Question What is your Y-DNA ethnicity? - poll for Europeans

[Tomenable]

Which category does your Y-DNA haplogroup belong to?:

(if you are not sure please ask before voting in the poll)

1. Balto-Slavic: haplogroups R1a-M458, R1a-Z280, I2a1b-Y3120
2. Celtic-Italic-Beaker: R1b-P312 (except R1b-L238), R1b-PF7589, R1b-S1194
3. Germanic: I1-M253, R1b-U106, R1b-L238, R1a-L664, R1a-Z284, Q1a2b1-L527
4. Mediterranean: G, J2, J1, E1b, T, L, H, R2, R1b-PF7562, R1b-Z2103, R1b-V88
5. Mesolithic European: haplogroups I2a1a, I2a2, I2b, I2c, C1a2-V20
6. Uralic-Baltic: haplogroup N1c
7. Indo-Iranian: haplogroup R1a-Z93
8. Other (please explain)
9. Non-European haplogroup

 

[Tomenable]

My haplogroup is Celtic. R1b-L617 has been found in Gallic burials from Iron Age France.

 

[Riverman]

You should add Daco-Thracian (E-V13) and Illyrian (J-L283) because these two haplogroups are quite specific ethnolinguistically, with only a small minority which might turn out to be not assiociated with this ethnolinguistic groups. Actually these two haplogroups are among the most clearly ethnolinguistically assignable ones, because the respective groups were nearly fully dominated by them at the peak of their growth and historical presence.

 

[Tomenable]

Daco-Thracians and Illyrians were Mediterranean (Southern European) people.

 

[Riverman]

You differentiated other ethnolinguistic groups as well though and these haplogroups really grew with the respective ethnolinguistic groups, not as much before. Therefore the association is very strong. E-V13 and J-L283 were pretty negligible before growing with these ethnolinguistic groups in which they were the primary founders. But its your poll I guess

 

[Riverman]

But to expand on that: Indo-Iranian, Germanic etc. is not significantly older than Thracian and Illyrian. Like if you would use the same time line for all, this would mean you would have to name them EHG haplogroups vs. Mediterranean haplogroups. For later periods, E-V13, J-L283 etc. were definitely no longer just "Mediterranean", like in the Neolithic, but associated with specific ethnolinguistic groups, like Thracian and Illyrian. Which is why splitting things up that way makes no sense, since this are different time lines.
That's even more absurd for I2a1b-Y3120, which was probably not even Slavic up to about 500-300 BC, whereas E-V13 and J-L283 were Thracian/Illyrian respectively at least from around 2200 BC onwards.

Its even more clear for R1b-Z2103, which has specific associations with Illyrians, Armenians etc. too. Mediterranean is just not comparable to the other labels.

 

[Tomenable]

Mediterranean is not the same as "Neolithic Farmer", I just used this term to encompass all of specific Southern European ethnic groups. And to be honest I doubt that E-V13 was only Thracian and J-L283 only Illyrian, I think that there were also some other ethnic groups which carried these two lineages. On the other hand I2a1b-Y3120 expanded only with Slavs, there was no other ethnic group which proliferated this lineage.

 

[Riverman]

Nearly all E-V13 will be found in Thracians/Daco-Thracians in the earliest phase, this was an exclusive correlation. And single outliers which could have existed are present everywhere, like R-U106 and R-M458 Celts. Individual migrants don't count, obviously. But before 1200 BC in particular, more than 90 % E-V13 was for sure Thracian/Daco-Thracian. This will be one of the strongest correlations of ethnicity with haplogroups.
Bleeding into the neigbhours, kind of, due to intermarriage, slavery etc. is kind of irrelevant to the basic concept, since that's true for all.

 

[norbert]

I'm curious: how are R2, R1b-PF7562, R1b-Z2103 and R1b-V88 Mediterranean? Aren't R1b-PF7562 and R1b-Z2103 some of the earliest Yamnaya subclades? R1b-V88 was found among WHGs and R2 isn't even European. The Italic branches of R1b are more likely to be classified as Mediterranean which I disagree with but it makes more sense in comparison to the subclades you classified as such.

Not sure I'd view G, H2 and L as Mediterranean either. L is marginal and is H2. G was once a major line all across Europe. I guess J1 and J2 are the only haplogroups truly worthy of being considered Mediterranean.

 

[Riverman]

I'm curious: how are R2, R1b-PF7562, R1b-Z2103 and R1b-V88 Mediterranean? Aren't R1b-PF7562 and R1b-Z2103 some of the earliest Yamnaya subclades? R1b-V88 was found among WHGs and R2 isn't even European. The Italic branches of R1b are more likely to be classified as Mediterranean which I disagree with but it makes more sense in comparison to the subclades you classified as such.

Not sure I'd view G, H2 and L as Mediterranean either. L is marginal and is H2. G was once a major line all across Europe. I guess J1 and J2 are the only haplogroups truly worthy of being considered Mediterranean.

Agreed. Additionally, I would describe some main branches of J1 as Semitic and J-L283 as Illyrian.

 

[norbert]

Agreed. Additionally, I would describe some main branches of J1 as Semitic and J-L283 as Illyrian.

