The Celts of Iberia

[Cambrius (The Red)]

I think the same...tu ignorancia y complejos son extraordinarios....goodbye.

Brady, you have no credibility. You are embarrassing yourself. Are you a masochist? Move on...

 

[^ lynx ^]

Wilhelm, no te rebajes a su nivel, no pretendas discutir en serio de genetica o historia con un troll acomplejado de un pais tercermundista, obsesionado con los espa?oles.

Han entrado al trapo tras el baneo de Sirious2b, con los mismos argumentos infantiles que van a hacer desternillarse de carcajadas a la gente de este foro (hablamos de gente culta e inteligente, no como la mayoria de los que frecuentan foros latinoamericanos de donde ellos vienen). Se estan ridiculizando solos... no hace falta que los intentes poner en evidencia, ya lo hacen ellos.

Esta es la imagen que estan dando de los latinoamericanos:

- Gente obsesionada con los espa?oles.
- Gente empe?ada en ser aceptada como igual a los espa?oles, y que cuando no lo cosiguen y se les recuerdan sus origenes nativo-americanos, montan en colera, poniendo de manifiesto sus complejos e ideas racistas.
- Gente intolerante que no permite que se pongan noticias periodisticas sobre los problemas de Latino America, poniendo de nuevo de relieve los graves problemas de autoestima que tienen.
- Gente profundamente bananera, visceral, infantil e ignorante, que se deja llevar por instintos primarios.


No trates de ponerlos en evidencia porque simplemente NO HACE FALTA.

Saludos.

 

[Regulus]

Wilhelm, no te rebajes a su nivel, no pretendas discutir en serio de genetica o historia con un troll acomplejado de un pais tercermundista, obsesionado con los espa�oles.

Han entrado al trapo tras el baneo de Sirious2b, con los mismos argumentos infantiles que van a hacer desternillarse de carcajadas a la gente de este foro (hablamos de gente culta e inteligente, no como la mayoria de los que frecuentan foros latinoamericanos de donde ellos vienen). Se estan ridiculizando solos... no hace falta que los intentes poner en evidencia, ya lo hacen ellos.

Esta es la imagen que estan dando de los latinoamericanos:

- Gente obsesionada con los espa�oles.
- Gente empe�ada en ser aceptada como igual a los espa�oles, y que cuando no lo cosiguen y se les recuerdan sus origenes nativo-americanos, montan en colera, poniendo de manifiesto sus complejos e ideas racistas.
- Gente intolerante que no permite que se pongan noticias periodisticas sobre los problemas de Latino America, poniendo de nuevo de relieve los graves problemas de autoestima que tienen.
- Gente profundamente bananera, visceral, infantil e ignorante, que se deja llevar por instintos primarios.


No trates de ponerlos en evidencia porque simplemente NO HACE FALTA.

Saludos.

Agreed,
Yo dije antes. Olvidalo, no tiene compostura.

 

[Cambrius (The Red)]

Talk about a collection of buffoons. Amazing how emotionally compromised some of these trolls are.

 

[Carlitos]

Parece que ya ha pasado el Tsunami, mañana intentarán volver a la carga; aunque creo que si no reciben insultos no se sienten gratificados y pronto se agotaran en sus provocaciones.

 

[Cambrius (The Red)]

Parece que ya ha pasado el Tsunami, mañana intentarán volver a la carga; aunque creo que si no reciben insultos no se sienten gratificados y pronto se agotaran en sus provocaciones.

Son tipos muy ignorantes que solamente saben escribir mentiras y tonterias. Basura humana 100%.:18:

 

[Drac]

Bueno los españoles tenemos sangre árabe, es cierto, pero también tenemos sangre do otros pueblos que o bien nos dominaron como los romanos o con quienes convivimos como los godos. No hay de que ofenderse, bueno en mi caso.

O sea que quieres hacernos creer que los celtas no tuvieron ninguna influencia en España, a pesar de que al contrario de tus pretensiones nadie los exterminó o echó afuera (simplemente se integraron con los pueblos pre-indoeuropeos que ya estaban asentados en la Península), pero una minoría árabe/beréber, que no llegaba ni al 5% de la población de la Península, y que además fue eventualmente expulsada junto con la mayor parte de los musulmanes autóctonos, si tuvo tal influencia. Venga, fantasma, que no vas a convencer a nadie sensato con tales cuentos.

