Veneti

[Angela]

Do you have any evidence and scientifical proof to PROVE that all these VENETI tribes (Brittany, Italy, NE Europe) have NO COMMON roots? No, you don't have any. I challenge you to find just one proof...

Moesan is correct. You can't shift the burden of proof in this way. If you are proposing a hypothesis, it is incumbent upon you to provide the proof.

Let's posit, for example, to use a ridiculous analogy, that someone were to say that the moon is inhabited by little green men. It would be up to the person asserting that to prove it by empirical evidence. The fact that people can't disprove it has no probative value.

It's sort of analogous to Russell''s Teapot.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russell's_teapot

 

[MOESAN]

@ piero

direct it at moesan.......i did not write this

ANSWER TO PIERO AND SILE AND OTHERS
there is a mess about quotes here!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I never write this post with this tone ("I challenge you to prove there is no proof...")
it was a post of PIERO # 317 answering my personal answer to SILE
after that there has been an inversion in the diverse quotings imputing the posts to the wrong person I don't know w
THAT SAID I FIND PIERO VERY FORGETFUL / HE DOESN'T REMEMBER NOR RECOGNIZE WHAT HE WRITES, FUNNY INDEED...

 

[Regio X]

According to Boattini et al, there are at least three major groups of G2a in Italy, and they have different ages.

This is what Maciamo seems to advocate. According to him:
(...)
"Nowadays G2a is found mostly in mountainous regions of Europe, for example, in the Apennine mountains (15 to 25%) and Sardinia (12%) in Italy, Cantabria (10%) and Asturias (8%) in northern Spain, Austria (8%), Auvergne (8%) and Provence (7%) in south-east France, Switzerland (7.5%), the mountainous parts of Bohemia (5 to 10%), Romania (6.5%) and Greece (6.5%). It may be because Caucasian farmers sought hilly terrain similar to their original homeland, perhaps well suited to the raising of goats. But it is more likely that G2a farmers escaped from Bronze-Age invaders, such as the Indo-Europeans and found shelter into the mountains. For example, G2a3a (M406) is found at relatively high frequencies in the southern Balkans, the Apennines and the Alps, in contrast with G2a3b (L141.1), which is found everywhere in Europe."
(...)
"Contrarily to other branches of G2a, which are more prevalent in mountainous areas, G2a3b (L141.1), and particularly the G2a3b1 (P303) subclade, is found uniformly throughout Europe, even in Scandinavia and Russia. More importantly, G2a3b and its subclades are also found in eastern Anatolia, the Caucasus, Central Asia and throughout India, especially among the upper castes, who represent the descendants of the Bronze Age Indo-European invaders. The combined presence of G2a3b1 across Europe and India is a very strong argument in favour of an Indo-European origin. The coalescence age of G2a3b1 also matches the time of the Indo-European expansion during the Bronze Age.The homeland of R1b1a (P297) and Pre-Proto-Indo-European speakers is presumed to have been situated in eastern Anatolia and/or the North Caucasus. The Caucasus itself is a hotspot of haplogroup G. Therefore, it is entirely conceivable that a minority of Caucasian men belonging to haplogroup G (and perhaps also J2b) integrated the R1b community that crossed the Caucasus and established themselves on the northern and eastern shores of the Black Sea sometime between 7,000 and 4,500 BCE.An alternative theory is that G2a3 (L30) came from Anatolia to eastern and Central Europe during the Neolithic (a fact proven by ancient DNA test). Once in Southeast Europe it split in two branches: G2a3a, who followed the Danube to Central Europe (LBK), and G2a3b, who migrated east to the Pontic Steppe and brought agriculture to the region. G2a3b would have mixed with the indigenous R1a people, then with R1b newcomers during the Chalcolithic and Bronze Age. By the time the Proto-Indo-Europeans started their massive expansion, G2a3b men (who apparently belonged overwhelmingly to G2a3b1 and its subclades) would have joined R1b-M269/L23 in the invasion of Old Europe from 4200 BCE (=> see R1b history). G2a3a would have been among the conquered populations of Old Europe, seeking refuge in mountainous areas."
(...)
"By the Iron Age, the G2a population in most of Europe had been decimated by the Indo-European invasions, followed by Celtic warfare. G2a sought refuge from the invaders in the mountains, and like today, reached maximum frequencies in Italy (Apennines, Sardinia) and in the Alps.The ancient Latins and Romans descend from the Italic tribes who invaded the Italian peninsula from 1200 BCE. They seem to have belonged primarily to haplogroup R1b-U152 (=> see Genetics of the Italian people), but to have carried a substantial minority of G2a3b (L141.1) lineages, especially the U1 and L497 subclades. The Latin homeland in central Italy is one of the hotspots for haplogroup G2a in Europe today. The high level in G2a in the Latium might be due to the dual presence of Indo-European G2a3b and of earlier Neolithic lineages who descended from the Apennines to live in Rome after being absorbed by the Roman civilisation.If the ancient Romans and other Romanised peoples from the Italian peninsula had any genetic impact on other parts of the Roman Empire (as they should have), they certainly contributed to a moderate increase of G2a lineages (in addition to R1b-U152 and J2) within the borders of the empire. Indeed, the frequency of haplogroup G decreases with the distance from the boundaries of the empire. Haplogroup G is extremely rare Nordic and Baltic countries nowadays, despite the fact that agriculture reached those regions around the same time as Britain or Ireland. Another reason could be that the forested lowlands of northern Germany, Poland and the Baltic were too poor in metals and did not have attract as many Bronze-Age workers from the Caucasus (=> see Metal-mining and stockbreeding explain R1b dominance in Atlantic fringe). Northeast Europe also has a relatively low percentage of haplogroup R1b, which further reinforces the hypothesis that the two haplogroups spread together during the Bronze Age."

