Eurogenes 100% Germans from South Brazil(Modern Age Similarity's Map)

[felipefanfarao]

The best friend of my girlfriend , mostly from Saarland, Hunsruck and some from Moselle/Low Alsatian. She has all recent ancestry from Cai's Valley, Rio Grande do Sul, Brasil, a region that was settle primarily by Hunsruck and Saarland, with several Moselle Rhine, Alsatians, Flemish Nordfrance, Luxembourg, Hesse and Nordrhine minorities.
They spoke a sort of German language called Hunsruckish Riograndisher, a Westmittelfranken dialect similar to Luxembourgish. She is pure catholic German, something uncommon among German-Descendants(At least after X generation// she is Z)here, cause Catholics usually married Old Stock Brazilians. Mostly Lutherans have mixed origins as well, but those without mixture are more common.

This one came from one Man related to the Taquari's Valley, a place that has a minor region called Teutonia-Vestfalia, colonized primarily by Westphalians, they also had a dialect called "Sapato de Pau", a sort of Westphalish or Plattdüüsk, as they called, very similar to Dutch Language, I can understand it with English + Minor Hochdeutsch knowledge.

Off course, mostly Germans here came from Rhine(Rhine Pfalz, Saarland, Hesse, Koln), Hither Pommern or Low Saxony(both minor groups but very important). However some colonies got different colonizers, some from Hungarian Swabians, others from Bohemia, Bavarians, Thuringian, Saschen,Ashkenazi Jews, etc.. all those groups were usually absorbed by Rhine-Derived speakers. Westphalian was uncommon and in that place they could survived unmixed(older generations).

 

[Friesday]

G25?
Also, alsatians are mostly french, genetically speaking.

Ashkenazi jewish are not germans, genetically speaking.

 

[Riverman]

G25?
Also, alsatians are mostly french, genetically speaking.

Ashkenazi jewish are not germans, genetically speaking.

No, Alsatians are not mostly French, they are pretty similar to South Western Germans and Swiss Germans. A bit French shifted, but mostly French would be way off.

Of course, if you compare them with Northern Germans, they are South-West shifted, more Celtic, but so are Rhenish Germans in general.

I have ancestry and matches from Hunsruck-Saarland-Alsace-Lorraine. They intermarried a lot, whereas marriages with French were, with the exception of some urban places, less common by comparison.

 

[Friesday]

No, Alsatians are not mostly French, they are pretty similar to South Western Germans and Swiss Germans. A bit French shifted, but mostly French would be way off.

Of course, if you compare them with Northern Germans, they are South-West shifted, more Celtic, but so are Rhenish Germans in general.

I have ancestry and matches from Hunsruck-Saarland-Alsace-Lorraine. They intermarried a lot, whereas marriages with French were, with the exception of some urban places, less common by comparison.

They are mainly French/Gaulish, that’s a fact.

https://image.noelshack.com/fichiers/2023/39/2/1695702660-alsacefrenchlikeadmixture.png

And they are even close to French on PCA.

Go read french genetic studies instead of spreading independentists false information, you are outdated.

Next.
*add to my ignore list*

 

[felipefanfarao]

G25?
Also, alsatians are mostly french, genetically speaking.

Ashkenazi jewish are not germans, genetically speaking.

Dear Friesday, I glad you understand:
Ashkenazi Germans were one group that went to Brazil, they were few but we should account as Germans since most of them born on Germany , as theirs families several times ago. Their language, Yiddish, was a variant of Upper German Dialects. You should notice that it doesn't mean they are ethnically Germans, but they spoke a sort of Germanic Language and born on Germany
Alsacians were Germans, if we consider ethnicity.
Both Moselle and Alsatians were German'Speakers and share their origins with Saarland and Baden. You should notice that official German Coords were a blend between several different states and Southern Germans were really similar to Northern France.
Those sort of comment sounds a bit antisemitic, trying to define Germans as a single ethnic group and Ashkenazi Germans as non Germans. Keep in mind that German wasn't a single ethnicity, if you want those sort of purity on mindset, I have no doubts that a Pomeranian and an Alamanic were closer to their neighbors than each other.
Even German wasn't a proper language, Upper Germans spoke a totally different language if we compare Low German Dialects, so your suggestions was really nonsense.
Ashkenazi Jews, as well as sorbs, were a minority found on Germany, Ashkenazi Spoke Yiddish, a sort of Germanic Language, so they could be consider a ethnicity found on Germany(since Middle Ages I should notice).
About Alsatians, I suggest you to learn more about Lotharingia(or Lorraine) history.
By all meaning, nobody said they (Ashkenazi)were Germans as ethnicity's but as a MIGRATION GROUP.

