Genetic study The Picenes and the Genetic Landscape of Central Adriatic Italy in the Iron Age.

[ihype02]

Anyways I doubt there is pure continuity in Northern Italians. So they might have receive some influence (not as high as 25% though) from Roman migrants and some Germanic admixture like 10% pulled them back in their place.

Besides Picentes are from central Italy and Etruscans and Latins had children too, we cannot exclude the Latin IA cluster entirely and use Picenes are the Golden Standard. Who knows maybe Etruscans and Latins were more numerous too.

 

[Vitruvius]

I was talking about modern Northern Italians obviously.

You really think Germanic ancestry in modern Northern Italian is zero?

Zero or close to it, yes. The autosomal DNA is making this pretty obvious at this stage. Italy was repopulated by Northern Italians, not lombards/germanics. You see it in the EMA torino/bardonecchia samples and also the late antiquity roman samples. The late antiquity samples from this study also have no Germans, but instead a couple northern Italians.

 

[Vitruvius]

Anyways I doubt there is pure continuity in Northern Italians. So they might have receive some influence (not as high as 25% though) from Roman migrants and some Germanic admixture like 10% pulled them back in their place.

Besides Picentes are from central Italy and Etruscans and Latins had children too, we cannot exclude the Latin IA cluster entirely and use Picenes are the Golden Standard. Who know that Etruscans and Latins were more numerous too.

The point is not that the Picenes themselves specifically dominated the Italian genepool. The point is that they are confirmation of what's more to come as we go further north. Northern Italy and the Picenes are going to overlap and this is becoming painfully obvious. They are on the border of Northern Italy.

 

[ihype02]

The point is not that the Picenes themselves specifically dominated the Italian genepool. The point is that they are confirmation of what's more to come as we go further north. Northern Italy and the Picenes are going to overlap and this is becoming painfully obvious. They are on the border of Northern Italy.

Maybe but I still stand by what I said, that Northern Italians went a little bit south with Rome and then get north with Longobards back to their place. I support some 70% continuity in Northern Italians.

 

[Vallicanus]

Zero or close to it, yes. The autosomal DNA is making this pretty obvious at this stage. Italy was repopulated by Northern Italians, not lombards/germanics. You see it in the EMA torino/bardonecchia samples and also the late antiquity roman samples. The late antiquity samples from this study also have no Germans, but instead a couple northern Italians.

My closest ancient match is R33 from Late Antiquity Rome (AD 500; 82 pc coverage) @ 0.02171452.

A very North-Italian-like sample.

 

[ihype02]

My closest ancient match is R33 from Late Antiquity Rome (AD 500; 82 pc coverage) @ 0.02171452.

A very North-Italian-like sample.

What is his y-dna?

 

[TetaEglantina]

Technically speaking, Serbia and Romania are part of the Balkans and were associated with the Urnfield culture.

Yes they became part of the Urnfield expansion but not Western Balkans which is more closely related to iron age Italy due to Cetina - that's why I brought it up

 

[TetaEglantina]

@

TaktikatEMalet​

There is 6.3% of I2 ydna in Picenes as per the 2019 atudy by Antonio ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,and he states migration happened as below

Where these I2 from central European lines or Sardinian?

 

[TetaEglantina]

Northern Italy has zero or near zero Germanic ancestry, just as Southern Italy has zero to near zero levantine ancestry. It's clearly showing continuity with northern Italics here. We now have the results of the Picenes and northern Illyrians which plainly overlap one another and modern Northern Italians. Raetics, adriatic etruscans, and the Veneti are going to look the same as they lie between these two points. I also hightly doubt golaseccian populations are going to be much different either.

Where did all the i1 and r-u106 come from that wasn't in Italy iron age?

 

[MOESAN]

Some almost identical modern results on principal PCA's can hide different stories. I doubt today Northern Italians would have 0% from Southern Italy, and 0% from Germanics and others. Some opposites inputs could produce a roughly similar effect (balance). I think today Northern Italy has inherited some light Celtic and Germanic input, not important but NOT NEAR 0%.
South-Central Italy inherited surely some visible input, as what can be seen on the Maciamo's map, even if we know that we may not confuse Y-Haplo's % and autosomes %.
But it's still possible that some seemingly Germanic admixture could be the result of non-Germanics input by other people whose auDNA making was less far from the Germanics one. Hard to be too be affirmative and precise without IBD's.

 

[Ghurier]

Where did all the i1 and r-u106 come from that wasn't in Italy iron age?

There is a significant coupling for I1 between Italy and Central Europe around Roman-times.
A part of these clades seems to have been imported during the Roman-era.
While indeed, some other got imported later with the Longobards (but the I1 signal of this migration is "weak", most likely the I1-fraction of the Longobards who entered Italy wasn't that important).

