TetaEglantina
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They have uploaded 3615 ancient DNA, why are you not disputing the rest? They obviously do background checks before uploading -
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To burn or not to burn: LBA/EIA Balkan case
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They have uploaded 3615 ancient DNA, why are you not disputing the rest? They obviously do background checks before uploading -
Southpaw
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It's highly likely messed up, from modern sample, it was mentioned by both Serbian and Croatian members. IDK from where exactly the I2a South Slavic has its origin but it was part of Slavic ethnogenesis from early on since it's the primary lineage of Southern Slavs and secondary lineage of Northern Slavs.
But early split of I2a-Din subclade might support something from more Central-Western Europe, probably somewhere in Poland among Lusatian Culture.
I don't think the presence of I2a among Romanians has anything to do with them being Dacians, since they are barely Dacian to begin with on Y-DNA and autosomal. They might have Dacian autosomal, say like 40-50%, but definitely culturally, Y-DNA-wise, autosomally they are not, they are different.
I think I2a-din could have been from a Dacian or even more likely Lusatian context, but nobody can really tell, because it starts from scratch. That's different for the E-V13 in Slavs, which while lower in frequency, has a much higher diversity and a starting point in early Slavs probably not even THAT far removed from the I2a-din position.
The special case about I2a-din is not that it was particularly Slavic or anything else, but that a single ancestor was extremely successful among Early Slavs, extremely successful. Because R-Z282 lineages which grew at the same time a similar rate had a much larger base, even Northern E-V13 seems to have had a much larger base.
Apparently the I2a-din clan became highly successful in early Slavic clans and spread like wildfire in a very short time, likely due to social dominance of some sort. It's not deeply rooted anywhere which is why we can all speculate and nobody can prove/disprove anything about its earlier origins. Could be really anything from Eastern Europe and the Carpathian sphere.
The special case about I2a-din is not that it was particularly Slavic or anything else, but that a single ancestor was extremely successful among Early Slavs, extremely successful. Because R-Z282 lineages which grew at the same time a similar rate had a much larger base, even Northern E-V13 seems to have had a much larger base.
Apparently the I2a-din clan became highly successful in early Slavic clans and spread like wildfire in a very short time, likely due to social dominance of some sort. It's not deeply rooted anywhere which is why we can all speculate and nobody can prove/disprove anything about its earlier origins. Could be really anything from Eastern Europe and the Carpathian sphere.
Southpaw
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That's not true, all northern Slavs have zero to none E-V13, Polish and Ukrainian people have on fringes of their southern borders where Balkan people like Vlachs migrated. Those E-V13 in Early Slavs are likely Byzantine priests, merchants, warriors.
No need to push agendas buddy.
Archetype0ne
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The mtdna of that sample is <500 years old, and I am 99% sure we are not dealing with time travel.
We don't know what dacians y dna is even. We also we don't know how dacians look autosomal
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Southpaw
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That's a no-brainer at the moment, the dominant was E-V13. It pops out nearby and in where Dacians lived, it was the in 99% of samples from Psenicevo which was a brother culture and southern spin-off of cultures which were ancestral to Dacians like Insula-Banului, Babadag and lastly Bassarab.
I agree with you but It would be nice to have evidence ( samples) so poeple like brumzi can shut up
Correct. But we know they weren't a Slavic population nor Para-Slavic hence I-Y3120, Slavic R1a-M417+ clades in today's Romanians reflect just that which is Slavic patrilineage.
@Riverman
I agree with Hawk. Not sure where you see any signficant meaning of E1b-V13 in early Slavs. Nor does I-CTS10228 in the grand scheme of things look very different from other major Slavic hgs. to be honest.
BTW the Stable Population structure paper had full fletched Sarmatian samples etc. Generally pops that moved over time to the fringes of the Roman Empire and succeeded in breakthroughs here and there during the early CE. If Dacians or those proper on what in medieval times was more or less Wallachia would have carried substantial Slavic Y DNA then some of that would have been redistributed during the Roman rule. From Western Europe to the Levant and that is not the case at all.
This is such a in your face pattern that totally refutes such claims.
I agree that dacians weren't Slavic or para slavic but a balkan population. Also Romanians don't a lot of r1a. Dorkymon from athrogenica opened a thread on halpogroup for Romanians. They did have alot of i2a but also j2a, r1b, and some ev13 but weirdly sucevea county ( Bukovina had zero ev13 but kinda high j2a)
Southpaw
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That's true, i am open to get proven wrong though, new papers will come out eventually and we will get a full-picture of everything. There is no running away from this.
