The Celts of Iberia

[spongetaro]

That, no offense, is nonsense. Onomastic evidence clearly shows that Aquitanian was related to Basque (if not the same as Old Basque). With the Iberians, there's plenty of inscriptions (in three different writing systems), as well as Onomastic evidence which clearly shows that Iberian was a non-Indo-European language which *may* have had a relationship of some sort with Basque. With Ligurian, we unfortunately have only onomastic evidence, which suggests that Ligurian was an Indo-European language, related with the Celtic language family but not part of it.

So do you agree that Celtic culture in Iberia is not so overwhelming

 

[Carlitos]

In short, the language has been practiced on the history of Spain such an operation which took place on the Mycenaean civilization. In the case of Mycenae, the majority opinion was that it was an oriental civilization and Pelasgians, inherited perhaps from Crete, until it was discovered that his writing, the "Linear B", was actually an archaic form of Greek, Mycenaean era Indo-European. Similarly, research on the written testimonies of the first Spain has led to the conclusion that our peninsula was, above all, Celtic, significantly lessening the weight of Iberian and cercanoriental component. Of course, there remain several problems: first, to know the exact origin of Tartessos and civilization, to confirm the evidence of Celtic presence in it, the second, to elucidate the origin and extent of the Iberians, whether it was a village perhaps native-heir of the megalithic civilization, or if came from North Africa and the third, solving the problem of the Basques, who are still unaware of whether they belong to the Iberian area or if they came to Spain with the first waves of migration, for Finally, reveal the identity of some other Indo-European groups that likely arrived in Spain in prehistoric times and are still wrapped in a cloud of mystery. But what is beyond question is that the early history of Spain should be written again.

http://www.centrostudilaruna.it/celtiberosceltas.html

 

[Taranis]

So do you agree that Celtic culture in Iberia is not so overwhelming

No. I admit that it's confusing because the term "Iberian" has become used to use for the entire penninsula, in so far I suggest that to avoid confusion I will use the ancient Latin name, "Hispania", for the entire penninsula for the rest of this post: by "Iberian", I mean the ethnic group that inhabited eastern parts of the Hispanian penninsula which corresponds with an area stretching from modern Catalonia to eastern Andalusia.

EDIT: in the other thread, I posted a map that roughly describes the linguistic situation in Western Europe in Antiquity...

 

[Carlitos]

This is not to be overwhelming or not, it is real, but I think that when the Spanish specialists in the field rewrite the history of Spain, they care somewhat strange view of a Frenchman who for socioeconomic reasons denies historical reality of their neighbor, I think the specialists do not contemplate the beliefs of that neighbor envious and deified.

 

[spongetaro]

LOL if you had read my previous post I was saying that even in the case of Gaul, there is no evidence of the celticity of some regions like Liguria and Aquitania. Our celtic past is mainly known through Roman and Greek authors but to what extent can we trust them ?
For example Diodorus of Sicile spoke about a Ligurian Empire before the arrival of Celts in Gaul, such assertion is doubtful when it comes to archeological evidences

 

[spongetaro]

EDIT: in the other thread, I posted a map that roughly describes the linguistic situation in Western Europe in Antiquity...

As for Sardinian language, the linguist Michel Morvan has found some equivalent in the vocabulary with Basque that I posted on the haplogroup and language thread

 

[Taranis]

LOL if you had read my previous post I was saying that even in the case of Gaul, there is no evidence of the celticity of some regions like Liguria and Aquitania. Our celtic past is mainly known through Roman and Greek authors but to what extent can we trust them ?
For example Diodorus of Sicile spoke about a Ligurian Empire before the arrival of Celts in Gaul, such assertion is doubtful when it comes to archeological evidences

I agree about Liguria, but I have to partially disagree about Aquitania. First off, there's the definition of the region:

- In "Bello Gallico", Caesar drew the line between Gallia Celtica and Gallia Aquitania at the Garonne.

- The later Roman province of Gallia Aquitania was expanded to include a considerable slice of land north of the Garrone up to the Loire. This was clearly a Gaulish-speaking area, inhabited by tribes like the Santones, Pictones and Bituriges.

- Furthermore, there were Gaulish tribes in Aquitania (I should say, "Aquitanian proper", but they clearly had settled there recently because of onomastic evidence.