according to the paper where the stats came from , it can be bronze-age , but it did not migrate to western austria. It was formed in western austria. From there it went to areas on the adjoining map in the link.
I am speaking about G-L497

The austrian one would not be the subgroup G-L42? Well, any way, G-L497 would be coming from caucasian G-P303, which are present in almost 90% of shapsugs. It reached even India. This is consistent with a more recent expansion of some G2a branches.

 

[Sile]

This is what Maciamo seems to advocate. According to him:
(...)
"Nowadays G2a is found mostly in mountainous regions of Europe, for example, in the Apennine mountains (15 to 25%) and Sardinia (12%) in Italy, Cantabria (10%) and Asturias (8%) in northern Spain, Austria (8%), Auvergne (8%) and Provence (7%) in south-east France, Switzerland (7.5%), the mountainous parts of Bohemia (5 to 10%), Romania (6.5%) and Greece (6.5%). It may be because Caucasian farmers sought hilly terrain similar to their original homeland, perhaps well suited to the raising of goats. But it is more likely that G2a farmers escaped from Bronze-Age invaders, such as the Indo-Europeans and found shelter into the mountains. For example, G2a3a (M406) is found at relatively high frequencies in the southern Balkans, the Apennines and the Alps, in contrast with G2a3b (L141.1), which is found everywhere in Europe."
(...)
"Contrarily to other branches of G2a, which are more prevalent in mountainous areas, G2a3b (L141.1), and particularly the G2a3b1 (P303) subclade, is found uniformly throughout Europe, even in Scandinavia and Russia. More importantly, G2a3b and its subclades are also found in eastern Anatolia, the Caucasus, Central Asia and throughout India, especially among the upper castes, who represent the descendants of the Bronze Age Indo-European invaders. The combined presence of G2a3b1 across Europe and India is a very strong argument in favour of an Indo-European origin. The coalescence age of G2a3b1 also matches the time of the Indo-European expansion during the Bronze Age.The homeland of R1b1a (P297) and Pre-Proto-Indo-European speakers is presumed to have been situated in eastern Anatolia and/or the North Caucasus. The Caucasus itself is a hotspot of haplogroup G. Therefore, it is entirely conceivable that a minority of Caucasian men belonging to haplogroup G (and perhaps also J2b) integrated the R1b community that crossed the Caucasus and established themselves on the northern and eastern shores of the Black Sea sometime between 7,000 and 4,500 BCE.An alternative theory is that G2a3 (L30) came from Anatolia to eastern and Central Europe during the Neolithic (a fact proven by ancient DNA test). Once in Southeast Europe it split in two branches: G2a3a, who followed the Danube to Central Europe (LBK), and G2a3b, who migrated east to the Pontic Steppe and brought agriculture to the region. G2a3b would have mixed with the indigenous R1a people, then with R1b newcomers during the Chalcolithic and Bronze Age. By the time the Proto-Indo-Europeans started their massive expansion, G2a3b men (who apparently belonged overwhelmingly to G2a3b1 and its subclades) would have joined R1b-M269/L23 in the invasion of Old Europe from 4200 BCE (=> see R1b history). G2a3a would have been among the conquered populations of Old Europe, seeking refuge in mountainous areas."
(...)
"By the Iron Age, the G2a population in most of Europe had been decimated by the Indo-European invasions, followed by Celtic warfare. G2a sought refuge from the invaders in the mountains, and like today, reached maximum frequencies in Italy (Apennines, Sardinia) and in the Alps.The ancient Latins and Romans descend from the Italic tribes who invaded the Italian peninsula from 1200 BCE. They seem to have belonged primarily to haplogroup R1b-U152 (=> see Genetics of the Italian people), but to have carried a substantial minority of G2a3b (L141.1) lineages, especially the U1 and L497 subclades. The Latin homeland in central Italy is one of the hotspots for haplogroup G2a in Europe today. The high level in G2a in the Latium might be due to the dual presence of Indo-European G2a3b and of earlier Neolithic lineages who descended from the Apennines to live in Rome after being absorbed by the Roman civilisation.If the ancient Romans and other Romanised peoples from the Italian peninsula had any genetic impact on other parts of the Roman Empire (as they should have), they certainly contributed to a moderate increase of G2a lineages (in addition to R1b-U152 and J2) within the borders of the empire. Indeed, the frequency of haplogroup G decreases with the distance from the boundaries of the empire. Haplogroup G is extremely rare Nordic and Baltic countries nowadays, despite the fact that agriculture reached those regions around the same time as Britain or Ireland. Another reason could be that the forested lowlands of northern Germany, Poland and the Baltic were too poor in metals and did not have attract as many Bronze-Age workers from the Caucasus (=> see Metal-mining and stockbreeding explain R1b dominance in Atlantic fringe). Northeast Europe also has a relatively low percentage of haplogroup R1b, which further reinforces the hypothesis that the two haplogroups spread together during the Bronze Age."