 

[sparkey]

I have avoided this thread because I've never seen one so badly mired in trolling and flaming, but it is genuinely an interesting topic... so can anyone point me to the interesting stuff in this thread? Like, actual, detailed analysis of the makeup of Iberian genetics and archaeological findings?

Also, I would like anyone with a better understanding of the topic to tell me how close my own personal understanding of Iberian cultural history and genetics is based on this summary:

Prior to Roman influence, Iberia was largely (quite possibly a majority) Celtic, both in culture and in language. It had a significant number of R1b-type peoples who were non-IE speaking in addition, including Iberian speakers and some proto-Basques (who were more common in France at that time, but there was some spillover). Roman influence replaced the Celtic language and culture to a similar degree as seen in France. The Iberian language was also replaced with vulgar Latin, which became Spanish (Portuguese? Catalan? I'm not well versed on how the different modern Iberian languages developed). Celtic language vanished early on, and the only non-IE language to persist was Basque, which had mostly vanished from where it was originally concentrated (Aquitania). Later, Iberia suffered more invasions, most significantly from the Moors. The Moors left a DNA trail to some degree but modern Iberians still have the great majority of their blood from the original Celtic-speaking and non-IE speaking peoples. Autosomally, they cluster close to other southern Europeans, as expected. Compared to France, which was similarly formally Celtic but became Romance, Iberia has comparable levels of "Celtic" DNA but less "Germanic" DNA.

 

[Brady]

O sea que quieres hacernos creer que los celtas no tuvieron ninguna influencia en España, a pesar de que al contrario de tus pretensiones nadie los exterminó o echó afuera (simplemente se integraron con los pueblos pre-indoeuropeos que ya estaban asentados en la Península), pero una minoría árabe/beréber, que no llegaba ni al 5% de la población de la Península, y que además fue eventualmente expulsada junto con la mayor parte de los musulmanes autóctonos, si tuvo tal influencia. Venga, fantasma, que no vas a convencer a nadie sensato con tales cuentos.

The Celts were invaders just like the Visigoths and never even spread across the entire peninsula.

 

[Cambrius (The Red)]

I have avoided this thread because I've never seen one so badly mired in trolling and flaming, but it is genuinely an interesting topic... so can anyone point me to the interesting stuff in this thread? Like, actual, detailed analysis of the makeup of Iberian genetics and archaeological findings?
Also, I would like anyone with a better understanding of the topic to tell me how close my own personal understanding of Iberian cultural history and genetics is based on this summary:
Prior to Roman influence, Iberia was largely (quite possibly a majority) Celtic, both in culture and in language. It had a significant number of R1b-type peoples who were non-IE speaking in addition, including Iberian speakers and some proto-Basques (who were more common in France at that time, but there was some spillover). Roman influence replaced the Celtic language and culture to a similar degree as seen in France. The Iberian language was also replaced with vulgar Latin, which became Spanish (Portuguese? Catalan? I'm not well versed on how the different modern Iberian languages developed). Celtic language vanished early on, and the only non-IE language to persist was Basque, which had mostly vanished from where it was originally concentrated (Aquitania). Later, Iberia suffered more invasions, most significantly from the Moors. The Moors left a DNA trail to some degree but modern Iberians still have the great majority of their blood from the original Celtic-speaking and non-IE speaking peoples. Autosomally, they cluster close to other southern Europeans, as expected. Compared to France, which was similarly formally Celtic but became Romance, Iberia has comparable levels of "Celtic" DNA but less "Germanic" DNA.

Pretty much correct. However, the demographic evidence suggests that, at a point in time, the Iberian population was ~ 75% Celtic and Celtiberian. In the regions that now comprise Portugal, Galicia and Asturias, the total was likely over 90% (Celtic only).

The Iberian genetic substratum consists of Paleolithic, Proto-Celtic, Celtic and Germanic. Near Eastern influences are minimal. Autosomal DNA testing has repeatedly confirmed that Spaniards and Portuguese cluster with one another, the French and N. Italians. The DODECAD ancestry figures have Spaniards and Portuguese with the second and third largest N. European genetic input, 38.1% and 36.1% respectively. France, which is part northern and part southern, totals 50.1%.

What some people have posted here is laughable and intellectually dishonest in the worst way.

