The Celts of Iberia

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It surfaces much more in haplogroups. Haplogroups are simply indicators of ancient migratory influences and do not reflect full heredity. What counts for true ancestry is autosomal DNA. In all autosomal tests, Spaniards show minimal Berber affinities (~ 3%) and the Portuguese and NW Spaniards slightly more (5-6%). The majority of population geneticists now believe that EM81 in Western Europe essentially came from Mesolithic and Neolithic Berber migrations and are not the result of Muslim invasions.

See the DODECAD project results for a base study.
There are actually 4 NW Iberians (galicians, north Portuguese) at Dodecad Project and their average north-african is 2.9 %, one of them has 0.2% which is what other west-europeans have. The spanish average is currently 2%.

As for the E-M81 the Iberian average is about 4/5%, while in France is around 3% :

"E-M81 is also found in France,[2] 2.70 % (15/555) overall with frequencies surpassing 5% in Auvergne (5/89) and Île-de-France (5/91),[34]

Cruciani et al. 2004 :
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1181964/?tool=pmcentrez
 
BTW, Iberia has the third highest level of Celtic toponyms in Europe, behind France and parts of the British Isles. Also, some of the largest remains of Celtic hill fort communities are found in N. Portugal and Galicia / Galiza. The evidence of Celticity is very abundant in Iberia.
 
The now called Celtic peoples only speak a Celtic language, which must have been a trade language, but there was no massive arrival of Celts either in Ireland or elsewhere. Of course the Atlantic peoples are genetically related, but only because we are the last Proto-Europeans. The Atlantic people were here before the arrival of Celts, Romans, Sueves, Alans and West Goths. http://www.asturianus.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=171


I totally agree with you. And the fact that highest frequencies of R1b in the Iberian peninsula occur in the least Indo European areas (Iberia, Basque country) just show how unrelated haplogroup and Languages can be.

To me, the real Celtic culture area ends in eastern France
 
There are actually 4 NW Iberians (galicians, north Portuguese) at Dodecad Project and their average north-african is 2.9 %, one of them has 0.2% which is what other west-europeans have. The spanish average is currently 2%.

As for the E-M81 the Iberian average is about 4/5%, while in France is around 3% :

"E-M81 is also found in France,[2] 2.70 % (15/555) overall with frequencies surpassing 5% in Auvergne (5/89) and Île-de-France (5/91),[34]

Cruciani et al. 2004 :
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1181964/?tool=pmcentrez

Thanks. The NA autosomal figures are actually lower than measured previously.
 
The majority of population geneticists now believe that EM81 in Western Europe essentially came from Mesolithic and Neolithic Berber migrations and are not the result of Muslim invasions.

I never mentioned any Muslim invasion but as you mentioned the Germanic influence (which is minimal even in France) I thought that you might also mention the African one (Mesolithic or not)
 
I never mentioned any Muslim invasion but as you mentioned the Germanic influence (which is minimal even in France) I thought that you might also mention the African one (Mesolithic or not)
It's not true that germanic influence in France is minimal. Some French people cluster with Germans in autosomal plots. It depends on the area of ancestry, as France is very heteregenous.
 
I never mentioned any Muslim invasion but as you mentioned the Germanic influence (which is minimal even in France) I thought that you might also mention the African one (Mesolithic or not)

Fine, no problem.
 
I totally agree with you. And the fact that highest frequencies of R1b in the Iberian peninsula occur in the least Indo European areas (Iberia, Basque country) just show how unrelated haplogroup and Languages can be.

To me, the real Celtic culture area ends in eastern France

Well, look at the R1b subclades. The Basques in partilcular have fairly unique principle subclades (R1b1b2a1b1 and R1b1b2a1b2) that differentiate them from the Celts, who appear to have included a larger variety of R1b subclades. "The Basques are R1b too, and at higher concentrations!" is not a good argument against other Iberians being Celtic...
 
I totally agree with you. And the fact that highest frequencies of R1b in the Iberian peninsula occur in the least Indo European areas (Iberia, Basque country) just show how unrelated haplogroup and Languages can be.

To me, the real Celtic culture area ends in eastern France

The consensus among Celtic scholars is that Celtic culture hardly ended in Eastern France. The body of research on that is quite substantial.
 