The austrian one would not be the subgroup G-L42? Well, any way, G-L497 would be coming from caucasian G-P303, which are present in almost 90% of shapsugs. It reached even India. This is consistent with a more recent expansion of some G2a branches.

as per this 2013 paper ...G-L497 was created in the italian alps ( tyrol) . It was a rhaetic marker and also was as per the Indigenous veneti , the eugenai . It did not come from the east.

http://www.blutspendezuerich.ch/Med...h resolution mapping of Y haplogroup G(2).pdf

 

[MOESAN]

I'm not sure to have well understood: Rhaetic = Veneti ??? if so, I' m very astonished by the reasonment !
by the way, a SNP is not created, it derives from an immediatly upstream SNP of same HG, by mutation

 

[Sile]

I'm not sure to have well understood: Rhaetic = Veneti ??? if so, I' m very astonished by the reasonment !

no I am not saying this

by the way, a SNP is not created, it derives from an immediatly upstream SNP of same HG, by mutation

L497 SNP mutated first in the alps is what is stated in the paper.

.......................................................
I will explain the veneti thing for you with a map.....it might be easier

1 - The original indigenous people of veneto and friuli where called the - Euganei
these people by recent Dna findings are similar to the Rhaeti

I used this map which represents the 3 veneti areas via linguistic and genetic similarities.....
the area in question represents the ancient areas of the Euganei ONLY in yellow



2- when the Veneti migrated to Veneto ( estimated by archeology to be 1200BC ) they fought the Euganei and these people fled into the alps. SOME of the Euganei became veneti by absorbtion into veneti society
Cato the roman historian states, the Euganei initially the 34 towns......so they seem great in number

3- the paper shows a map of G-L497 which is in rhaeti and "euganei" lands

4 - its logical if some Euganei entered Veneti society and the others entered Rhaetic society then surely as the paper states the genetics are similar in a great percentage of people.


OLd old papers will state the the Euganei where ligurian branch, but recent genetics have shifted them to a rhaetic branch especially since the Po river valley was inhabitable for living due to a higher water table.

 

[MOESAN]

no I am not saying this



L497 SNP mutated first in the alps is what is stated in the paper.

