To burn or not to burn: LBA/EIA Balkan case

[PaleoRevenge]

There's no conspiracy theory in this case, the paper with aDNA from Amvrakia was presented as an abstract at a conference last fall so I assume will be published in the near future.

BTW, it's much easier for dishonest Greek researchers to promote continuity of modern Greeks with the northern Greek/southern Balkan (Logkas-like) samples than with Mycenaeans and classical Greeks, but you don't seem to understand this..

No Pelenope, it's much easier to keep a lie going when there is no data or simply one withholds it. Greece should be the focus of Balkan ancient samples, you know all European antiquity is devoted to Greece, but we can't get ancient samples somehow. We have good coverage and time span for Croatia and Hungary, but not Greece. Oh wait, we have lots of neolithic, Minoan samples and Mycenaean, all from Crete and Peloponnese. The time period of least interest and geographically restricted.

Does this look like sampling to you btw? Or you just looking for a reason to have disputes?

 

[peloponnesian]

No Pelenope, it's much easier to keep a lie going when there is no data or simply one withholds it. Greece should be the focus of Balkan ancient samples, you know all European antiquity is devoted to Greece, but we can't get ancient samples somehow. We have good coverage and time span for Croatia and Hungary, but not Greece. Oh wait, we have lots of neolithic, Minoan samples and Mycenaean, all from Crete and Peloponnese. The time period of least interest and geographically restricted.

Does this look like sampling to you btw? Or you just looking for a reason to have disputes?

You don't even follow the research, if you did you'd know they have made repeated attempts to sample potential proto-Greek burials but most have failed to yield DNA (Nydri Lefkada middle Helladic tombs, Vranas Marathon, others are listed in Clemente et al supplamentals). This isn't just from Greek labs, Reich, Planck, Copenhagen have all got bones from BA Greece.

I agree, Mycenaeans, Minoans and classical Greeks are totally uninteresting to the general public, everyone around the world is waiting with bated breath for Brjenica and Belegis-related developments

 

[PaleoRevenge]

You don't even follow the research, if you did you'd know they have made repeated attempts to sample potential proto-Greek burials but most have failed to yield DNA (Nydri Lefkada middle Helladic tombs, Vranas Marathon, others are listed in Clemente et al supplamentals). This isn't just from Greek labs, Reich, Planck, Copenhagen have all got bones from BA Greece.

I agree, Mycenaeans, Minoans and classical Greeks are totally uninteresting to the general public, everyone around the world is waiting with bated breath for Brjenica and Belegis-related developments

I have not followed, I started using G25 for the first time around this date last year. The current sampling is not random, that;s obvious.

everyone around the world is waiting with bated breath for Brjenica and Belegis-related developments

Strawman much? Where are the samples from Dorian homelands? Or do you equate that with Gava and Martians?

I agree, Mycenaeans, Minoans and classical Greeks

What classical Greeks lol? Thanks to honest Italians we have some indirect samples. From your country all we got is just Mycenaean, Minoans, and neolithic, and probably another batch of 500 samples on the way of the very same period and region.

 

[PaleoRevenge]

The new Roman E-V13 samples compared with prior samples.

FVD011 is the most preserved south Thracian profile to date. FD009 is probably half Dacian, half middle eastern. Is his E-V13 clade special?

 

[Riverman]

The other two are unspecific, only Hacs 21 has a specific subclade so far, which is downstream of E-L241, E1b1b1a1b1a10a2h = E-A7065

E-A7065 YTree

www.yfull.com

 

[PaleoRevenge]

The other two are unspecific, only Hacs 21 has a specific subclade so far, which is downstream of E-L241, E1b1b1a1b1a10a2h = E-A7065

E-A7065 YTree

www.yfull.com

I don't know much about E-V13 branches, that's why I called on for the experts. Hac 21 is Bassarabi derived, but as can be seen, is partially mixed, which is bound to happen by such late period. The samples from Viminacium will be with purer profiles.

 

[Riverman]

I don't know much about E-V13 branches, that's why I called on for the experts. Hac 21 is Bassarabi derived, but as can be seen, is partially mixed, which is bound to happen by such late period. The samples from Viminacium will be with purer profiles.

Hacs 5, 21 + 22 are so similar to each other, and all have about 3/4 EEF + 1/4 steppe that I think this is already something fairly specific. But they could be a bit admixed indeed, yet I'm not sure where this is going. Keep in mind that e.g. E-L241 and its main branch has a TMRCA in the LBA-EIA transition, so its not like its supposed to be restricted to just one group in later times.

This specific branch of E-7065 has a peculiar pattern upstream with lots of North Western samples:

Welcome to FamilyTreeDNA Discover (Beta)

Discover more about your paternal ancestry and join in on the research!

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E-BY5500 YTree

www.yfull.com

There is one big founder branch E-BY5610 to which both lots of Germans and Central-South Eastern Europeans belong. The peculiar North-Southern spread and distribution with multiple founder events would fit into a scheme of resettled Dacians possibly and some branches becoming Vlachs. That's to me a plausible scenario for E-BY5610. The others under E-BY5500 might have spread earlier within in Hallstatt and Celts before as well.