Spaniards are not Celts. They are mostly arabs, they were invaded by arabs and moors :D
You mean like this, which is well known to have happened to the other "Celts" you want to suck up to so desperately, thanks to the late Roman multi-ethnic armies that conquered Britain, clueless "Latino":

"The Notitia Imperii shows us that bodies of Syrians, Cilicians, Spaniards, Moors, Thracians, Dalmatians, Frisians, &c., formed the military colonists of the stations in Britain; and when even the emperors themselves were often not of Italian birth, and the most trusted officers and governors provincials or even barbarians, we have no reason to suppose that any notable proportion of genuine Roman blood found its way to this country..." - John Beddoe, "The Races of Britain", page 31.

"We find Thracians at Maglona (Machynlleth) and Moors at Aballaba (Appleby); elsewhere Batavians, Dalmatians, Spaniards, and even Syrian and Taifalic cavalry..." - Robert Owen, "The Kymry: their origin, history, and international relations", page 68.
 
"We know that there was no homogenous body of soldiery in Britain.The legions contained Syrians, Cilicians, Spaniards, Moors, Thracians, Dalmatians, Frisians, etc., and this fact seems to be a clear proof of the growing paucity of Roman citizens in Italy and the provinces." -
Charles McLean Andrews, "The old English manor: a study in English economic history", page 35.
 

"In Britain there were stationed troops from Belgium, Gaul, Germany, Switzerland, Spain, Portugal, Bavaria, Dacia, Macedonia, Cilicia, and Thrace; cohorts of boatmen from the Tigris, the Danube and the Euphrates; Syrians, Dalmatians, Arabs, and Moors from the North of Africa." - James Charles Wall, "The first Christians of Britain", page 17.


"Syrian elements have been recorded in Roman army camps in Europe, particularly along the Danube frontier, where the Syrian cults of Aziz, Hadad and al-Uzza are known. On the British frontier, shrines to the Syrian Jupiter Dolichenus have been found at Caerleon, and shrines to Phoenician Astarte and Melqart have been found at Corbridge and Jupiter Heliopolitanus at Magnae, both near Hadrian's Wall. Near the end of the wall, at South Shields, a Palmyrene funerary memorial has been found associated with the Syrian community in Northumberland (plate 147). The ancient name of the South Shields fort was Arbeia, a corruption of 'Arabs' (Plate 148), and the control of the river traffic at the mouth of the Tyne at that time was in the hands of an Arab community known as the 'Tigris boatmen'." - Warwick Ball, "Rome in the East: the transformation of an empire", page 398.


"Collingwood's purpose is to ramify and complicate the folk- history out all recognition, and in doing so to acknowledge the necessary truth in the heresy (never more shocking than to twenty- first-century ears) that imperialism is everywhere and inevitable in history and that the Roman incursion at least brought many and (as they say) multicultural benefits to the varied Celtic tribes living in Britain when the soldiers of empire, recruited from Gaul, Spain, Tuscany, Lombardy, Syria, North Africa, arrived to put in train the efficient work of colonisation." - Fred Inglis, "History man: the life of R. G. Collingwood", Princeton University Press, 2009. Page 148.
 
"At the same time, Rome offered extraordinary opportunities for upward mobility, even to distant regions. One remarkable story of this kind is told by an inscription found in the tiny North African town of Tiddis (now in Algeria), describing the life of the second or third son of a local Berber landowner. This boy, who became known as Quintus Lollius Urbicus, left North Africa for Asia, Judea, the Danube, and the lower Rhine, rising steadily through the imperial ranks. Eventually he became governor of Britain, where he led imperial troops into Scotland, expanding the empire's borders." - Amy Chua, "Day of Empire: How Hyperpowers Rise to Global Dominance--and Why They Fall", pp. 40-41
 
"An altar inscription tells us that one of these Moorish units, the numerus Maurorum Aurelianorum, was in Britain from the third to the fourth century AD. They were based at the fort of Aballava (Burgh-by-Sands) at the western end of Hadrian's Wall, and were probably brought over by the Emperor Septimius Severus (reigned AD 193-211), himself a North African."

http://www.britishmuseum.org/explor...ects/pe/b/bronze_figurine_of_a_moorish_c.aspx


"Soldiers from distant provinces were not recruited directly, but arrived as transfers resulting from troop-movements in times of crisis. Two main episodes can be recognised in Britain: in c ad 149/150, north Africans were probably brought back with British units returning from Antoninus Pius’ Mauretanian war, and are evidenced on the Antonine Wall, and at Chester, Holt, and Bowness-on-Solway. These are the men who were probably formed into the Burgh-by-Sands unit. In 208, the Emperor Severus brought detachments from the north African legion, III Augusta, for his campaigns in northern Britain (evidenced massively at York, and also at Caerleon, Hadrian’s Wall, in Scotland and the north; men who returned are epigraphically attested in north Africa)."