Even if you want to ignore that Alsatians were closer to German Speakers populations than French, you should notice that they are ethnically Germans, since they spoke a Germanic Language and ethnicity doesn't mean Genetic profile.

Ethnicity means Identity, Culture/Language and Family's Relationships, thus you incour on a error about concepts. Ethnicity doesn't mean ancestry or similarities estimated with Gaussian Coordinates, with Euclidean, Manhattan or Chebyshev distance- suggestion, those sort of concept couldn't been reduced as those simplistic view.

And , obviously, comments without relation with the focus of the post, since most of theirs origins came from Rhine(even none of them had a Ashkenazi ancestor, I simple mention)

 

[felipefanfarao]

No, Alsatians are not mostly French, they are pretty similar to South Western Germans and Swiss Germans. A bit French shifted, but mostly French would be way off.

Of course, if you compare them with Northern Germans, they are South-West shifted, more Celtic, but so are Rhenish Germans in general.

I have ancestry and matches from Hunsruck-Saarland-Alsace-Lorraine. They intermarried a lot, whereas marriages with French were, with the exception of some urban places, less common by comparison.

Saarland and Rhine Pfalz groups both had more similarities with French Nord, Wallon and Alsatian-Moselle than others Germans, even several Westphalians were close to Normandie and Northern France than East Germans.
The dude spoke like Germans were a single genetic group, Germans couldn't been consider even a Single Ethnical group, imagine about genetic.
Also, he should notice that Swiss Germans were close to Alsatians than any French Speaker.
But well, we know that ethnicity doesn't mean Genetic. Those sort of Misunderstood about concepts came from the Positivism views towards our society.

 

[felipesc500]

Using only Official Nordrhein-Westphalia samples(1 from Aachen, 1 Lippe, 2 Westphalia and 1 Koln), all unmixed westphalians. Also, i made some from Central-West Germans using dendogram and others(art) as a mix different germanic averages for getting intermediate profiles(like Oberbayern with Tyrol+Mittelfranken or Rhine-Hunsruck and Saarland). I have to say that simulated profiles were really close to official ones, if they were made with K36 and each individual simulated alone(not the average simulated).

 

[felipesc500]

Official Moselle, keep in mind that Vosges reference is n=1 so not too accurate at all.

 

[felipesc500]

Schwaben as even close to Upper Alsatian, imo cause they are more southern than Baden-Rhine

Baden-Alsatian seems to be even northern like than Wurttemberg(more Swiss profile)

 

[felipesc500]

Mine(without 6% native american)

Keep in mind that i cant remove all, so 0.4 or something like it might happen.
Chebyshev:

 

[felipesc500]

Without Ashkenazi and Native, i m only 1/18 German and 1/16 + 1/32 French,1/2 Venetian(mostly Belluno and cimbrian), 1/18+1/32 Iberian. Just for compare.

Fully rhine german girl that i said before(simulated coords so more closer than real ones). Seems more Alsatian like

 

[felipesc500]

Could be from Simulated base, but imo it came from Jewish like ancestry(or some individual variation, higher EEF)

 

[Riverman]

Northern French have, quite obviously, high German(ic) and Northern Celtic ancestry too. But that doesn't make Western Germans less German, because they represent the main German component overall, which is simply not 100 % Scandinavian.
If you want to trace old German ancestry in the East, the Western German profile and ancestry is the main tracer. Same for Brazil as you can see.