 

[PaleoRevenge]

Hacs 5, 21 + 22 are so similar to each other, and all have about 3/4 EEF + 1/4 steppe that I think this is already something fairly specific. But they could be a bit admixed indeed, yet I'm not sure where this is going. Keep in mind that e.g. E-L241 and its main branch has a TMRCA in the LBA-EIA transition, so its not like its supposed to be restricted to just one group in later times.

They plot similar because of variations in non Daco-thracian admixture, Hac 21 is a watered down west Bassarabi, while Hac 22 is half Thracian, probably a quarter Dacian and MENA admixture. The problem is all Daco-Thracians are in the same cline, so even a Dacian or Bassarabi partially admixed with MENA will pull toward south Thracians. I am not seeing a new cluster, just disintegrating IA profiles. Real data for E-V13 profiles start further east, Viminacium will be the first true eye opener.

As I wrote before, Himera I10946 is the most Dacian of all profiles in my observation, and Kapitan Androvo samples point to the pre Aegean parent population plotting like Cinamak. Over time E-V13 dispersed, South Thracian being pulled by Minoan like admixture, Bassarabi likely with Vatin and Illyrian admixture plus second hand Aegean through south Thracian. While Dacians received balto-slavic like pull in addition to maintaining some ties with other E-V13 groups. Despite all these different pulls, a coherent cline survived until Roman collapse.

 

[Southpaw]

Vatin is an interesting culture and candidate for some of E-V13.

 

[PaleoRevenge]

In anthrogenica, Riverman and Brum i zi brought up in a debate the existence of new unknown samples from BA Serbia, E-V13 was not present. My guess is, this is from the mythical BA study co-authored by Carles Lulueza.

 

[Riverman]

In anthrogenica, Riverman and Brum i zi brought up in a debate the existence of new unknown samples from BA Serbia, E-V13 was not present. My guess is, this is from the mythical BA study co-authored by Carles Lulueza.

The Gomolava samples? Those aren't ready yet or at least I haven't heard of any results. They are the best candidates for E-V13 in a LBA-EIA context as of yet. It will also depends upon the size of the sample. In theory there could be dozens which means to me that E-V13 would be highly likely present, even if the main group was not dominated by it, since they were surely at least neighbours to the main E-V13 clans.

 

[PaleoRevenge]

The Gomolava samples? Those aren't ready yet or at least I haven't heard of any results. They are the best candidates for E-V13 in a LBA-EIA context as of yet. It will also depends upon the size of the sample. In theory there could be dozens which means to me that E-V13 would be highly likely present, even if the main group was not dominated by it, since they were surely at least neighbours to the main E-V13 clans.

I am talking about the other study which you guys did not name, a discord discussion maybe, I wouldn't know.

Gomolava are not ideal, because it is a mass grave and would not represent a particular culture, more likely a multiple of peoples. But I do believe some of the sacrificed individuals are E-V13 and they will be important in disclosing E-V13 profile that's not polluted with south Thracian or MENA admixture. If you browsed through the 1,200 BC project Facebook page, they have disclosed their Gomolava samples in various presentations at least since 3 years ago. I think Carles Lulieaza-Fox included them in the slides. It's the only way the slides would make sense, there is a single I1 in IA Balkans, for example. Where did he get that from? Gomolava sounds about right.

Also the math of Gomolava, 77 samples, all women and children, meaning around 50% adult women, and 50% children (male and female). That comes to about 19 males if everything is equal. I backed into 25 unaccounted haplogroups in his IA slide. Not too far off. Female child would have likely not been sacrificed if deemed in good health, and kept as future/potential partner. A male child from a rival tribe on the other hand, a certain sacrifice.

 

[PaleoRevenge]

On rrenjets new topic about Drenica, someone asked rrenjet to defeine the haplogroups that stem from Dardania.

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Rrenjet is not too sure when this expansion or migration occurred of E-V13 and R-Z2705, and gave it a huge time window. They have insider information to have excluded 500 AD for good, and they must have Kruja-Komani samples too, for them to extend the range date all the way to 1,000 AD.

 

[Riverman]

That's rather strange, because we see the diversification of some Albanian E-V13 branches starting earlier. Doesn't mean they were in Albania or Albanians, but the whole branch is Albanian today and such branching and founder events are usually associated with an ethnogenesis or migration. To me it looks like 6th-8th century, basically with/after the Slavs, is a safe bet. Anything before, much less so, which just means it remains speculative due to a lack of data.
Some could have been Daco-Romans/Early Vlachs, Southern Slavic groups or Pre-/Proto-Albanians before, who knows without the data.

