Macedonians
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iapetoc
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DejaVu you are still WRONG
The data you Give includes areas as Tettovo were the main ethnicitie is ALBANIAN GEG
Areas like Monaster(Bitola) were Greeks Lived
And areas like Eugeleia(Yevgeli) were Greeks Lived,
If you considered that Albanians are 25-30 % of the population in Fyrom
and Have even 46% at nearby Gegs in Kossovo (E-V13)
THEN THE RESULTS ON SLAVIC MAKEDONIAN ARE MORE SIMILAR TO SERBIA AND BULGARIA THAN GREECE.
Besides the fall of J2 as we go north proves that Greek Makedonians never pass above Bardar iron gates (Demirkapi) as I already said
and the Treaty of 1913 is just a political trick,
cause the ancient Greek Makedonia Has common with Slavic Makedonia only the name,
only the E-V13 of albanians if it is expelled then The I2a2 raises to same with Serbia
the above results is nearGreek Makedonia Thessalia
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_y-dna_haplogroups.shtml
It is obvius that I2a is dropping Dramatically as we go south
The I2a mainly has to with areas of Slavonic speaking people,
The data you Give includes areas as Tettovo were the main ethnicitie is ALBANIAN GEG
Areas like Monaster(Bitola) were Greeks Lived
And areas like Eugeleia(Yevgeli) were Greeks Lived,
If you considered that Albanians are 25-30 % of the population in Fyrom
and Have even 46% at nearby Gegs in Kossovo (E-V13)
THEN THE RESULTS ON SLAVIC MAKEDONIAN ARE MORE SIMILAR TO SERBIA AND BULGARIA THAN GREECE.
Besides the fall of J2 as we go north proves that Greek Makedonians never pass above Bardar iron gates (Demirkapi) as I already said
and the Treaty of 1913 is just a political trick,
cause the ancient Greek Makedonia Has common with Slavic Makedonia only the name,
only the E-V13 of albanians if it is expelled then The I2a2 raises to same with Serbia
I1
I2a
I2b
R1a
R1b
G2a
J2
J1
E1b1b
T (+ L)
Q
N1c1
3.5
3.5
7
3.5
13.5
10
8
19.5
3
28
4
0
0
the above results is nearGreek Makedonia Thessalia
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_y-dna_haplogroups.shtml
It is obvius that I2a is dropping Dramatically as we go south
The I2a mainly has to with areas of Slavonic speaking people,
how yes no 2
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actually both your numbers and Garrick numbers are incorrect as in those researches results are for Macedonia and Serbia, not for Macedonians and Serbs...
Thing is that Macedona still has large Albanian minority.. big part of E-V13, I1 and J2b2 percentages in results for Macedonia comes from Albanians as it is evident from this work led by Macedonians scientists:
http://www.bjmg.edu.mk/UploadedImages/pdf/11-18.pdf
sample size was 211 ethnic Macedonians, 111 ethnic Albanians from Macedonia, and 21 others (Turks, Roma, Vlachs, Serbs ...)
_______________Macedonians__Albanians__other___total
E1b1b1a-M78_________15.6______28.8____14.3____19.8
E1b1b1b-M81 _________–_________1.8______– ____0.6
E1b1b1c1-M34________2.4________1.8______ –____2.0
G-M201______________3.8________2.7______4.8___3.5
H-M69_______________1.4________1.8_____14.3___2.3
1*(xI1,I2a,I2b1)-M170 __–_________1.8_____4.8___0.9
I1-M253______________1.9________6.3_____–_____3,2
I2a-P37b_____________27.5_______1.8_____–_____17.5
I2b1-M223____________1.9________1.8____4.8____2.0
J*(xJ1a,J2)-12f2_______3.3________1.8_____–_____2.6
J2*(xJ2a4b,J2b)-M172__4.7________2.7_____9.5____4.4
J2a4b-M67____________2.8________2.7_____9.5____3.2
J2b2-M241____________5.2________13.5____4.8____7.9
L-M22________________0.5_________–______–_____0.3
N1c-Tat______________0.5_________–______–_____0.3
P*(xR1)-92R7__________0.5_________–_____4.8____0.6
R1*-M173_____________0.5_________–______–_____0.3
R1a1-SRY1532_________14.2_______12.6____4.8____13.1
R1b1-P25_____________11.4_______18.0____23.8___14.3
T-M70________________1.9_________–_______–____1.2
-----------------------------------------------------------
TOTAL people__________211________111 ____21____343
btw. making minority group consisting of in total as low as 21 people (not enough sample for single group on narrow geographic area) of different origin is laughable...
anyway, this shows you that in Macedonia ethinc Macedonians are distinguished by I2a2 group same one that is dominant in Serbia, Bosnia, Hercegovina, Croatia and even Slovenia, while Albanians are distinguished by haplogroups E, J2b2 and I1... R1a and G having similar spread in Albanians and Macedonians is indication that it is an earlier spread...which is in correspondence with extra high R1a in Greek Macedonia... in other words Ancient Macedonians were probably dominantly R1a and G people...