 

[Moja]

Non-Indo-European Etruscan samples are R1b and Indo-European Italic samples are J2.

 

[HereToLearn]

Non-Indo-European Etruscan samples are R1b and Indo-European Italic samples are J2.

That doesn't seem to be the case.

I'm not even considering the Etruscan results since we are looking only at 4 male individuals. Most Picenes from this study are R1b too (7 out of a grand total of 12...).

 

[Vitruvius]

Some almost identical modern results on principal PCA's can hide different stories. I doubt today Northern Italians would have 0% from Southern Italy, and 0% from Germanics and others. Some opposites inputs could produce a roughly similar effect (balance). I think today Northern Italy has inherited some light Celtic and Germanic input, not important but NOT NEAR 0%.
South-Central Italy inherited surely some visible input, as what can be seen on the Maciamo's map, even if we know that we may not confuse Y-Haplo's % and autosomes %.
But it's still possible that some seemingly Germanic admixture could be the result of non-Germanics input by other people whose auDNA making was less far from the Germanics one. Hard to be too be affirmative and precise without IBD's.

If you were right then we should be seeing German profiles all over late antiquity and the EMA, but I've yet to see any other than in the specifically Lombard associated Collegno burial (which was mixed Northern and southern European anyways). The Lombards were not demographically significant and they were subsumed into the general Italian genepool incredibly rapidly due to their demographic insignificance.

As for a southern Italian shift from the Roman era, I'm not ruling it out entirely, but it definitely couldn't have been large. If we use the Picenes as a proxy for the N. italic iron age then I would guess maybe around a 10% southward shift from aegean-like colonizing Italians of Roman Italy simply based off the PCA averages.

Where did all the i1 and r-u106 come from that wasn't in Italy iron age?

Let's not kid yourself to pretend you have any idea how much I1 was or wasn't in northern Italy during this time period. A lot of samples remain to be had.

 

[Viramund]

Non-Indo-European Etruscan samples are R1b and Indo-European Italic samples are J2.

Picenes were not even italics in the linguistic sense. And you can't generalise the special case of J2b-L283 as the same to other J2 subgroups because its really not, its a completely odd lineage in general. Plus, there are two J2-L283 etruscans and a sigbificant number of actual italIc aDna wich are R1b-M269. I mean dude can't you make a comment with actual foundations at least one single time?

 

[HereToLearn]

Let's not kid yourself to pretend you have any idea how much I1 was or wasn't in northern Italy during this time period.

Do you anticipate we could see unexpected results in terms of Y-DNA haplogroups given a sizeable Italic ancient DNA sample?

Picenes were not even italics in the linguistic sense.

What were they?

 

[Robotnick]

People keep talking about the supposed "Non-Italic" so-called "North Picene" language but... I think it's dubious at best based on this, you would think?

South Picene, which is a much more reliably attested language, is in-fact Italic. Hopefully this will clear up misinfo.

North Picene language - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

A 2021 study of the techniques used on the stone and other considerations claimed that all supposed North Picene inscriptions are forgeries created in the 19th century.[2] In a book-length analysis of North Picene texts, Belfiore, Sefano and Alessandro stated regarding the longest text: "On the whole, iconographic, paleographic, and technical features suggest that this stele is a forgery."[3] They came to the same conclusions about all other inscriptions considered to contain North Picene inscriptions.[4]

 

[Robotnick]

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but I think it'd be good to launch a crusade against any such notion that the "North Picene" language (as based on this seemingly recently debunked "corpus") even exists. I keep hearing it being brought up occasionally and I'm thinking it ought to be dispelled as a distraction at best.

 

[mount123]

Picenes were not even italics in the linguistic sense. And you can't generalise the special case of J2b-L283 as the same to other J2 subgroups because its really not, its a completely odd lineage in general. Plus, there are two J2-L283 etruscans and a sigbificant number of actual italIc aDna wich are R1b-M269. I mean dude can't you make a comment with actual foundations at least one single time?

You can't argue with these people. They'll always make such erroneous comments based on macrohaplogroups. Lumping haplogroups under some Paleolithic TMRCA whilst similary proposing a joint migration in the BA-IA Like imagine comparing J2b-L283 with the later arrival of say J2a-L24+ clades in Italy, pure BS.

 

[Moja]

That doesn't seem to be the case.

I'm not even considering the Etruscan results since we are looking only at 4 male individuals. Most Picenes from this study are R1b too (7 out of a grand total of 12...).

Three of four Etruscans are R1b but three Picenes are J2, this is the main difference between them.