Robotnick
Regular member
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- Ethnic group
- NW European
- Y-DNA haplogroup
- R-U152>Z56>S47...
- mtDNA haplogroup
- K1a
Thanks for starting this thread, Robotnick.
The Picenes where heavily colonised by Liburnians for over 500 years ( until 440BC ), places and towns like Martinscuro, Tronto and other townsThanks for starting this thread, Robotnick.
The abstract is indicating modern-like northern Italian genomes for the Picenes as they are detecting further balkan IA ancestry than what was found with the Etruscans, despite having "no major differences". This should come as no surprise. The IA Etruscans/IA latins very clearly form a cline with northern Italy, both ancient and modern. There are no major genetic differences between the two as the abstract states but the cline is obvious and real. The dating here is important too, as these samples are from the 8th-7th century BC, ergo, prior to any Gallic invasions. At bare minimum we should expect iron age Veneto, Istra, Friuli Venezia Giulia and the Etruscans of IA Emilia Romagna to bear the same type of profile. More probably you will see it widespread throughout all of northern Italy and the prealps as well.
In fact , "Gallic" cultures were found since the early iron age.Thanks for starting this thread, Robotnick.
The abstract is indicating modern-like northern Italian genomes for the Picenes as they are detecting further balkan IA ancestry than what was found with the Etruscans, despite having "no major differences". This should come as no surprise. The IA Etruscans/IA latins very clearly form a cline with northern Italy, both ancient and modern. There are no major genetic differences between the two as the abstract states but the cline is obvious and real. The dating here is important too, as these samples are from the 8th-7th century BC, ergo, prior to any Gallic invasions. At bare minimum we should expect iron age Veneto, Istra, Friuli Venezia Giulia and the Etruscans of IA Emilia Romagna to bear the same type of profile. More probably you will see it widespread throughout all of northern Italy and the prealps as well.
I sincerely doubt that the Balkan IA influences the abstract refers to is to be interpreted as an Aegean input, but rather as actual contact with Balkan populations. These contacts could also have happened even before the proto-italic tribes settled in Italy.The drift towards Balkan IA was cause by Eastern Med like DNA, probably Aegean, meaning Anatolian influences, as the Greeks only went to Italy after Dark Ages.
In fact , "Gallic" cultures were found since the early iron age.
Gollaseca and Cagrenate were both Celtics. I doubt any sort of Massive repopulation with Bellovesus invasion.
The area was already highly populated by Etruscan like civilizations on Po's Valley
"These goods show the existence of substantial relations between Como and Bologna and Etruria proper, in particular Vetulonia, and an ongoing socio-economic differentiation, stimulated by the intensification of long-distance traffic."
"The Como district played a secondary role in the leadership for the management of exchanges and relations with the Etruscan world, but closer ties were established with the Venetic people"
The drift towards Balkan IA was cause by Eastern Med like DNA, probably Aegean, meaning Anatolian influences, as the Greeks only went to Italy after Dark Ages.
Do you have any studies on this? I'd like to read of it if so. To me these people have been functionally of the same genetic background since the bronze age so it will be very difficult to tell with adna.The Picenes where heavily colonised by Liburnians for over 500 years ( until 440BC ), places and towns like Martinscuro, Tronto and other towns
Not at all. Central and Northern Italy will simply be a cline of northern BA balkan ancestry as I see it. Even the south will have some significant sums of it in tandem with increasing Aegean ancestry.Does it seem far-fetched that Osco-Umbrian populations in general already gained a bit of Balkan-like admixture before entrance into Italy? The Pannonian plain during the Bronze Age appeared to be something of a fusion zone between Eastern Bell Beaker L2 and Daco-Illyrian J2b-L283, R1b-Z2103 and the like. Further (hostile) waves of the latter could have eventually driven them out and prompted their migration into Italy by the LBA.
Not at all. Central and Northern Italy will simply be a cline of northern BA balkan ancestry as I see it. Even the south will have some significant sums of it in tandem with increasing Aegean ancestry.
Pannonia very clearly had a significant Caucasian ancestry pull transmitted from Anatolia during this time period, which is part of what separates the southern route of steppe migrations westward from more northerly corded ware types. I think it's fair to say that southern europe was experiencing two pulls of ancestry during this period: one from Anatolia and one from the steppe. Because of this we should expect other northern and central Italians to look the part.
Does it seem far-fetched that Osco-Umbrian populations in general already gained a bit of Balkan-like admixture before entrance into Italy? The Pannonian plain during the Bronze Age appeared to be something of a fusion zone between Eastern Bell Beaker L2 and Daco-Illyrian J2b-L283, R1b-Z2103 and the like. Further (hostile) waves of the latter could have eventually driven them out and prompted their migration into Italy by the LBA.
