Why not? This is a fascinating hypothesis about Veneti name origin... In Adriatic region we have despite Raza for Duck, like Raca in Slovenian language. My preferred hypothesis among many different others is that Veneti bring their name from the Northern-anatholia city of ENETE. The name is fom Mythology but can be the ancienst in timeline.This is from wiktionary about Antis (Lith) etimology:
From Proto-Indo-European *ənət-. More at ennet.
This is interesting also because in Latvian duck is 'pīle', which is not derived from 'antis', and also out of all Slavic languages I checked only Russian has 'utka' from 'antis', all others have different names for duck, although apparently they knew duck at period of common slavic. Coud it be that initial term was replaced by derived ones for some reason?
Another question is if Venets themselves could have been derived directly or indirectly from duck. Either as v...+enet which turned into venet (similar as drake in modern English is from something like enned+reik - duck king), or maybe via term 'boat' which could in turn have been derived from duck.
Just speculating
Veneti
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Speculations about Euganei are very weak argument because, unfortunately, we have only legend sources about this people. Wo were they I don't know... maybe were they from Terramare culture? This culture collapsed before Veneti arrival.
I'm sorry, we are speacking about two different cities: Vieu is not Vieux.
In the period you quoted (400-600 AD) there was a Migration from Wales to Brittany, owing to Saxons invasion of Great Britain. Well, Welsh people and Brittany people are speacking quite the same language. Nobody can really know which kind of language was spoken by the Brittany Veneti of Caesar time (56 b. C). I'm not an expert of Linguistic, just I read the conclusions of Gvozdanovich. Personally, I don't totally agree with the "Celtic" common substrate of Baltic-Brittany-Adriatic Veneti. Krahe wrote that Venetic language is an independent branch, so I think possible that Venetic language influenced Brittany settlers and then, in a second time, was celticized.
To me the classification of a Baltic people is quite artificial ad abstract: never exited a people of "Balti", there were many tribes speacking a "baltic language". Anyway in the area of Vistola there were WENDI people, different from Baltic language speakers.
Taranis
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Ah, my apologies then. My point remains, the element "Vindo-" is unrelated with the ethnic name "Veneti".
Not quite the same. Breton is actually somewhat more closely related with Cornish.
Really, just how about Gaulish?
Is the assumption that unlikely if you have Gaulish place names (e.g. "Darioritum") and Gaulish personal names (e.g. "Atepomarus") that the Gaulish Veneti just spoke Gaulish? No offense, don't you see how flimsy (or weak) your hypothesis is if your evidence just isn't there, and you extrapolate that some form of "Venetic" language?
I'm sure that Krahe just talked about Adriatic Venetic there, and nothing else (thoigh I would disagree with him, I would definitely place Adriatic Venetic close with the Italic languages). Also, not only are you basing this on non-existing evidence, you're also ignoring evidence that contradicts your view, namely the evidence for Gaulish in the area of Brittany.
It doesn't matter, Baltic languages exist today, descended from a common Proto-Balto-Slavic (together with the Slavic languages). Its unlikely that the Galindians and Sudovians spoke something else.
"Venedi" (or "Veneti" in some sources), the term "Wends" is medieval. Also, you're wrong. The Venedi were along the entire coast of the Baltic Sea, plus its hinterland, its clear that the Galindians and Sudovians were part of the Venedic 'races' (plural, in the sense of Ptolemy).
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Euganei was there before the veneti , all historians state this ..... period was earlier than 1200BC and it seems it was not Veneti
Did you go to the venetian archives and get infromation?..........when I went there they explained to me the 2 columns which have ancient significance with where they originate from.
In the pizzetta, san Marco column placed ~950AD has a winged lion, that lion is a hittite lion ( anatolian ) it is not an africa lion.........it matches exactly hittite lions.
other column which was the original saint of venice before saint Mark...this is saint theodore , standing on a crocodile, .........theodore was born in Lycia in southern Anatolia and died in Sinope in northern Anatolia........the crocodile represents Egypt..........it was to represent the commercial domination of Alexandria egypt by the venetians. Lycia had the same impact according to tradition as the venetians did.
you have an opportunity to get answers ......as well as speak to Elisa ...........go and find out.
the wends have nothing to do with any of the veneti/venedi or whatever
Taranis, among the rare inscriptions of Morbihan could be found the inscription of Plumergat atrebo aganntobo with the dative plural typical of the Veneti, thy say. Tacito (I century AD) wrote that the language of Aesti was similar of that of Britan: Lingua britanniae prorior. Tacito has a very good knowledge of the region because married the sister of Roman general fighting in Britain.