 

[Riverman]

They are mainly French/Gaulish, that’s a fact.

https://image.noelshack.com/fichiers/2023/39/2/1695702660-alsacefrenchlikeadmixture.png

And they are even close to French on PCA.

Go read french genetic studies instead of spreading independentists false information, you are outdated.

Next.
*add to my ignore list*

You have to compare them with other West Germans and the general similarity to Gauls is artificial, broad similarity and not actual ancestry, since they have significant Germanic ancestry, which can be proven both on autosomal and uniparental grounds.

The very idea that Alsatians are near 100 percent Gaulish is just arbitrary.

 

[felipefanfarao]

You have to compare them with other West Germans and the general similarity to Gauls is artificial, broad similarity and not actual ancestry, since they have significant Germanic ancestry, which can be proven both on autosomal and uniparental grounds.

The very idea that Alsatians are near 100 percent Gaulish is just arbitrary.

Yes, I should add just that Belgae Celts already had Para-Germanic origins, at least, what researches called Nordwestblock, some scholars say that Belgae Celts were Celto-Germanic.
We don't know, but those sort of assumption are nonsense, Celts and Germanics were both diverse population, a Wesser Rhine German might been closer to a Alsatian than Danish. Also, one of those "Alsatian Celts" IA2 had a clearly Norse profile, clustering with Jutland, probably an earlier migrate from Germanic .
Keep in mind that Alpine Celts(original Celts) were much southwestern euro than Belgae Celts and Northern France/Alsatian.

 

[felipefanfarao]

As I proved before, even Westphalia-Nordrhein matches Normandie before Niedersaschen, off course we need more samples but no doubts Germanized Northeastern French(Nord, Normandie, Pas de Calais, Meuse, Alsatian, Moselle) were closer to Rhine.
It's just history, West Frankie and East Frankia were both settled by Frankish, Rhine Wesser tribes, highly admixture with Celtic from Belgae Strain and others Ghost Nordwestblock influences.
LoL assuming that German means Scandinavian Iron Age sounds simplistic view. We don't know which profile those called Jastorf, ancestor's of Continental Germanic strain had, but shouldn't been to distance from Nordwestblock itself(with several Tumulus and Urnfield contact, meaning Proto Celtic influence), thus we can't properly split Continental Germanic and Celt using simplistic models.

And German = / = Proto-Germanic , neither Germanic Tribes were "unmixed Germanics", imagine modern Days.
If we went to those sort of assumption we can't consider Ireland Celtic, if we consider that Celtic Culture went to British Islands only as a elite warrior class, from Alpine's Zone.
Ethnicity doesn't mean Supposed Genetic Similarities.

 

[felipefanfarao]

Using some of the best Hay's Maps. I know that it shows YDNA , but its simple to view how Italo-Celtic lineages were common among Western/Southwestern Germans(I think its even more common).

Among the Germanic lineages.
Off course it doesn't mean directly autosomal estimation, but keep in mind that Alsatian and Southwestern/Saarland have the same profile of Y-DNA. Considering Alpine Celts clustering with Southwestern Euro Regions , I have no doubts that Even Wurttemberg might been less Germanic Like than Alsatian.

 

[Riverman]

The situation is pretty similar with Italians actually, because even if South Western Germans score close to the regional Celtic population from the Iron Age, the make up of the population is different, since the ancients had neither the Germanic, nor the Romance-Balkan input at the same level as the moderns do. Basically things got balanced out by both Northern and Southern input, to end up on a similar spot, rather than regional continuity (only).

Of course, there is a great deal of regional continuity in the South West of Germany, but its nowhere as close as some superficial G25 models might suggest. Again, uniparentals alone prove that.

Also, regular German means by default Germanic with lots of Celtic and a bit of Romance-Balkan admixture, that's nothing specific to Alsatians.