 

[PaleoRevenge]

In the article about Drenica they introduced their hypothesis that Albanian ethnogenesis occurred when a group migrated from what was known as Dardania into present day Albanian and beyond, giving a range of this migration from 6th to 11th century. When asked which haplogroups, they replied mainly E-V13 and R-Z2705 (but there are a few minor others). This is the exact same group gjergj alluded to. One key statement in there is also about this group being the main thrust of the people that became Arberesh and Arvanites.
I am certain they have access to unpublished historical samples from upcoming studies. And there is the new study that was announced in Albanian media about modern populations Arberesh and Albanians. Rrenjet without a doubt was involved in cross referencing haplogroups and know the exact mutual clades shared between Arberesh and Albanians. The way they structured the sentence gives away clues.

To me it looks like 6th-8th century, basically with/after the Slavs, is a safe bet.

The more intriguing question is why stretch the window all the way to the 11th century. Do you think they prefer to have the Dardanian group come in so late, you don't think they prefer E-V13 and R-Z2705 moved in as soon as possible? We know what they hope/prefer happened(we have argued with them in anthrogenica) and it is at odds with what they declared. If you read between the lines, they must have data that leaves them with a sour taste in their mouth.
I am certain the great Germans were correct as always, Bessi migrated in the 800s. You can see Alb specific J2b clades go in decline starting 800 AD, hitting a low point in 1,000 AD, as the new "Dardanian" group suppressed them. They begin to recover 1,100 AD as they start to integrate clade by clade, region by region, with the newcomers forming the Ghegs.

 

[PaleoRevenge]

Here you go Riverman, apparently the G25s from the Pannonian samples were revised by Davidski, as a better format of raw data became available. As you can see Hac-21 is not south Thracian at all. But just as the previous model alluded, a watered down west Bassarabi(partial ME mixture pulling it down).

Model with new G25, I kept the old FDV values as comparisons(they've been renamed in their new values).

Other E-V13 profiles do exist and will eventually show up, especially from earlier times. More and more indirect evidence is building up.

 

[Riverman]

Talking about Albanians again, it is interesting that one of the most common Albanian branches, E-PH2180 split first from Central Europeans and second from a clearly Vlach lineage. Both the Albanian and the Vlach branch start to diversify around 500 AD, shortly after the split. That pattern suggests a Vlach/Daco-Roman founder from Late Antiquity, the migration period.
There are smaller branches which repeat that pattern of a split around 500 AD, like E-BY5350 (Bulgarian and Albanian).

Of course that doesn't answer what language the upstream branch before the Albanian-Vlach split spoke, but its a remarkable pattern nevertheless, since such well-tested, widespread branches can be pretty accurately dated. Globetrekker puts E-PH2180 between North Kosovo and Southern to Central Serbia by the way. While its often wrong for not well-tested branches, it is more often right than wrong for recent and well-tested branches, like this one.

 

[broder]

Talking about Albanians again, it is interesting that one of the most common Albanian branches, E-PH2180 split first from Central Europeans and second from a clearly Vlach lineage. Both the Albanian and the Vlach branch start to diversify around 500 AD, shortly after the split. That pattern suggests a Vlach/Daco-Roman founder from Late Antiquity, the migration period.
There are smaller branches which repeat that pattern of a split around 500 AD, like E-BY5350 (Bulgarian and Albanian).

Of course that doesn't answer what language the upstream branch before the Albanian-Vlach split spoke, but its a remarkable pattern nevertheless, since such well-tested, widespread branches can be pretty accurately dated. Globetrekker puts E-PH2180 between North Kosovo and Southern to Central Serbia by the way. While its often wrong for not well-tested branches, it is more often right than wrong for recent and well-tested branches, like this one.

Which branch is that? A clearly Vlach Lineage

 

[Riverman]

Which branch is that? A clearly Vlach Lineage

E-FT151956. https://discover.familytreedna.com/y-dna/E-FT151956/tree
They are from Serbia, the one with the Romanian flag from a known Romanian/Vlach village at the border:

Mali Žam - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The Serbian surname of the other match is most common in Northern Serbia, but more widespread. Globetrekker gives the branch at hotspot in Northern Serbia and Southern Romania (start at about 500 AD).
Are there Albanian testers in that branch? Not that I know of on FTDNA.

Also noteworthy, that the centre of E-FT151956 is in the area close to the Avar era find from Hungary in an upstream sibling branch of E-PH2180 (Székkutas 70). To me it looks the centre of E-BY5617 was in the Basarabi-East Hallstatt sphere, with a focus along the Danube. From there different branches spread out, including one more Southern one, which formed the Albanian-Vlach/Romanian one around 500 AD. Directly upstream is a test from Southern Germany.

On YFull is a second Albanian and a Second Serbian branch upstream too. But the distribution overall is heavily Central European upstream, especially Germany, Poland, Czechia. A position close to the Danube with a focus in the Basarabi group is ideal for that pattern in my opinion. Because Basarabi migrants moved West multiple times in the end phase of Hallstatt, during Vekerzug and with La Tene Celts, as well as in the Roman and migration era.

 

[broder]

Bro, just by looking at the block tree you can clearly see that there are four Alb parallel branches to FT151956. And there are also FT151956 Alb Clans from North Albania.