About Wendi, Ptolemy isn't medieval (II century AD). I think Poland Wends were local descendants of the Lusatian culture, so they were not "Balts".
About Wendi, Ptolemy isn't medieval (II century AD). I think Poland Wends were local descendants of the Lusatian culture, so they were not "Balts".
Taranis
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No offense to you, but your thoroughly killing your hypothesis there. Who claims this, who is 'they' here? Because, not only is the dative plural ending *-bo attested from Gaulish, its also attested from Gallaecian, while the more conservative Celtic languages (Lepontic and Celtiberian) do have *-obos. Even Gvozdanovic mentions this, he explicitly refers to the Plumergat inscription as "Gaulish", and I agree with him there.
Yes, I'm aware of that passage (chapter 45) by Tacitus in his "Germania". I'd like you to pinpoint to the fact that he talks in this passage about the Aesti, not the Venedi.
But Ptolemy uses the term "Ouenedai" (Ουενεδαι), rendered as "Venedi" in Latin, not "Ouendi". The usage of the term "Wends", for the West Slavic peoples, is from the Middle Ages. The term "Wendland" for roughly that region eastern Germany is still in use today.
Sorry, as I said, the "Wends" were medieval West Slavic peoples, but they certainly didn't live there before the Migration period.
1) I know Aesti are not Veneti, what I mean is that in some Atlantic area (Britain) thy spoked "not Celtic" but East European language.
2) Ouenadai, Venedi or Wends are obviously the same people. The name is different because of Greek, Latin and German pronunciation
3) Have you any scientific, archaeological or genetic proof and evidence about that? Or it is just your opinion? How can you be so sure about that? So you want to show that the descendant of Lusatian culture were German tribes? Is this you opinion?
Taranis
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Certain areas of the Atlantic area - like Britain - spoke an East European language? Seriously?
No offense, but that claim is just outlandish. You might as well claim that the Atlantic seaboard spoke Algonquian, Salish or maybe Tibeto-Burman, such a claim would be just as plausible, and just as well grounded on the available evidence.
I might add, I'm not ruling out that the Venedi of European Sarmatia (in particular the "Venedic" peoples further interior that would qualify as candidates for the actual Proto-Slavs) were actually speakers of Balto-Slavic (rather, I made that possibility because in the 2nd century, Proto-Slavic and the Baltic languages would have been still very close, this is very clear from internal reconstruction). But, my objection is that 1) the medieval usage of "Wends" is clearly as an exonym, therefor we don't know that for certain, and 2) the Venedi lived much further east (former East Prussia - modern the Kaliningrad Oblast, Lithuania, perhaps Belarus), while the area of the "Wendish" (West Slavic) peoples was firmly Germanic in the 2nd century (read below).
Its not my opinion, but I sense that you're not going to accept the following paragraph because you've declared earlier in this thread that according to you, linguistic is supposedly a "weak" science. In any case, Greek and Roman geographers describe the ethnic groups of Germania in sufficient detail.
As I said, the tribes of the general area of modern eastern Germany and western Poland (between the Elbe and Oder rivers, but you could extend that to the Vistula) have clearly Germanic names, including the Langobards, Suebi and Burgundian, or would you say that the bearers of the contemporary (2nd century AD) cultures of these areas - the Jastorf and Przework cultures - spoke something else than Germanic?
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maybe the linguafranca of the amber trade route from the aesti to the adriatic sea was celtic language
I might add, I'm not ruling out that the Venedi of European Sarmatia (in particular the "Venedic" peoples further interior that would qualify as candidates for the actual Proto-Slavs) were actually speakers of Balto-Slavic (rather, I made that possibility because in the 2nd century, Proto-Slavic and the Baltic languages would have been still very close, this is very clear from internal reconstruction). But, my objection is that 1) the medieval usage of "Wends" is clearly as an exonym, therefor we don't know that for certain, and 2) the Venedi lived much further east (former East Prussia - modern the Kaliningrad Oblast, Lithuania, perhaps Belarus), while the area of the "Wendish" (West Slavic) peoples was firmly Germanic in the 2nd century (read below).
Its not my opinion, but I sense that you're not going to accept the following paragraph because you've declared earlier in this thread that according to you, linguistic is supposedly a "weak" science. In any case, Greek and Roman geographers describe the ethnic groups of Germania in sufficient detail.