.......................................................
I will explain the veneti thing for you with a map.....it might be easier

1 - The original indigenous people of veneto and friuli where called the - Euganei
these people by recent Dna findings are similar to the Rhaeti

I used this map which represents the 3 veneti areas via linguistic and genetic similarities.....
the area in question represents the ancient areas of the Euganei ONLY in yellow



2- when the Veneti migrated to Veneto ( estimated by archeology to be 1200BC ) they fought the Euganei and these people fled into the alps. SOME of the Euganei became veneti by absorbtion into veneti society
Cato the roman historian states, the Euganei initially the 34 towns......so they seem great in number

3- the paper shows a map of G-L497 which is in rhaeti and "euganei" lands

4 - its logical if some Euganei entered Veneti society and the others entered Rhaetic society then surely as the paper states the genetics are similar in a great percentage of people.


OLd old papers will state the the Euganei where ligurian branch, but recent genetics have shifted them to a rhaetic branch especially since the Po river valley was inhabitable for living due to a higher water table.

thanks for the map AND EXPLANATIONS >> so things are a bit clearer to me -
concerning Ligurians I thin hey had more weight in Western half of Italy, (N-W and W- center) - mybe had they some cousins in SOuth even in Sicilia - I suppose they had a strong enough imput of Y-R1b-U152, mixed with older Y-HGs -
question: have you some data about today Y-G-L497 distribution in Eurasia IF POSSIBLE COMPARED TO OTHER Y-G ?

 

[Sile]

question: have you some data about today Y-G-L497 distribution in Eurasia IF POSSIBLE COMPARED TO OTHER Y-G ?

it is in the recent link ..........the austrian paper on G ...see the bottom of the paper

 

[slavisa777]

Hello, I am new here. I must say interesting forum and subjects.
Anyway, I have a question, and am sorry if it is somewhat distant.
Any of u with thinking on a amber trade map from Gimbutas, (still can't post links, but if u google - Основные пути торговли янтарем - result is seen in google images...) a route that goes along Tisza river, and in the direction to the question mark.
It's supposed to go across the Balkan about 1400. BC. Was wandering on any importance of this route around the time of Tacitus and up to the 7c.

 

[piero]

I'm a bit surprised by the tone of your post -
in a court of justice, it is the "demander" who has to prove the validity of the facts he evocates - here I'm like a "defender", it's not to me to prove something - I cannot DISPROVE what you say - I just say you DO NOT PROVE what you say and for me, according to common sense and historic facts, your very distorded theory is without any proof - MAYBE SOMETIME MORE SOLID FACTS AND LINKS BETWEEN THESE FACTS WILL PROVE YOU WERE RIGHT BUT TODAY IT IS NOT THE CASE - when it occurs, I shall accept without any vexation nor sadness - facts are facts - by the way, I never said these diverse Veneti have no common roots; I said that i think their roots and the subsequent separation between them are surely old enough and they lost early enough contact between them, at least concerning Brittany Veneti -
NO OFFENSE, but please, keep cool...

MOESAN my excuses, I didn't want to be aggressive, just clear. I'm really sorry. Here in Italy our University professors are so categorical and sure that there are no links between european Veneti outside Italy borders, but I never found a prove or just a scientifically expressed theory of this Adriatic Veneti autochthony. One week ago I was to an Archaeologist conference: he was the first honest archaeologist I met and told to the public that "we don't know the origins of Veneti".

 

[MOESAN]

"modern" venet from circa 780AD had a reverse of what you state, it had a X which went to a Z which ended up as S ........and it always retain the K

Could you give me some examples of these evolutions (places and dates) - I could be interesting - thanks beforehand -

 

[Sile]

Could you give me some examples of these evolutions (places and dates) - I could be interesting - thanks beforehand -

here is part of a private letter to me last week from a brazilian whose ancestors where veneti, take note he still uses X , as it is also still used in veneto/fruili/trentino today.
Also note that carlo Goldini introduced the S to replace the X

Nostri simili rexultadi in Eurogenes sugere che el mix te cuela zona xe asè vecio.

rexultadi is now resultati = results ..............the x and s still retain the zed sound.
xe , is still retained in veneto script today , but the modern is ze = it is ..............the x and z still retain the zed sound


Carlo Goldini a playright changed the Venetian X into a S for ease of the other regions of italy.
so his number 10 which is Diexe became Diese ..............but italian form is Dieci

a kiss in venetian is Baxi ............still used more so than the Goldini form of Basi ...........in italian it is Baci

Venice in Venetian is Venexia, with Goldini it became Venesia....under Italy due to the zed sound of X and S, it became Venezia

To conclude, although the S was used to replace the X, they are both still used today

..............................