 

[sparkey]

Pretty much correct. However, the demographic evidence suggests that, at a point in time, the Iberian population was ~ 75% Celtic and Celtiberian. In the regions that now comprise Portugal, Galicia and Asturias, the total was likely over 90% (Celtic only).

The Iberian genetic substratum consists of Paleolithic, Proto-Celtic, Celtic and Germanic. Near Eastern influences are minimal. Autosomal DNA testing has repeatedly confirmed that Spaniards and Portuguese cluster with one another, the French and N. Italians. The DODECAD ancestry figures have Spaniards and Portuguese with the second and third largest N. European genetic input, 38.1% and 36.1% respectively. France, which is part northern and part southern, totals 50.1%.

What some people have posted here is laughable and intellectually dishonest in the worst way.

Great summary, thanks. I am also curious about the Catalans in particular. Do they cluster significantly differently in any meaningful way away from the Spanish? I know they have a hefty concentration of R1b1b2a1a2c, but I don't know the history of that subclade offhand.

 

[Brady]

Sorry...but...I have to say...not. Check this out: If you guys were a little more up-to-date, you would know that the Brits (Welch mainly) have been making genetic maps based strictly on DNA tests and according to the latest studies, none of the so-called Celtic peoples have a single drop of Celtic blood. The Celts, with capital city in Hallstatt (today’s Austria), like Belarmu says, lived mainly in Central Europe and the Danube valley. In fact any ethonographic museum anywhere in Germany has more archeological findings than all of Spain together, and the Germans don’t go about saying they’re Celts. Of course they migrated to other parts. In fact Numancia was a Celtic settlement, founded by genuine Celts (the only one in Spain), but the Romans killed them all or took them to Rome as slaves. The now called Celtic peoples only speak a Celtic language, which must have been a trade language, but there was no massive arrival of Celts either in Ireland or elsewhere. Of course the Atlantic peoples are genetically related, but only because we are the last Proto-Europeans. The Atlantic people were here before the arrival of Celts, Romans, Sueves, Alans and West Goths. I can’t possibly summarize history in four lines, but stop that racist nonsense, because the only thoroughbreds here are the Asturcon ponies. here is the link: http://www.asturianus.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=171

 

[Wilhelm]

Prior to Roman influence, Iberia was largely (quite possibly a majority) Celtic, both in culture and in language. It had a significant number of R1b-type peoples who were non-IE speaking in addition, including Iberian speakers and some proto-Basques (who were more common in France at that time, but there was some spillover).

Correct. The genetics of pre-roman Iberia were pretty much the same as modern spaniards :

" [FONT=&quot]Haplogroup composition of the ancient Iberians was very similar to that found in modern Iberian Peninsula populations, suggesting a long-term genetic continuity since pre-Roman times [6] [7] [8]. "[/FONT] Wade, Nicholas (August 13, 2008). "The Genetic Map of Europe". The New York Times. http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/13/science/13visual.html. Retrieved October 17, 2009.

Roman influence replaced the Celtic language and culture to a similar degree as seen in France. The Iberian language was also replaced with vulgar Latin, which became Spanish (Portuguese? Catalan? I'm not well versed on how the different modern Iberian languages developed). Celtic language vanished early on, and the only non-IE language to persist was Basque, which had mostly vanished from where it was originally concentrated (Aquitania).

Correct.

Later, Iberia suffered more invasions, most significantly from the Moors. The Moors left a DNA trail to some degree but modern Iberians still have the great majority of their blood from the original Celtic-speaking and non-IE speaking peoples.

Correct, but the moorish dna is pretty insignificant, as seen in all the autosomal tests.

Autosomally, they cluster close to other southern Europeans, as expected. Compared to France, which was similarly formally Celtic but became Romance, Iberia has comparable levels of "Celtic" DNA but less "Germanic" DNA.

Correct. But the clustering is not exactly with southern-europeans. Only with French and North-Italians. As Southern-Europe is a very heteregenous region, genetically speaking.

Spaniards are not Celts. They are mostly arabs, they were invaded by arabs and moors They very very dark, ugly and greasy, and other europeans consider you like africans, mentally and culturally. You know ? Bye, bye spanish celts !