R1b is significantly higher in Albanians, but is present in all groups meaning that probably Dardanians already had some R1b (as other Thracians did) and that Roman's invaders brought more of it (as Vlach's tend to show more R1b in south Balkan)
what distinguish Macedonians from other neighbouring populations is ~2% of haplogroup T, which is contrary to claim from Maciamo's table absent in Serbia as K* from work of Pericic maps to N+Q+L in work of Mirabal
we should compare genetics of FYR Macedonia with the one of Greek Macedonia...
but what is evident is that FYR Macedonians share dominant and distinguishing (the one that makes them stick out from environment) haplogroup with other south Slavs... so, if you want to prove continuity with ancioent Macedonians, you should focus on finding if there is continuity between south Slavs and ancient Macedonians...
Iapetoc
Yes, Dienekes Pontikos did a scientific analysis of the results and according to him, the population of Macedonia is very close to the population of Serbia (SER and SMA positions in the image).
I presented Dienekes's analysis on the post #315, gave a link and image and everyone can see and analyze.
how yes no
Ok.
But and I wrote that the data for Serbia and Macedonia and I was very clear that data are about a population of Serbia and Macedonia, and not on ethnicity.
And on another topic I made it clear that the former kingdoms and republics Yugoslavia had the similarity (someone can interpret that had a meaning).
how yes no 2
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yes
but I am worried how will Deja-Vu accept that Macedonians are just south Slavs or, in fact that they are mostly Serb related/derived people...
though he himself with his G haplogroup may indeed origin from ancient Macedonians.... and it would be nice twist if he finds out that Iapetoc is his close cousin...
how yes no
This is a problem, since the communists from 1945 wrongly taught them and what is now catching for the ancient Macedonians.
On the one hand today's FYROM Macedonians tend not to be as they are, ie. to run away from closest the South Slav mostly Serb related roots.
On the other hand they tend to be who they are not, ie. the greater Greeks than real Greeks.
DejaVu
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And Serbia is almost finished, now its Vojvodinas time to break off from the FANATICS. The truth is hurting Serbians or fake Serbs who dont know their history.
Better be what you are then pretend. You cant live without the Nationalists like Vojislav Šešelj. Serbia the land of criminality, drugdealers and history falsification that cries on Russias feet to help the poor fanatics.
Better be what you are then pretend. You cant live without the Nationalists like Vojislav Šešelj. Serbia the land of criminality, drugdealers and history falsification that cries on Russias feet to help the poor fanatics.
how yes no 2
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that's clear to everyone I think....
point is that there is distinguishing factor, and for FYRM Macedonians and other south Slavs it is I2a2
lol, you call Serbs fanatics...
but if in average FYR Macedonians are being just one tenth of being fanatical on the level that you are on this forum, perhaps FYR Macedonians are much more Serbs than Serbs - according to your definition of Serbs as FANATICS...
DejaVu
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Remember what it says in the bible, what goes around comes around.
Here are our brothers the Serbians and the Bulgars just watch the videos and see what they have done to the Macedonians.
Macedonia after WW1 and its liberation in 1941.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e-O_TVAAHSY
(Bulgarian liberation and new occupation)
Bulgarian terror over Macedonians during WWII
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VUUcixZEeRk
That is done to the Macedonians by their so-called brothers.
The real history will never be forgotten.
Here are our brothers the Serbians and the Bulgars just watch the videos and see what they have done to the Macedonians.
Macedonia after WW1 and its liberation in 1941.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e-O_TVAAHSY
(Bulgarian liberation and new occupation)
Bulgarian terror over Macedonians during WWII
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VUUcixZEeRk
That is done to the Macedonians by their so-called brothers.
The real history will never be forgotten.
how yes no 2
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Serbs never did massively kill Macedonians... the crime of Serbs is only that they always saw Macedonians as what they probably are - Serb related or even Serb derived people
Bulgarians did massively kill both Serbs and Macedonians in both world wars... but in case of Serbs besides Bulgarians they were massively killed in both world wars also by Croats, but most Serbs still see Croats as brothers... while Bulgarians are considered different people and to Bulgarians only link are Macedonians that by some mystery seems to speak somewhat alike to Bulgarians...