I have not looked closely into uniparental Balkan BA markers. Do you believe that the closest related population to the Central Italian IA population samples we have so far is coming from somewhere other than the Balkans BA based off autosomal dna? To me it appears evident that there were large scale Pannonian to Padanian migrations occurring during the bronze age. The Balkan profile is really the only one that fits this pattern as I see it. If steppe ancestry had come from virtually anywhere else it would show a noticably different cline and we also see a very close material culture sharing between the Carpathian Tell cultures and the Terramare culture of 1550BC - particularly regarding weaponry, in which there are particular sword types found only in Northern Italy and Hungary during this period and nowhere else. I see many more cultural contacts extending East rather than North in the Italian bronze age and this lines up with the autosomal results we have very neatly.In my opinion you are oversimplifying a lot based on a wrong reading of the genetic position of Northern Balkans BA.
Have you seen what are the most common uniparental markers in Northern Balkan BA?
As we know there are many Iron and Bronze Age samples missing from many areas of Italy, we can only wait for the studies to be published, but R1b P312, R1b P311, R1b U152, R1b U52-L2, G2a-L497... are hardly markers related to the Balkans.
Do you believe that the closest related population to the Central Italian IA population samples we have so far is coming from somewhere other than the Balkans BA based off autosomal dna? To me it appears evident that there were large scale Pannonian to Padanian migrations occurring during the bronze age. The Balkan profile is really the only one that fits this pattern as I see it. If steppe ancestry had come from virtually anywhere else it would show a noticably different cline and we also see a very close material culture sharing between the Carpathian Tell cultures and the Terramare culture of 1550BC - particularly regarding weaponry, in which there are particular sword types found only in Northern Italy and Hungary during this period and nowhere else. I see many more cultural contacts extending East rather than North in the Italian bronze age and this lines up with the autosomal results we have very neatly.
"Population discontinuity in northern Italy. Our Beaker Complex individual from Parma is slightly shifted towards populations with steppe ancestry in the PCA (Fig 1b). We tested for symmetry between BB_Italy_Par and Remedello_CA3 (Table S2), a culture preceding the Beaker Complex in northern Italy. Several steppe-like populations such as EHG (Z=4.6) or Yamnaya_Samara (Z=3.9) share more alleles with BB_Italy_Par than with Remedello_CA, indicating that our Italian Beaker Complex individual harbors a steppe-related ancestry component not present in the previous Remedello culture."
I think it is too early to be sure when the Balkan BA like profile came to Italy. Carpathian Urnfield refugees who fled to northern Italy in the 16th century BC due to the expansion of the Tumulus culture? Maybe so, but I don't know.I have not looked closely into uniparental Balkan BA markers. Do you believe that the closest related population to the Central Italian IA population samples we have so far is coming from somewhere other than the Balkans BA based off autosomal dna? To me it appears evident that there were large scale Pannonian to Padanian migrations occurring during the bronze age. The Balkan profile is really the only one that fits this pattern as I see it. If steppe ancestry had come from virtually anywhere else it would show a noticably different cline and we also see a very close material culture sharing between the Carpathian Tell cultures and the Terramare culture of 1550BC - particularly regarding weaponry, in which there are particular sword types found only in Northern Italy and Hungary during this period and nowhere else. I see many more cultural contacts extending East rather than North in the Italian bronze age and this lines up with the autosomal results we have very neatly.
The earliest protohistoric migrations into northern and some areas of central Italy that bring Steppe are most likely those of the Bell Beaker culture from Central Europe shortly before the 2000 a.C. This is supported both archaeologically and genetically. Just look at the Bell Beaker sample from Parma (I2478, 2195-1940 cal BCE see "The Beaker Phenomenon and the Genetic Transformation of Northwest Europe" by Olalde et al, 2107). He was R1b P312 (R1b1a1a2a1a2 ) and K1a2a, which is also, not coincidentally, one of the most common haplogroups found in the Etruscans and Latins (although the Latins analyzed are too few to draw conclusions).
Then later there may have been later migrations from the Danube/Pannonian area, it's very likely, especially in the final phase of the Bronze Age, but markers such as R1b P312, R1b P311, R1b U152, R1b U52-L2, G2a-L497 point to the Rhine valley as the area of formation.
Thank you for the support and what you said was very well spoken. I too, respect Pax but I have to agree that I think the Balkan origin is much more likely/dominant in the formation of the Northern/Central Italian genepool. I also agree that the Terramare collapse/protovillanovan spread was likely the birth of the Italian people as a culturally homogenized entity across the peninsula and also that the Terramare were at least one ethnic component of the sea peoples phenomenon and would go on to form the basis the Latins/Etrsucans centuries later.I respect Pax but, I agree with Vitruvius regarding this matter. Looking at Cardarelli et al 2020 and Cavazzuti et al 2022, it is clear. It certainly shows that there was a migration of Carpathian Unfield refugees in the early and middle Terramare period (approximately 1500-1450 BC). Emilian Terramare embraced Urn-cremation and developed during that period, and roughly 300 years later, climate change and population pressure caused 120,000 people(estimates of Cardarelli) to abandon their settlements and flee to the central and south, with a small number of them making their way into Mycenaean Greece and the Levant. (Of course, some remained in the area or moved to Frattesina.) I believe that, as well as being a Sea People, they were likely the fathers of the Roman and Etruscan civilizations and therefore may have played the most important role in the Mediterranean during the Late Bronze Age.