In venetian K is the equal to italian CH in its uses



below is a current net site....english above and venetian below

Note: intro pages are written (when not translated) in "mainland venetian" language, with the venetian unitarian graphical system, and accented by following the rules you can find on the "how-to-read" page.
Nòda: ƚe pàxine de introdusion ƚe xé scrite in venesian de tèra-ferma oriental, in grafìa e acentàe conforme el manual de grafìa vèneta unidaria.


and

Please:
Allow the pages to work properly. Do not use the "reload" or "back" buttons. Do not open pages outside of their frames. Use the provided links on top of each page: "Serca da novo/New search" or "Home" to perform a new search in another language or for a taxon.

Prègo:

Ƚasa che ƚe pàxine ƚe laore come previsto. No stà doparar i botoni "recarga" o "indrìo". No sta vèrxer pàxine fora de 'l so cuadro. Dòpara i botoni a despoxision: "Serca da novo/New search" o "Home" par far na serca nova in altra lengua o co' altri critèri.

The dash on the L , is what is called the venetian vanishing L , it is not pronounced , only written

 

[MOESAN]

MOESAN my excuses, I didn't want to be aggressive, just clear. I'm really sorry. Here in Italy our University professors are so categorical and sure that there are no links between european Veneti outside Italy borders, but I never found a prove or just a scientifically expressed theory of this Adriatic Veneti autochthony. One week ago I was to an Archaeologist conference: he was the first honest archaeologist I met and told to the public that "we don't know the origins of Veneti".

I accept your excuses, it was not necessary but it proves you are correct - by the way, my answer was a "putting in order" giving a 1-1 party result - Long ago I had swallowed your post without any damage in my body -
if you ave well red my posts, I was not creating a theory, only debusking some arguments of one or another, not because I was absolutely AGAINST a theory, but AGAINST the too quickly built hazardous theories -
my 'credo' (not a certitude) is Veneti of Italy could have been a set akin to the Veneti of Poland, a set, maybe the core, settled in a central position in Europe, and linked to the Urnfield big moves (some scholars said it was ONLY a cultural spreading, but Coon and OTHERS wrote , with the help of skeletons surveys, that if NO perceptibe new population had entered Europe at these times, Urnfield period had seen big redistributions of populations - some skeletons in central-southern France seem confirming that) -
it's based upon little, a bit of Y-R1b-U152 in Western Poland, and some archelogical artefacts linking Poland and Villanova culture - investigating some Y-R1a could be fructuous too but I've no big data for now - bu H-HUBERT said Adriatic (not by force illyric) placenames had some echoes among the few vocbulary linked to some Lusacian sites (I lack details here) - so Veneti = proto-Slavics? NOT SURE AT ALL, rather an archaic I-Ean form kept "centroïdal", and further North, a replacement or convergence of language? No cristal bowl nor hene guts by me!
noswezh vad deoc'h!

 

[Sile]

Hello, I am new here. I must say interesting forum and subjects.
Anyway, I have a question, and am sorry if it is somewhat distant.
Any of u with thinking on a amber trade map from Gimbutas, (still can't post links, but if u google - Основные пути торговли янтарем - result is seen in google images...) a route that goes along Tisza river, and in the direction to the question mark.
It's supposed to go across the Balkan about 1400. BC. Was wandering on any importance of this route around the time of Tacitus and up to the 7c.

yes there was an amber trade from 2000BC

I suspect it was a relay trade system, the Aestii onto the Venedi onto, one the the germanic tribes onto the illyrians on the danube onto the veneti on the adriatic...........they ( veneti ) kept some for amulets for burials of the women and children ( men where cremated ) and the rest was traded onto the Phoenicians to go to egypt

 

[Regio X]

Quote from other thread: http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/31288-Coming-Soon-Neolithic-Anatolian-Genomes!!!