I am fine with Macedonians being separate nations, most people from Serbia are... and I really like Macedonians as most people from Serbia do... in fact, Macedonians are probably our favorite neighbours... especially as many people in Serbia also have partial origin from Macedonia
but your posts here are a bit "like cacao" if you understand what I mean
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MdIDMzbvrf4 (read lyrics)
or to translate it for others they are like an illusion
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=21VbKgOM0gg
though, I have to confess that you and Iapetoc are great pair, like yin and yang, so you must be family
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aNBbQ6bBJik
DejaVu
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The posts are related, when people are connecting thru genetics that in real life, they dont even have same nationality. That means learn the past and live in the present and the future.
Epithesi sto leoforeio (Dinamo Zagreb-Paok)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CzJJPwDAHe8
(Greek? PAOK supporters in bus on fire, some started to speak Macedonian "slavic").
Hitler: "Zu dem Operationen in Jugoslawien wurden ohne die Berücksichtigung deutsche Volk Zugehörigkeit so wie der Kroaten und die Mazedonier die soweit Sofort Frei gelassen waren"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lsCsoUVvkJw
Hitler: "In the course of the operations against Yugoslavia, without counting the soldiers of German stock or the Croats and Macedonians who were immediately released"
Epithesi sto leoforeio (Dinamo Zagreb-Paok)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CzJJPwDAHe8
(Greek? PAOK supporters in bus on fire, some started to speak Macedonian "slavic").
Hitler: "Zu dem Operationen in Jugoslawien wurden ohne die Berücksichtigung deutsche Volk Zugehörigkeit so wie der Kroaten und die Mazedonier die soweit Sofort Frei gelassen waren"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lsCsoUVvkJw
Hitler: "In the course of the operations against Yugoslavia, without counting the soldiers of German stock or the Croats and Macedonians who were immediately released"
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Serbs never terrorized in Macedonia.
And this whole story here is stupid because it turns out that the main problem is antiquity.
And the only thing we try to say is to keep mind.
As much as someone tried from the SlavoMacedonians to create Ancient Macedonians.
But today Macedonia FYROM becomes a bi-national country, since the number of Albanians increased, so that they now make up 25 to 30% of the population.
The origin of Albanians is different from the Slav Macedonians which clearly show different haplogroups.
And if we talk about Macedonia today Albanians are unavoidable factor due to their numbers and influence, which is further strengthened by the Ohrid Agreement, so that haplogroups of Albanians and in general the impact Albanians in Macedonia FYROM is inevitable in the further considerations.
how yes no 2
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btw. this clip is clearly Bulgarian propaganda in order to distance Macedonians from Serbs... it does not have much to do with reality... search history data, do not take youtube clips for granted.. you tube clips regarding history or politics are usually propaganda clips made by some fanatics or even teens, completely disregarding the facts.....
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I can understand your anti-Greek sentiment, as Slavic Macedonians in north Greece were forced to speek Greek and become Greeks...
I can understend your anti-Bulgarian sentiment, as Macedonians do not exist in Bulgaria anymore, they are now Bulgarians....
But the Macedonians from FYRM, the one that were in Serb states are only ones who now have own state and are not assimilated... so no, I do not understand your aggressive attitude towards Serbs.... In Serbia most people have very positive emotions regarding Macedonians, and many people have partial origin from Macedonia....
my point is if you want to prove continuity between Macedonians and ancient Macedonians, you can as well start by proving continuity of other south Slavs with previous inhabitants, as Macedonians are dominantly of same origin as other south Slavs...
back to haplogroups, R1a is according to Klyosov much much older in Macedonia, Bosnia and Serbia than in the rest of the world taken together....therefore it cannot be recent arrival....
and since R1a is also unusually high in Greek Macedonians,
it seems obvious that ancient Macedonians likely have been R1a dominant people...
in some sense.... many people who have later become Slavic do have R1a haplogroup, and since that haplogroup origins from Serbia, Bosnia and Macedonia...in that sense you can see ancient Macedonians as genetically related to pre-Slavic people or even as origin of Slavic people.... but R1a in FYRM and Serbia is today bellow 15%...
so that does not imply genetic continuity....
for genetic continuity, you need I2a2 to be part of ancient Macedonians heritage, and I really don't know wheter that was really the case...
for culture continuity, you need to prove that ancient Macedonians did speak language akin to Slavic, while only their elite was Hellenic.... (e.g. to help you a bit: Macedonian king who was at first not allowed to take part in Olympic games because Macedonians are not Hellenic, did not use as argument that Macedonians are Hellenic, but that his family is Hellenic...after claiming that, he was allowed to participate... so, this incident makes it very clear that his familly was Greek, but that nation they ruled over was not...but this fact still does not relate those people to pre-Slavic people...and in fact you should search for exact phrasing in Herodotous work in order to verify story above....)