http://www.britarch.ac.uk/ba/ba78/letters.shtml


Gee, I always thought that the reason why the majority of Brits are not "Nordics" (like the Scandinavians are), or red-heads and blonds (like you stupidly think they are), was because they have a strong native pre-Indo-European component (as most British anthropologists and ethnologists themselves acknowledged since way back in the 19th century), but now following your retarded "logic" that a foreign invading minority from historical times somehow turns most of the natives into the same people as these invaders it seems clear to me that lots of Britons must really be "Arabs", "Moors" and "Anatolians", :LOL: Get a clue, clown.
 
Well, look at the R1b subclades. The Basques in partilcular have fairly unique principle subclades (R1b1b2a1b1 and R1b1b2a1b2) that differentiate them from the Celts, who appear to have included a larger variety of R1b subclades. "The Basques are R1b too, and at higher concentrations!" is not a good argument against other Iberians being Celtic...


Basque and Aquitanian are R1b M153 and R1b M167 mainly=> spoke a non indo european language

Iberian (North and middle western spain) are mainly R1b M167 and spoke a non Indo european language


Now tell me which subclade of R1b is guenuinly Celtic in the Iberian Peninsula
 
Well, look at the R1b subclades. The Basques in partilcular have fairly unique principle subclades (R1b1b2a1b1 and R1b1b2a1b2) that differentiate them from the Celts, who appear to have included a larger variety of R1b subclades. "The Basques are R1b too, and at higher concentrations!" is not a good argument against other Iberians being Celtic...


Well said...
 
Well, look at the R1b subclades. The Basques in partilcular have fairly unique principle subclades (R1b1b2a1b1 and R1b1b2a1b2) that differentiate them from the Celts, who appear to have included a larger variety of R1b subclades.


the Main celtic subclades are R1b U152 and the subclades of R1b in te Danube region
 
Basque and Aquitanian are R1b M153 and R1b M167 mainly=> spoke a non indo european language
Iberian (North and middle western spain) are mainly R1b M167 and spoke a non Indo european language
Now tell me which subclade of R1b is guenuinly Celtic in the Iberian Peninsula
Middle-western Spain spoke a non Indo European language? Lusitanian, a likely Proto-Celtic and obviously IE language, was spoken in west-central Spain. Celtiberian was spoken exclusively in the center and center-east of Spain. Non IE languages were practiced only in the southeast and east of the Peninsula.
 
Basque and Aquitanian are R1b M153 and R1b M167 mainly=> spoke a non indo european language

Iberian (North and middle western spain) are mainly R1b M167 and spoke a non Indo european language


Now tell me which subclade of R1b is guenuinly Celtic in the Iberian Peninsula

M167 is north and middle western? I thought it was mostly Catalan, and seemed like a good candidate to have come out of the Celts (its presence in the Basques acknowledged... but it could have been a later introduction or a happenstance admixture with the Basques).

Maciamo puts it well in his summary:

Maciamo said:
The Alpine Celts of the Hallstatt culture are associated with the S28 (a.k.a. U152) mutation, although not exclusively.

Surely L21 is also quite Celtic? So, Celtic culture spanned an array of subclades. I will defer to the Iberian experts for concentrations of subclades in Iberia, I'm not particularly familiar with them.
 
Autosomal DNA studies show practically no Middle Eastern affinities in Spaniards. Check the latest DODECAD (Dienekes) project frequencies.
Prot-Celtic, Celtic and Celtiberian, along with some Germanic, forms the great majority of the Iberian genetic substratum. The Romans contributed little genetically.

Where the hell did you see that on the Dodecad project ? It doesn't differentiate Celtic, Germanic or Roman admixtures !
 
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M167 is north and middle western? I thought it was mostly Catalan, and seemed like a good candidate to have come out of the Celts (its presence in the Basques acknowledged... but it could have been a later introduction or a happenstance admixture with the Basques).

Maciamo puts it well in his summary:



Surely L21 is also quite Celtic? So, Celtic culture spanned an array of subclades. I will defer to the Iberian experts for concentrations of subclades in Iberia, I'm not particularly familiar with them.

There is an ongoing L21 heredity effort measuring the British Isles, French, Spanish and Portuguese. With more Spaniards and Portuguese being tested L21 is surfacing more and more in Iberians. If I recall correctly, the latest Iberians to test as L21 are from the Azores. RS2, a member of Eupedia, is one of the coordinators of the project.
 
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