TetaEglantina
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Then this should convince you?HV0a1 MTree
www.yfull.com
The mtdna of that sample is <500 years old, and I am 99% sure we are not dealing with time travel.
This doesn't make sense because cts10228 does not exist in modern Croatians, if it did would redefine the entire origin and tmrca of early Slavs as cts10228 predates Slavic expansion. The mtdna is obviously wrong
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TetaEglantina
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Because the Bastarnae were further north than Dacians so early Slavs mingled with the Bastarnae first (i-y3120) and later picked up e-v13 from Dacians
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Archetype0ne
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You can believe whatever you want to believe, just don't be a hypocrite. First it was "I will take yfulls word over yours", but now it is "yfull is obviously wrong". The choice is between a genetic test showing this clade is medieval at best, and a not even radicarbon dated skeleton. It's pretty simple really.
TetaEglantina
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It cannot be medieval as Croatians do not carry cts10228. If you want to claim they do it changes the entire Slavic origin and timeline. The mistake they have made is mtdna
E-V13 pops up in all early Medieval Slavic groups sampled and has a number of branches which are either fully or nearly fully Slavic. Its also so evenly spread, even if at a low level, that this can hardly be a coincidence. Some of the nearly fully Slavic branches started to diversify within the Slavic population (unless whole tribes were taken over later, which is always less likely) at a fairly early point in time not too far removed from I2a-din.
The most prominent is https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-L540/
discover.familytreedna.com
Even if it would have been Germanic early, it spread within the Slavic groups latest in the early historical period, before the Slavic expansion.
But that's just one out of many examples for a fairly early entry point of E-V13 into the early/Proto-Slavic population.
The main difference between E-L540 and I2a-din is that the latter entered the Slavic population a bit earlier and grew more rapidly, was even more successful. It could have been Balto-Slavic even, from a tribe which was taken over by the Slavs and being the solve survivor, but again nobody can say.
The situation is, interestingly, pretty similar for E-L540, because there is a huge gap between its expansion in the first century and the start of its expansion. For all we know both I2a-din and E-L540 could even have been part of the same population which was taken over by the early Slavs in the East, before the expansion to the West and South. Both look in a similar way "cut off", which would fit ideally with some sort of Eastern Celtic, Lusatian or Northern Dacian population.
The appearance of E-V13 is too consistent in most so far sampled Medieval Slavic population to be overlooked, just because the total frequency is lower - but stable nevertheless throughout the Slavic sphere.
The most prominent is https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-L540/
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Even if it would have been Germanic early, it spread within the Slavic groups latest in the early historical period, before the Slavic expansion.
But that's just one out of many examples for a fairly early entry point of E-V13 into the early/Proto-Slavic population.
The main difference between E-L540 and I2a-din is that the latter entered the Slavic population a bit earlier and grew more rapidly, was even more successful. It could have been Balto-Slavic even, from a tribe which was taken over by the Slavs and being the solve survivor, but again nobody can say.
The situation is, interestingly, pretty similar for E-L540, because there is a huge gap between its expansion in the first century and the start of its expansion. For all we know both I2a-din and E-L540 could even have been part of the same population which was taken over by the early Slavs in the East, before the expansion to the West and South. Both look in a similar way "cut off", which would fit ideally with some sort of Eastern Celtic, Lusatian or Northern Dacian population.
The appearance of E-V13 is too consistent in most so far sampled Medieval Slavic population to be overlooked, just because the total frequency is lower - but stable nevertheless throughout the Slavic sphere.
The only Illyrian groups so far that are majority J-L283 were mostly tribes in Croatia and Montenegro. And in Croatia you also had R-L2 non-Illyrian tribes. We'll see eventually what samples in Bosnia and Western Serbia looked like . But going in general by lineages there must of been a huge replacement or bottle neck when compared with most Balkan populations. I mean imagine all the J-L283, R1b and E-V13 clades these Balkan groups carried that do not even exist today.
Honestly I think that's a testing bias. I heard that its fairly common especially in Eastern Germany, in areas which got secondarily Germanised. The Krakauer sample was no exception. There are also some German branches with upstream Eastern European positioning.
So while I would myself call it Germano-Slavic at the moment, it is pretty obvious that it grew and peaked from a Slavic expansion around Poland-North Carpathians. And again, its just one of the most prominent examples, particularly important because of its isolated position, just like what I would expect from a very Northern E-V13 population, close to the zone I expect I2a-din to have come from too (South Eastern Poland).
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