The core of the modern German ethnicity is Frankish, also Swabian and Bavarian. If you combine those three Germanic formations of the Early Medieval period, you cover a lot of the old German core. Those people got Christians fairly on, which resulted in even more mixture with neighbouring or local non-Germanic Christians.

The main exception being the Saxons, because they stayed heathens and had closer ties to the Northern Germanics (Pre-Viking). They being incorporated by the Franks conquering and subduing them. We know from the ancient DNA that the Franks settled Southern-shifted colonists in Saxon territory, but there, in the Saxon and Frisian zone, a more Northern Germanic profile could be better preserved. The bulk of the rest is pretty similar and this applies to the Swabian-Alemannic Alsatians too. The Alemannic-Swabian is one of the most Southern shifted German groups in general, that is not just restricted to the Alsatians:

Franconian-Frankish dialects:

Alemannic and Swabian had the most contacts to Gallo-Roman, Celtic and Romance people. But again, that's not just typical for Alsatians, but for this whole old German core, from which Germans as a nation emerged.

 

[felipefanfarao]

The situation is pretty similar with Italians actually, because even if South Western Germans score close to the regional Celtic population from the Iron Age, the make up of the population is different, since the ancients had neither the Germanic, nor the Romance-Balkan input at the same level as the moderns do. Basically things got balanced out by both Northern and Southern input, to end up on a similar spot, rather than regional continuity (only).

Of course, there is a great deal of regional continuity in the South West of Germany, but its nowhere as close as some superficial G25 models might suggest. Again, uniparentals alone prove that.

Also, regular German means by default Germanic with lots of Celtic and a bit of Romance-Balkan admixture, that's nothing specific to Alsatians.

The core of the modern German ethnicity is Frankish, also Swabian and Bavarian. If you combine those three Germanic formations of the Early Medieval period, you cover a lot of the old German core. Those people got Christians fairly on, which resulted in even more mixture with neighbouring or local non-Germanic Christians.

The main exception being the Saxons, because they stayed heathens and had closer ties to the Northern Germanics (Pre-Viking). They being incorporated by the Franks conquering and subduing them. We know from the ancient DNA that the Franks settled Southern-shifted colonists in Saxon territory, but there, in the Saxon and Frisian zone, a more Northern Germanic profile could be better preserved. The bulk of the rest is pretty similar and this applies to the Swabian-Alemannic Alsatians too. The Alemannic-Swabian is one of the most Southern shifted German groups in general, that is not just restricted to the Alsatians:

Franconian-Frankish dialects:

Alemannic and Swabian had the most contacts to Gallo-Roman, Celtic and Romance people. But again, that's not just typical for Alsatians, but for this whole old German core, from which Germans as a nation emerged.

I totally agree.
The Y-DNA Middle Eastern like from Imperial Romans suggest some minor Imperial input.
Here we speak a variant of Frankish Dialects, Hunsruckish. I have several ancestor's from Saarland and Hunsruck, as well as some from Moselle and Nord France(Flemish), those from Moselle married those from Hunsruck. I have only 1/16 from Rhine+ 1/16 from West Prussia+1/16 Ashkenazi, but some people, like this girl, are almost Rhine derived. Off course, a minority, but most Germans that went to Southern Brazil came from Hunsruck, Saarland and Hesse.
The Westphalian ones matches with Scandinavians, IMO he should has some Niedersaschen admixture.
Westphalians were closer to Rhine and Netherlands than Hanover/Hamburg, really interesting, probably Slavic influence.
Simulated Coords can't give the best reference, and could explain why the Rhine-Derived Girl and The "suppose " Westphalian got a different(from what I expected) profile, even k36 being the better option.

 

[felipefanfarao]

My Early middle ages similarities map(without native American influence/5-7%), off course we should expect different profiles from Southern Germans , but as you could notice I m not very Germanic and match the Early Germans from Middle Ages.
Being German = / = Germanic, Bavarians and Allamanic(Elba Germanics) as well as Wesser Rhine both had more Celtic influence than we previously expect