Broadly speaking, I thought J-L283 was associated with steppe ancestry. As for J1, it may dominare among Semitic-speaking peoples today but it is not a Semitic haplogroup per se. But that's a different topic. Haplogroup J shaped the history of the Mediterranean during the last 3000 years or so. If any haplogroup deserves to be called Mediterranean, it's J. However, considering the Greeks and Romans, the same can be said about R1b. It is only in the context of the Greeks that R1b-Z2103, or rather specific clades of it, can be considered Mediterranean. Other than that, R1b-Z2103 is an old Yamnaya/Balkanic haplogroup. And even E1b isn't really to be considered Mediterranean if we take the example of E-V13.

 

[Riverman]

Broadly speaking, I thought J-L283 was associated with steppe ancestry.

We still don't know 100 % whether J-L283 was transmitted directly from the steppe, but the current best model is in my opinion Caucasus -> steppe -> minor lineage in Yamnaya/Western steppe groups -> Vucedol -> Cetina/Pre-/Proto-Illyrians.

The point is however, that it was a totally insignificant lineage before growing with the Illyrians, just like I-M253 did with Proto-Germanics and E-V13 with Proto-Thracians.

E.g. E-Z283 is different, because it grew very early with Corded Ware/Western steppe groups and later diversified in different Indoeuropean groups. But those three (I-M253, E-V13, J-L283) in particular are really nearly completely associated with their respective main growing founder population, Germanics, Thracians and Illyrians respectively. They were insignificant before and would have never grown as much if not experiencing this ethnic-tribal expansion.

The same applies to the Semitic J1 lineages, which I think rather joined Afro-Asiatic groups dominated by E-M34, but these specific J1 Semitic lineages clearly grew and expanded with Semites, in a very close interaction. The situation is in my opinion comparable to the tandem of R-U106 and I-M253 in Germanics.

 

[Tomenable]

R2 and L exist among Sardinians (10 and 8 samples among 1204 from Francalacci 2013 study).

Aren't R1b-PF7562 and R1b-Z2103 some of the earliest Yamnaya subclades?

Yes but they migrated from the steppes directly into Mediterranean areas, without becoming part of CWC / Beaker cultures.

R1b-V88 was found among WHGs

Maybe I should have classified it as Mesolithic then. But didn't it become relatively numerous only among Neolithic farmers?

R1b-V88 is quite numerous among Sardinians today (29 samples among 1204 from Francalacci).

G was once a major line all across Europe.

Yes but it was a major line among Neolithic Farmers only. Today 131 Sardinians (out of 1204 from Francalacci study) have it.

And even E1b isn't really to be considered Mediterranean if we take the example of E-V13.

Among Sardinians 126 out of 1204 have E1b. E-V13 expanded in the Bronze Age but it has its origins in Neolithic population.

 

[norbert]

R2 and L exist among Sardinians (10 and 8 samples among 1204 from Francalacci 2013 study).

This is interesting. I'm aware of the presence of L in very low percentages since antiquity but R2 is puzzling unless it's related to the Roma and Sinti. Even though they're mostly H-M82, R2 has a solid presence among Roma and Sinti in Germany.

 

[thunorr]

Germanic.

 

[—BoNe—]

Distributing ethnicities based on the Y chromosome is a topic that can upset many people. Personally, I would categorize them as follows:

1–Hispanic: R1b-DF27

2–Italic: R1b-U152

3–Bretonic: R1b-L21

4–Germanic: R1b-U106 | I1-M253

5–Slavic: R1a-M417

6–Balkan: E-V13 | R1b-Z2109 | R1b-PF7563 | J2b-L283

7–Southern/Eastern Mediterranean: J1-P58 | E-M35

8–Anatolian/Caucasian: J2-M410 | G2-L89

9–Uralic: N1c-L729

10–Mesolithic: I2-P215 | R1b-V88 | C1-V20

11–Aryan: R1a-Z93

12–Siberian: Q1-L472

 

[thunorr]

5–Slavic: R1a-M417

Subclades downstream of R-M417 are seen in Scandinavia before Slavic languages are a thing (battle axe culture is almost uniformly R-Z284), so describing R-M417 as "Slavic" is just inaccurate.

 

[—BoNe—]

^^

This is exactly what I meant when I said that classifying Y chromosomes by ethnicity is a sensitive topic that can offend many people.

I’ll explain why I categorized them this way:

M417 has roughly 40 million males spread across Central Europe, Eastern Europe, and Russia, while Z284 represents only about 10% of that “Slavic” total.

I listed M417>Z93 separately because they easily exceed 160 million.

A 20% presence in Nordic countries is not the same as a 15% presence in India.

 

[thunorr]

^^

This is exactly what I meant when I said that classifying Y chromosomes by ethnicity is a sensitive topic that can offend many people.

I’ll explain why I categorized them this way:

M417 has roughly 40 million males spread across Central Europe, Eastern Europe, and Russia, while Z284 represents only about 10% of that “Slavic” total.

I listed M417>Z93 separately because they easily exceed 160 million.

A 20% presence in Nordic countries is not the same as a 15% presence in India.

It's better to split the clades downstream of R-M417 into each ethnicity rather than labeling all of R-M417 as "Slavic"