++++++++

btw Why are you spanish people so racist, if you are not aryans ? Stop playing little nazis..or you get your own medicine from nordic people,real whites, real celts

My IQ just dropped by 10 points reading this

 

[Cambrius (The Red)]

Great summary, thanks. I am also curious about the Catalans in particular. Do they cluster significantly differently in any meaningful way away from the Spanish? I know they have a hefty concentration of R1b1b2a1a2c, but I don't know the history of that subclade offhand.

I believe they trend a bit closer to the French, but not significantly more than other Iberian groups.

Iberians also show some closeness to the Swiss.

From what I recall, the last genetic distance tables comparing Spain to other European ethnicities are something like:

Spanish

Portuguese 0.5

French 3.0

Swiss 4.0

English and Irish 4.0 to 5.0

I'll try to dig up the latest tables.

 

[Drac]

The Celts were invaders just like the Visigoths and never even spread across the entire peninsula.

The big difference is that they were more numerous than the Visigoths and had been there from much earlier times. Visigoths and "Moors" were minorities from historical times. Celts were in Iberia from pre-recorded times.

They were present in about half of the Peninsula.

 

[Wilhelm]

Great summary, thanks. I am also curious about the Catalans in particular. Do they cluster significantly differently in any meaningful way away from the Spanish? I know they have a hefty concentration of R1b1b2a1a2c, but I don't know the history of that subclade offhand.

No. The catalans cluster with the rest of spaniards, though they are bit closer to french people. See this study, that compares catalans, with andalusians and castilians :

See this other study, the catalan sample and a Castilian one :

 

[spongetaro]

. In the regions that now comprise Portugal, Galicia and Asturias, the total was likely over 90% (Celtic only).

which have the highest frequencies of North African EM81.
You forgot to mention the Northern African influence in western Iberia (mainly Portugal) which is also fairly high in France

 

[Cambrius (The Red)]

Correct. The genetics of pre-roman Iberia were pretty much the same as modern spaniards :

" [FONT=&quot]Haplogroup composition of the ancient Iberians was very similar to that found in modern Iberian Peninsula populations, suggesting a long-term genetic continuity since pre-Roman times [6] [7] [8]. "[/FONT] Wade, Nicholas (August 13, 2008). "The Genetic Map of Europe". The New York Times. http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/13/science/13visual.html. Retrieved October 17, 2009.

Correct.

Later, Iberia suffered more invasions, most significantly from the Moors. The Moors left a DNA trail to some degree but modern Iberians still have the great majority of their blood from the original Celtic-speaking and non-IE speaking peoples.

Correct. But the clustering is not exactly with southern-europeans. Only with French and North-Italians. As Southern-Europe is a very heteregenous region, genetically speaking.


My IQ just dropped by 10 points reading this

Yes, Iberians (Spaniards, Portuguese and Andorrans) are closest to French and N. Italians.

 

[sparkey]

Re Wilhelm: Thanks for the additional confirmation/correction. Sounds like consensus to me.

Re Brady: Well... at least this is sounding like serious debate. Unless others get to your post before I finish typing this one, let me challenge this in particular:

In fact any ethonographic museum anywhere in Germany has more archeological findings than all of Spain together, and the Germans don’t go about saying they’re Celts.http://www.asturianus.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=171

Germans don't say that they're Celts because they're modern Germans, and have a lot of Germanic blood from times like the Migration Period, but to deny that Western Germanic speakers have a lot of blood that originally passed through Celtic speakers would be silly. Take the Swiss... they have tons of Celtic-origin Y-DNA and relatively little (~10%) of haplogroup I, which is more typical of Germanic peoples (yours truly being among the Swiss-origin haplogroup I people)... altogether indicating that they are largely Germanicized Celts.

(Is "Germanicized" the right word?)

 

[Cambrius (The Red)]

which have the highest frequencies of North African EM81.
You forgot to mention the Northern African influence in western Iberia (mainly Portugal) which is also fairly high in France

It surfaces much more in haplogroups. Haplogroups are simply indicators of ancient migratory influences and do not reflect full heredity. What counts for true ancestry is autosomal DNA. In all autosomal tests, Spaniards in general show minimal Berber affinities (~ 3%) and the Portuguese and NW Spaniards slightly more (5-6%). The majority of population geneticists now believe that EM81 in Western Europe essentially came from Mesolithic and Neolithic Berber migrations and are not the result of Muslim invasions.

See the DODECAD project results for a base study.