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Iosif Lazaridis: Proto-Indo-Europeans had dark hair, brown eyes, and an intermed‌iate skin tone

Moja said:
This thread is about Proto-Indo-Europeans who had dark hair, brown eyes, and an intermed‌iate skin tone and their CHG ancestry, I just said that other than Iran and some other Asian countries, this ancestry also exists in Greece and Italy in the south of Europe but it seems some people didn't like to believe these things, whether about phenotype/ancestry of Proto-Indo-Europeans or about the common genetic origin of some Iranians and Italians.
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CHG (and if it is true Iran_N has some relation to CHG) through Steppe ancestry exists in all Europeans, not just southern Europeans. As for the common genetic origin of some Iranians and Italians, it seems to me a quite more complex topic. Iran_N, untethered from Steppe, is considered a genetic signal that characterizes Eastern Mediterranean, not just Iran, and has been wandering around since the Bronze Age in the Aegean, the Balkans and the central Mediterranean.

The fact that most Proto-Indo-Europeans had dark hair, brown eyes, and an intermediate complexion does not surprise me at all. Probably the greater prevalence of blond hair and light eyes is due to something that happened in Corded Ware, and the current levels of blondism among northern Europeans are perhaps also due to sexual selection that has occurred in recent centuries (after all, some of the northern European populations are also much smaller numerically than the rest of Europeans). These are complex issues. In dealing with these topics the classic Apricity attitude should perhaps be avoided.
 
HereToLearn said:
It's not like "some people don't like to believe these things" (*boohoo* *sob sob*), the problem here is that these things are only in your self-hating brains, and you have been pathetically trying to establish some sort of very far-fetched connection based on Neolithic ancestral genetic components and phenotypes since the first post with cherry-picked pictures to try to confirm your crackpot theory about Proto-IE peoples.
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Self-hatred is better than racism, isn't it? I have never denied that the majority of Iranians have dark hair, brown eyes, and an intermed‌iate skin tone, but you clearly don't believe the same thing about Italians and for this reason you started to play with images, dark ones from Iran and light ones from Italy!

The fact is that the majority of Indo-Europeans in the north of India, Iran, Central Asia, Anatolia, Greece, Italy, Spain, ... have brown-black hair.

HairColor.jpg
 
I'm sad when I read some posts, not only from a same and unique person.
Almost no knowledge of the reality of phoenotypes, obsession of pigmentation as the principal trait (let's try identifying ethny when all people are dyed in black or blond), ignorance that a lot of eastern people are true 'europoids' spite they are classified as "blacks" (!?!) under the US feeling influence... without speak of cherrypicking by someones...
We are all of us admixtures even if the different dosis produced pops easily distinguishable at the auDNA level.
hat said, I'm still not convinced that we have not proved yet PIE at least (PIA apart) was formed by a south Caucasus pop. Personal thought, I stay in doubt.
 
MOESAN said:
Almost no knowledge of the reality of phoenotypes, obsession of pigmentation as the principal trait (let's try identifying ethny when all people are dyed in black or blond), ignorance that a lot of eastern people are true 'europoids' spite they are classified as "blacks" (!?!) under the US feeling influence... without speak of cherrypicking by someones...
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I may agree with your general point but I disagree that it's only (or mainly) a matter of pigmentation. It is Moja insisting on the importance of pigmentation. Although that is a factor too, I maintain that a significant majority of times it is easy to tell apart an Iranian from a Southern Europe thanks to facial traits alone. As simple as that, there's nothing racist in that. If anything it is racist to state the opposite IMHO.
 
thejoker said:
🤷‍♂️

So what? The dude below is from my region in Italy. He's not the average look of course, but good luck to find some 100% Ethnic Iranian like him..
Beside, that Iranian player's would be more at home in say Georgia or Ossetia than Europe and the differences between Italians and Iranians in phenotype are abyssal, despite Italians are for the majority brunette .
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Cipollini might belong to Napoléon branch of e1b1b1
there is a tester person with surname Cipollini under napoleon branch or extremely close to it

en.wikipedia.org

Mario Cipollini - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org


tester came from here:

en.wikipedia.org

Luni, Italy - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org

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p.s
whether the famous Cipollini is under e1b1b1 or the more typical r1b branches to north central italy
i do agree you will not find an iranian person who will look like
him he look European thats it
 