continuity of south Slavs from previous inhabitants is possible, but it is not a fact, and not even a strong theory...
personally, I do believe that ancient Macedonians were Serb related
because I think that eponym ancestor of both was queen of Sheba, also known as Makeda in south of her lands, and Balkis in Arabic countries... which for me fits perfectly with Macedonians being south of Serbs, and area getting name Balkan when it was under Arab influenced Ottoman empire...
but I cannot claim that is truth or not, as it is just an idea...
most of your posts are also based on ideas various people have....
ideas do not prove anything, they are just guidelines about possible flow of events....
How yes no
Since DejaVu I have experienced serious offense but I never came back nearly equal measure. I really try to respect his integrity, although he does not deserve because they do not respect mine.
However, sentence by sentence, I’m trying to give him the key issues which, unfortunately, in Macedonia FYROM some people do not take seriously enough.
Communists when, in 1945 formed what they wanted on the Socialist Republic of Macedonia, not even dreamed that one day it will appear research of haplogroups and many other things and that will be used with much more knowledge.
Today, the Macedonian elite (which is not only the government), is dedicated to all antiquity, including a major project Skopje in 2014 where more and does not know that the famous figure of the ancient world, especially ancient Greece, will come across a statue which should highlight “the fact about ancient Macedonian origin” and so on. But, the story can break the the head of its creators and can brings FYROM Macedonia in a hopeless situation.
I will gave one example. And yesterday and today has a very prominent researchers in the west, and not just to the west, who believe that Alexander the Macedonian was Illyrian/Albanian, and that ancient Macedonians were Illyrian/Albanian tribe. Greek scientists actually have a problem in dealing with these concepts, much greater than with the Slav Macedonians, and one of the reasons is the similarity of haplogroups Greeks and Albanians.
One key finding in Pakistan, what I will write is completely blew away any idea of Slav Macedonian scholars on the origin of Alexander the Great, and gave wings to the Albanians more say about Alexander's Illyrian/Albanian origin.
To be continued
how yes no 2
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I am pretty sure that key finding is one in zillion recent inventions of Albanian fanatics ala deja-vu, as I am sure that relation between Pakistan and Albanians can't be your finding, I have searched keywords on google... and have chosen random you tube link about issue
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nwcOB5VzS1A
I didnot watch something so funny for long time... oh, man it is hilarious what fanatics can trully believe in...
they claim how Kalash, burusho (Hunza) and Pamirians who all claim descend from armies of Alexander Great are Albanians based on stupid arguments of type they are white, and Pamir = pa+ mir = nice view in albanian, Burrusho comes from Burre - man in Albanian, and Hunza comes from word Hundez that means "small noise" which is lol about acustic properties of place where they live... of course they did not bother to check whether those names have some meaning in native languages...but they used ridiculous alike Albanian word coins to explain them...I am sure that can be done in any language
Pa+mir = well(than) + peace in Serbian
Pam+ir is where Pamela from Ireland was on vacation in 323 BC..
Hundez & Hunza & small noise- are Huns also Albanians that made small noise when they farted?
as for Burrusho, I guess Boers (Boer is dutch word and is pronounced as Bur) in south Africa must as well be Albanians...
than key proof Sarplaninac dog breed (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Šarplaninac) from Sar mountain (south Serbia that is Kosovo, northwest Macedonia, northeast Albania) that they call Illyrian dog... now that dog sort was likely on Sar mountain also in time of Alexander Macedonian...so it is normal that some of them were taken with army.... that proves nothing of Albanians being involved in contest... in fact, Afghanistan is also place where Seneca's Serians lived in arc from northwest China to India.... and Sar mountain is named after Scordisci, which to me indicates clearly that Scordisci were Serians....
another key proof are horns... Alexandar the great has horns on some representation and Skenderbeg has as well on another... besides that being likely just an artistic freedom what can I say, Sherden (sea peoples who left toponym Serbonian bog /Serbonis/Sirbonis in Egypt) did as well have horns... ...so this can point to Serb origin... but it doesnot, as vikings and many other people carried horns...
and btw, Skenderbeg is anyway of disputed origin... largely Slavic.... as his older brothers were Stanisha, Reposh, and Kostandin, and his sisters were Mara, Jelena, Angjelina, Vlajka, and Mamica.[1] which are all clearly Slavic names that have nothing to do with Albanians... his last name does sound Greek to me though...
as for Pa+mir = nice view
Burusho = people
Hunza = nice sound
I am still laughing....
hope you have stronger evidence than these you tube jokes...
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