As I said, the tribes of the general area of modern eastern Germany and western Poland (between the Elbe and Oder rivers, but you could extend that to the Vistula) have clearly Germanic names, including the Langobards, Suebi and Burgundian, or would you say that the bearers of the contemporary (2nd century AD) cultures of these areas - the Jastorf and Przework cultures - spoke something else than Germanic?
wendish and the map
Clearly the map if to represent between trajan occupation of Dacia ~100AD and the pre gothic movement to the black sea ~200AD. It also has no coastal venedi which was absorbed in 198AD by the goths ( aestii absorbed 205AD ).....so its claearly around 200AD
It states the Lugii are the Vandals . the history of the vandals are that they began on the coast of mecklenburg and pommeria . they where known as the Vendili ( first sign of future Wends) . These vendili/vandals according to map became the Lugii.
Now going forward, when the vandals headed west to Spain, the burgundians followed to eastern france, the rugii to eastern Austria and the gepid sand gottones already had settled on the black sea............the incoming slavic from 500/600 ad , claearly filled the void of these people in mecklenburg and Pommeria and took the name of the vendili ..they became the "new" wends.
The Venedi in the interior can only reflect the lithuanians who represent the Vends or is a complete error because they cannot find ptolemy's venedic people on the baltic sea..........since we also know in the darkages that the vends are recorded as latvians and lithuanians by historical records.
In regards to tacitus........I have recently rated him very low for accuracy after seeing many recent scholars decifer his original works from Rome ( after 1970 ), just above jordanes and far inferior than ptolemy...........at least Ptolemy gave us latitude and longitude of tribes and he was very accurate in this field
In regards to the value of language in history - Unless you use isoglosses as per the heidelberg univ. paper on the venetic language, then really what use is ancient languages?
Clearly people spoke more languages or knew more language than we know today..........and I do not include the major language of Latin
Let us consider the Vistula river area: in the map we can find there the Goths, were they authoctonous? No, according to Jordanes' Getica, written in the mid-6th century, the earliest migrating Goths sailed from Scandza (Scandinavia). So probably they submit or they push to the East the local Venedi (I mean the Venedi living in Venedicus sinus according to Ptolemy).Certain areas of the Atlantic area - like Britain - spoke an East European language? Seriously?
No offense, but that claim is just outlandish. You might as well claim that the Atlantic seaboard spoke Algonquian, Salish or maybe Tibeto-Burman, such a claim would be just as plausible, and just as well grounded on the available evidence.
I might add, I'm not ruling out that the Venedi of European Sarmatia (in particular the "Venedic" peoples further interior that would qualify as candidates for the actual Proto-Slavs) were actually speakers of Balto-Slavic (rather, I made that possibility because in the 2nd century, Proto-Slavic and the Baltic languages would have been still very close, this is very clear from internal reconstruction). But, my objection is that 1) the medieval usage of "Wends" is clearly as an exonym, therefor we don't know that for certain, and 2) the Venedi lived much further east (former East Prussia - modern the Kaliningrad Oblast, Lithuania, perhaps Belarus), while the area of the "Wendish" (West Slavic) peoples was firmly Germanic in the 2nd century (read below).
Its not my opinion, but I sense that you're not going to accept the following paragraph because you've declared earlier in this thread that according to you, linguistic is supposedly a "weak" science. In any case, Greek and Roman geographers describe the ethnic groups of Germania in sufficient detail.
As I said, the tribes of the general area of modern eastern Germany and western Poland (between the Elbe and Oder rivers, but you could extend that to the Vistula) have clearly Germanic names, including the Langobards, Suebi and Burgundian, or would you say that the bearers of the contemporary (2nd century AD) cultures of these areas - the Jastorf and Przework cultures - spoke something else than Germanic?
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very astonishing
so when Romans don't know the name of a tribe people living near the sea they called them 'veneti'???, every everytime???
but in latin "venetus" vould be the "sea blue (one)" - the Celts living by the N-W shores of Gauls named themselves 'AREMORICI' ("the ones close or around the sea" not *'GLASICI' or something close, NOT the "sea blue ones"...
what make you conclude all these 'Veneti' were exonyms???
this thread seems (to me, at least), turning on itself...
no offense
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your confusing yourself.......explain then, if the Gauls as you say in brittany called themselves Aremorici, then why or when did the Romans name them veneti?
I am not concluding anything.......i do not think these 3 veneti areas are linked to each other in any form, what proof do you have that they do entwine ?