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HereToLearn said:
I may agree with your general point but I disagree that it's only (or mainly) a matter of pigmentation. It is Moja insisting on the importance of pigmentation. Although that is a factor too, I maintain that a significant majority of times it is easy to tell apart an Iranian from a Southern Europe thanks to facial traits alone. As simple as that, there's nothing racist in that. If anything it is racist to state the opposite IMHO.
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I actually played in your game about the importance of pigmentation, this is just your imagination that there is a big difference between Iranians and Italians, the famous Italian actress Monica Bellucci played as an Iranian woman in a movie and now the majority Iranians think she is an Iranian who lives in Italy. In some Iranian websites she has been compared to some Iranian actresses to prove this thing!

image-63-768x576.png
 
Moja said:
The fact is that the majority of Indo-Europeans in the north of India, Iran, Central Asia, Anatolia, Greece, Italy, Spain, ... have brown-black hair.

View attachment 17863
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So what.

Genetically there are big genetic differences between southern Europeans including Italians, and Iranians/North Indians.
Moja said:
I actually played in your game about the importance of pigmentation, this is just your imagination that there is a big difference between Iranians and Italians, the famous Italian actress Monica Bellucci played as an Iranian woman in a movie and now the majority Iranians think she is an Iranian who lives in Italy. In some Iranian websites she has been compared to some Iranian actresses to prove this thing!

image-63-768x576.png
Click to expand...
Can't you understand that Iran and Italy are very distant genetically as any PCA chart or autosomal study will tell you.
 
Vallicanus said:
So what.

Genetically there are big genetic differences between southern Europeans including Italians, and Iranians/North Indians.

Can't you understand that Iran and Italy are very distant genetically as any PCA chart or autosomal study will tell you.
Click to expand...

Haplogroup-J2.png


Haplogroup-R1b-L23.gif


Haplogroup_EGJT.gif


Haplogroup_G2a.png


Haplogroup-J1.png


Haplogroup-E-M123.gif


Haplogroup-T.png


Caucasian-admixture.png


mtDNA-U3-map.png
 
kingdavid said:
Cipollini might belong to Napoléon branch of e1b1b1
there is a tester person with surname Cipollini under napoleon branch or extremely close to it

en.wikipedia.org

Mario Cipollini - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org
Click to expand...

Kingdavid, Cipollini is a common surname in Tuscany (and in bordering regions). Unlikely all individuals surnamed Cipollini belong to the same branch and descend from the same ancestor.
 
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Pax Augusta said:
Kingdavid, did Mario Cipollini tested himself? Cipollini is a common surname in Tuscany (and in bordering regions). Unlikely all individuals surnamed Cipollini belong to the same branch and descend from the same ancestor.
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no,
you are correct just mention it as an option he could be e1b1b1
but he could belong to any other y haplogroup :)
I didn't knew Cipollini was that common surname there
anyway i still agree with a statement
that you wouldn't find an iranian who look like him
 
kingdavid said:
no,
you are correct just mention it as an option he could be e1b1b1
but he could belong to any other y haplogroup :)
I didn't knew it was that common surname there
anyway i still agree with a statement
that you wouldn't find an iranian who look like him
Click to expand...


I have realized now who the tester is, there is a private project in Lunigiana (a subregion split in half between Liguria and Tuscany) and to my knowledge no, Mario Cipollini is not related to the Cipollini who took the DNA test.
 
Pax Augusta said:
I have realized now who the tester is, there is a private project in Lunigiana (a subregion split in half between Liguria and Tuscany) and to my knowledge no, Mario Cipollini is not related to the Cipollini who took the DNA test.
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i understand
so it is likely the famous cipollini is under r1b>u152 ?
 
Vallicanus said:
My "Like" for this post was in error.

What do these maps prove? Autosomal DNA always beats Y DNA.

You can only see a corner of Iran in these maps in any case.
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This is Autosomal DNA:

Caucasian-admixture.png


Are there big genetic differences between Italy and Iran?
 
Big enough.

A lot of Iranians look like South Asians.

PCA charts clearly separate Italians and Iranians.

Enough now.

Go find another interest.
 
OP: What's your point with all of this? Is well known that Italians and Iranians are distant genetically something alreaady proven by genetics and history.
 
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