 

[Wilhelm]

So do you agree that Celtic culture in Iberia is not so overwhelming

Quite the contrary. The celtic culture and language in Iberia was the majority :

 

[Carlitos]

The French based the denial of celticity of Spain that is not Celtic Aquitaine and its proximity to Spain deduce that even more reason Spain can not be Celtic.

 

[Grizzly]

Sorry guy, the accumulated evidence clearly shows a very high and long enduring level of Celticity in Iberia. The sources confirming such are far too numerous to mention here fully. Start with the ancient Greeks and then go on to Cunliffe and many others. Time for you to pursue a reality check.

You can put the same arguments and authors (E-Ketloi-Cunliffe-Renfrew...), it won't give you right. We have already discussed about it. Time for you to pursue a reality check.

 

[Grizzly]

Nordic fantasies? ...and referencing an off-the-wall Eupedia poster who doesn't believe in genetic science

I believe in genetic science. But I don't link it with cultural features (Celtic, Germanic...) and genetics. It is simply "off the wall".

and denies what is exceedingly obvious to any person with basic intelligence...

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/intelligence

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/phantasm

 

[Grizzly]

we are largely of celtic ancestry

Btw that grizzly idiot doesn't believe in science nor historians, he is only a desperate troll like you. Now go back to your cave.

The wilhelm idiot and nordic-wannabe has received several historical and scientifical sources . He ignores it because they probably break his parallel world.

 

[Grizzly]

It's as traditional NW Spanish as you can get. There are similarities with respect to folk music between regions along the Atlantic Facade but it's ridiculous to suggest, as some do, that everything is "Irish music", whatever that means.

More exactly NW Spanish borrow from Irish folklore, he he...

 

[Grizzly]

Iberia actually is third highest in Celtic place names. You should read Cunliffe, Koch, Wodtko, the University of Wales and University of Wisconsin research papers to begin...I can keep going if you like.

Yes, E-Keltoi, we know.
BTW, "place names" doesn't mean Celtic settlements. See the hundreds or thousands of Germanic place names in France.

 

[Grizzly]

hmm..What do you mean ? There are more than 200 inscriptions in Celtiberian, a pure celtic langauge, and is related with Goidelic (Q-Celtic) , add this to the fact that only celtiberians made about 40% of the Peninsula population (calculation made in a study previously posted here), you can get an image on the impact of Celts in Iberia.

Already answered. See the latin texts in medieval Europe or also the Runes.

 

[Grizzly]

The evidence of Celtic culture in Iberia is overwhelming

It is exactly the contrary : it is a controversy, showing that the Celts were a minority in Iberia.

 

[Grizzly]

With Ligurian, we unfortunately have only onomastic evidence, which suggests that Ligurian was an Indo-European language, related with the Celtic language family but not part of it.

No, onomastic does not help. See the Germanic places names in France (a lot of Germanic anthroponyms as well in the actual surnames as the places names).

 

[Grizzly]

In "Bello Gallico", Caesar drew the line between Gallia Celtica and Gallia Aquitania at the Garonne.

This seem to be the only cultural roman definition of the region. The others are administrative descriptions.

Furthermore, there were Gaulish tribes in Aquitania (I should say, "Aquitanian proper", but they clearly had settled there recently because of onomastic evidence.

Yes, and this is probably the same schema in Iberia : settlement but minority, like the Germanics will do in France later.

 

[Carlitos]

Curiously, a Frenchman will study the history of Spain in relation to how French history has been, is the epitome of chauvinism.

 

[Wilhelm]

The wilhelm idiot and nordic-wannabe has received several historical and scientifical sources . He ignores it because they probably break his parallel world.

Celts were not nordic.

More exactly NW Spanish borrow from Irish folklore, he he...

Our folklore is not irish.

Yes, E-Keltoi, we know.
BTW, "place names" doesn't mean Celtic settlements. See the hundreds or thousands of Germanic place names in France.

There were germanic settlements in France actually. The Franks, the Goths, the Vikings, and so on.

It is exactly the contrary : it is a controversy, showing that the Celts were a minority in Iberia.

No. See the study posted before : celtiberians were about 40% of the population. And that's just the celtiberians. Add now all the other celtic-speaking areas.