Now I think that J2 carriers played a important role in creating Indo European languages, greater then assumed. Usually people think that R carriers (R1a and R1b) are creators of Indo European languages. But my opinion is that J2 folks were significantly involved.

It surprises me the Y-DNA variation among provinces in Veneto: http://www.eupedia.com/genetics/regional_italian_y-dna_haplogroups.shtml (some sums exceed 100%, others are below, but ok)
If the numbers are consistent*, it would have a J2 frequency significantly bigger than its neighboring regions, and Treviso province would have a comparatively low frequency of R1b, high frequency of I1, about 45% of G+J+E+T, and incredible 10% of L-M20. Where did it come from? Phoenicians? Adriatic Veneti? Anyway, the numbers seem to support a bit Homer theory on Paphlagonia.

*Maybe there are errors. For example, the Eupedia page shows 0% of L-M20 in Val Badia, Italian Tyrol, based on Capelli et al., but http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_L-M20 shows 8,3 for the same local, based on Pichler and Thomas.

This L-M20 map doesn't seem very accurate, but it gives an idea of frequencies:
View attachment 7279

 

[Pax Augusta]

It surprises me the Y-DNA variation among provinces in Veneto: http://www.eupedia.com/genetics/regional_italian_y-dna_haplogroups.shtml (some sums exceed 100%, others are below, but ok)
If the numbers are consistent*, it would have a J2 frequency significantly bigger than its neighboring regions, and Treviso province would have a comparatively low frequency of R1b, high frequency of I1, about 45% of G+J+E+T, and incredible 10% of L-M20. Where did it come from? Phoenicians? Adriatic Veneti? Anyway, the numbers seem to support a bit Homer theory on Paphlagonia.

*Maybe there are errors. For example, the Eupedia page shows 0% of L-M20 in Val Badia, Italian Tyrol, based on Capelli et al., but http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_L-M20 shows 8,3 for the same local, based on Pichler and Thomas.

This L-M20 map doesn't seem very accurate, but it gives an idea of frequencies:

L20 in South Tyrol (both Romance and German speaking people) comes from Pichler 2006 and Thomas 2007, probably not included in Eupedia. L20 has clearly nothing to do with Phoenicians but with the people that settled the area from South Tyrol to Veneto before the IE. Euganei? The proto-Reatians?


Genetic Structure in Contemporary South Tyrolean Isolated Populations Revealed by Analysis of Y-Chromosome, mtDNA, and Alu Polymorphisms (2006)

http://www.bioone.org/doi/10.3378/0...d=ori:rid:crossref.org&rfr_dat=cr_pub=pubmed&

New genetic evidence supports isolation and drift in the Ladin communities of the South Tyrolean Alps but not an ancient origin in the Middle East.

http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v16/n1/full/5201906a.html

 

[Regio X]

L20 in South Tyrol (both Romance and German speaking people) comes from Pichler 2006 and Thomas 2007, probably not included in Eupedia. L20 has clearly nothing to do with Phoenicians but with the people that settled the area from South Tyrol to Veneto before the IE. Euganei? The proto-Reatians?


Genetic Structure in Contemporary South Tyrolean Isolated Populations Revealed by Analysis of Y-Chromosome, mtDNA, and Alu Polymorphisms (2006)

http://www.bioone.org/doi/10.3378/0...d=ori:rid:crossref.org&rfr_dat=cr_pub=pubmed&

New genetic evidence supports isolation and drift in the Ladin communities of the South Tyrolean Alps but not an ancient origin in the Middle East.

http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v16/n1/full/5201906a.html

Ave, Pax Augusta! Thanks for the links.
You're right. I noticed that, besides Treviso, L and T have a significant presence in East Liguria. Indeed, Euganei and Liguri would be related. I also saw some L-M20 STR markers from Oderzo-TV, and they're pretty different from the non-Europeans.
I checked the Boattini numbers (http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0065441), and they seem different from those presented by Eupedia.

 

[piero]

Also in English the anthropology of the ancient Veneti:
https://www.amazon.com/King-Arthurs...540111288&sr=8-1&keywords=piero+favero+arthur

 

[Pax Augusta]

Also in English the anthropology of the ancient Veneti:
https://www.amazon.com/King-Arthurs...540111288&sr=8-1&keywords=piero+favero+arthur

Is it you the author of the book?