated by Maniotes only during the Ottoman period it is no big surprise for some old genetic variants to survive as outliers in 19th/early 20th century.
Jovialis
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@idontknowwhatiamdoing:
The Jordan_BA sample average is curtesy of a new user, gh777
Nevertheless, we still need ancIBD.
Code:
Early_Bronze_Age_Jordan_(n=3),3.70,1.96,1.80,2.59,16.66,0.07,0.03,2.56,34.26,0.00,36.36,0.00
Minoan_Zakros:I14916,0,0,3.51,0,31.15,0,2.37,0,12.57,0,49.61,0.8
Minoan_Lasithi,0.652,0.01,3.302,0.19,37.716,0.046,0,0,14.12,0,43.886,0.078
Minoan_Odigitria,2.584,0.472,1.574,0,42.44,0,0,0.338,14.602,0.204,37.722,0.066
Minoan_Petras:Pta08:Clemente_2021,0,0,3.85,0.33,34.73,0.38,0.14,0.05,14.68,0.48,43.65,1.72
Yamnaya,26.74263158,2.019473684,0.048947368,0.048947368,4.413157895,59.63526316,1.102631579,0.022631579,0.02,0,5.234210526,0.712631579
Isparta_BA,7.56,0.286666667,1.633333333,0.573333333,26.18333333,3.166666667,0,0.573333333,14.06666667,0.01,44.24,1.706666667I don't hate anyone but you can take a look at R1b and G in Tuscany for example which compromised the majority of the Latin and Etruscans samples found so far. Around 60%-70%. The same is true with Germanic I1 and R1b in Sweden, Slavic I2a and R1a in Croatia and Ukraine etc.
Now take a look at J2a, G and non-Z2103 R1b in mainland Greeks which compromised practically all of male lines in Ancient Greek samples found so far. Clearly not a good sign for a 3/4 continuity from the time of Plato. It is not my bias but it's what data is saying.
So many folks in here are the first to accept the ugly scientific truth about certain races being less intelligent on average and other controversial truths maybe accepting certain migration's substantial genetic impact wont hurt.
Last edited:
Jovialis
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Here it is along with the Corded_Ware proxy for Slavic in Greeks, but also perhaps some ancestry from Italics in the case of Italians. Since it is possible the Italics were also ultimately descended from Corded Ware
Code:
Early_Bronze_Age_Jordan_(n=3),3.70,1.96,1.80,2.59,16.66,0.07,0.03,2.56,34.26,0.00,36.36,0.00
Minoan_Zakros:I14916,0,0,3.51,0,31.15,0,2.37,0,12.57,0,49.61,0.8
Minoan_Lasithi,0.652,0.01,3.302,0.19,37.716,0.046,0,0,14.12,0,43.886,0.078
Minoan_Odigitria,2.584,0.472,1.574,0,42.44,0,0,0.338,14.602,0.204,37.722,0.066
Minoan_Petras:Pta08:Clemente_2021,0,0,3.85,0.33,34.73,0.38,0.14,0.05,14.68,0.48,43.65,1.72
Yamnaya,26.74263158,2.019473684,0.048947368,0.048947368,4.413157895,59.63526316,1.102631579,0.022631579,0.02,0,5.234210526,0.712631579
Isparta_BA,7.56,0.286666667,1.633333333,0.573333333,26.18333333,3.166666667,0,0.573333333,14.06666667,0.01,44.24,1.706666667
Corded_Ware_(n=6),8.788333333,0.396666667,0,0,25.90333333,60.15,0.156666667,0.005,0,0.513333333,3.671666667,0.42
Stuvanè
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From Jovialis post #777 and 779
_________
| Target: Dodecadk12bStuvanè Distance: 8.6161% / 8.61613896 | |
|---|---|
| 66.2 | Minoan_Odigitria |
| 33.8 | Yamnaya |
_________
| Target: Dodecadk12bStuvanè Distance: 1.0273% / 1.02727326 | ADC: 0.25x RC | |
|---|---|
| 40.2 | Corded_Ware_(n=6) |
| 34.0 | Minoan_Odigitria |
| 23.5 | Minoan_Petras |
| 2.3 | Isparta_BA |
| Target: Dodecadk12bStuvanè Distance: 0.7048% / 0.70475398 | |
|---|---|
| 40.3 | Corded_Ware_(n=6) |
| 29.3 | Minoan_Lasithi |
| 27.2 | Minoan_Odigitria |
| 2.9 | Early_Bronze_Age_Jordan_(n=3) |
| 0.3 | Yamnaya |
| Target: Dodecadk12bStuvanè Distance: 8.6161% / 8.61613896 | |
|---|---|
| 66.2 | Minoan_Odigitria |
| 33.8 | Yamnaya |
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