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Im' not confusing myself: let's read well: AREMORICI are not A TRIBE but a CONFEDERATION of maritime tribes, VENETI of West were members of it, apparently, and the most mighty - I was just speaking about the weak possibility to call a people (in or out) with a colour name TO LINK IT TO A NATURAL ELEMENT: "close to the sea" or " of the mountain" can have sense, "blue like the sea" or "white as the mountain snow" would be less evident... and apparently the other Celts accepted this name of VENETI in their dialects, what would be surprising if it was ONLY A LATIN EXONYM -
that said I never speak about any other point in my post to you - I don' entwine anything here -
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well, there are other meanings..........but the venet did not call themselves veneti
This book proposes that the date of disbursement and migration, along with
historical and DNA evidence, indicates Tribe R-L513 is what the Romans called the Veneti tribe
(the “V” is pronounced as a “W”). The Latin word Venetia means “Blessed” and is, according
to Romans, what this tribe called itself. Through these pages this author will link the Veneti with
R-L513. Julius Caesar defeated this Celtic tribe in 56 BC and drove them out of continental
Europe but that was just the beginning of their story – and perhaps your history.
All our written knowledge of the Veneti comes from Romans who, seeing them as a road block
to their conquest of Britain, did everything they could to eradicate their existence from the Earth.
To Romans the Blessed must have seemed like a fitting name, given their degree of success. In
60 BC, Romans put the Veneti population around 60,000 to 100,000 living on the north-west
coast of Europe. “Blessed” in their own language is Bennozh. A thousand years later
inhabitants will call this land “Breizh” or in English – Brittany. At this time they are at their
height of influence and power. The Veneti are successful and prosperous which put them square
in the sights of Rome.
If R1b-L513 is the Veneti tribe of Brittany, they were distinctive from other Celtic tribes as they
were defined by sea and not land. Most Celts involved in trade built roads. Veneti focus on
building ships and dominating sea trade. According to Romans, Veneti built the best ships in the
world which were most suitable for North Atlantic ocean voyages.
In 57 BC, the Celts on the Atlantic coast are warned by Rome to submit to Caesar’s authority as
governor and “protector of the Gauls” or face war. The seven Gaul, or Celtic tribes of Brittany
have yet to agree. Representatives of each of the tribes: Osismi, Armoricani, Unelli, Redones,
Namnetes, Curiosolitae are in Darioritum, the Veneti capital city to see how their Senate will
vote. It is known Veneti has a Senate because Caesar later writes of him destroying it.
As Veneti are the most powerful tribe in Brittany
There is also a German branch of R1b-L513 [suspect Subgroup N] from the village Amber. The
Veneti controlled amber trade with the main area of operation located at a settlement called
Amber, down the river Elbe in Germany. Its location intersected two supply road routes: one
from the Baltic Sea and another from North Sea coasts where they discovered amber. Amber
would have similar value and purpose as diamonds do today. The location allowed ships to
come right to the settlement to load polished amber jewelry collected from both sea coasts,
saving two separate sea trips.
With a decisive Roman victory over the main tribe in Brittany in 56 BC, the Veneti settlement in
Amber or Ambur or Hamburg, Germany would have been totally cut off from other subgroups
.....................................................................................................
what Piero is supporting....i think
The previously held view that the Venedic peoples were Illyrians,Wends,or Slavs
has been adeguately dispelled by linguistic research.
Their identity as Italic speakers has been widely accepted by linguists
who have adressed themselves to problems of the Venetic language
The fact that Venetic has been shown to contain both Italic and German isoglosses
is significant if the Venedi and Veneti are cultuarally the same and migrated from north-central
Europe to the shores of the Adriatic
MOESAN
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Don't take this personal remark for you, but I think we are wasting time with this Gvozdanovic hypothesis - I already explained the phonetic peculiarities of the today 'vannetais' ('gwenedeg') dialect are far less striking than the Oil french phonetics so if the palatalizing facts putten as proves had some worth, the linguistical argument ought to be applied to all Gaul or almost, and we need no more distorsion of the poor 'veneti' name origin to explain this surprising theory - all Gauls were Veneti brethren then and all of them amber traders (at least all the tribes near the sea)...???
to go further on, I see yet NO PROOF of Veneti AS AN EXONYM - and 'bennozh' is a modern word in breton ('bennoh' in vannetais) and came surely from a loan on latin : welsh 'bendith' so close to 'benedict-us' for "blessed" - contrary to what is said in the little text, 'venet' does not mean 'blessed' in latine BUT the explanation OF THE CONFUSION could be that 'blessed' is rendered also by 'gwenn' in breton (by semantic picture: "white" >> "pure" >> "blessed") BUT 'gwenn' come from 'vindo' not from 'venet-'
I think someones write a lot of things based upon a too superficial study of facts (look at the theory linking Phoenicians and Veneti, already dismissed by a lot of people here, Taranis and me among them -
I repeat : making hypothesis is good and necessary very often, but proofs are required before becoming too affirmative -
&: I 'm amazed that someone could affirm that Veneti were Y-R1b-L513: have we found a lot of ancient Veneti DNA??? If true I ignored it!
good evening
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