Macedonians
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drsibel
Junior Member
My mother's parents were immigrants from Thessaloniki in 1924. My grandfather always said we were Macedonians. Neither Greek nor Bulgarian. Our ancestral land is in Vodina(edesse), and we are Macedonians. There were no Greeks where they lived, but there were Bulgarians.Most tormented by Bulgarian gangs. In the end, they were subject to forced migration.As someone who came from there, I wanted to write something.
What you wrote is not correct historically. The ancient writers who first described the Macedonians ALL described them as Greeks. If they weren't they would have described them as other than Greeks. And we are talking about Hesiod, Herodotus, and Thucydides. So please stop the false claims about Macedonians.
Genetics do not define an ethnicity! Why even talk about it?
"An ethnic group or ethnicity is a grouping of people who identify with each other on the basis of shared attributes that distinguish them from other groups such as a common set of traditions, ancestry, language, history, society, culture, nation, religion, or social treatment within their residing area."
I don't see genetics in this definition from Wikipedia. So why are you even considering genetics?
Does the American nation feel French/Dutch/English/Porto Rican/etc or do they feel American because they share a common "set of traditions, ancestry, language, history, society, culture, nation, religion, or social treatment"?
The ancient Macedonians self-declared as Greeks. There are multiple instances from Alexander I all the way to Philip V. Who are we to deny how they felt? Isn't an ethnicity based on self-identification? If not, then the so-called modern 'Macedonians' who feel Macedonian have a much weaker position since their ancestors came to the Balkans in the 6th c AD, and these people are a new ethnicity which evolved a little over a century ago (cf. Eugene Borza).
"An ethnic group or ethnicity is a grouping of people who identify with each other on the basis of shared attributes that distinguish them from other groups such as a common set of traditions, ancestry, language, history, society, culture, nation, religion, or social treatment within their residing area."
I don't see genetics in this definition from Wikipedia. So why are you even considering genetics?
Does the American nation feel French/Dutch/English/Porto Rican/etc or do they feel American because they share a common "set of traditions, ancestry, language, history, society, culture, nation, religion, or social treatment"?
The ancient Macedonians self-declared as Greeks. There are multiple instances from Alexander I all the way to Philip V. Who are we to deny how they felt? Isn't an ethnicity based on self-identification? If not, then the so-called modern 'Macedonians' who feel Macedonian have a much weaker position since their ancestors came to the Balkans in the 6th c AD, and these people are a new ethnicity which evolved a little over a century ago (cf. Eugene Borza).
They absolutely did not!
DNA of modern-day Hellenes is Italian more than anything.
During the reign of Alexander the Great, the Macedonians spoke their own native language, as the native language language of Alexander the Great was not understood by the ancient Greeks (Quintus Curtius Rufus, VI, 9, 37 ). Similarly, Plutarch points out that Alexander spoke to his fellow countrymen in Macedonian: "he [Alexander] called out aloud to his guards in the Macedonian language, which was a certain sign of some great disturbance in him" (Plutarch, Alexander, 51).
Revisionist history! Macedonians conquered the Greeks at Chaeronea, they never felt "Greek" since it didn't even exist at the time. Macedonia existed on the periphery of Hellas or Hellada. Those people referred to themselves as Hellenes. The insecurity amongst modern-day Hellenes is comical.
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Vallicanus
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You had better back up that strange claim!
No. I believe he was talking about actual Hellenes being Southern Macedonians.
It was the Romans that started referring to the territory as "Greece" (Graeci), and it wasn't until Late Antiquity (c. 3rd - 7th centuries) that Hellenes referred to themselves as "Greek." Persians called them "Yaunas," as did the Hebrews (Yevanim) Turks, and Arabs, so there was no "Greece" during the time of Alexander the Great. I just don't understand why present-day Southern Macedonians are so insecure. Well, I guess I do, they can't come to grips with the fact that they were conquered by "barbarians." They’re having an existential identity crisis.
Not strange at all, my friend. All I meant is they have very similar DNA. MyHeritage, as an example, groups Greeks and Southern Italians (Sicilians) together. Whether Sicilians migrated to Helles or vice versa, or a combination of both, who knows. I read somewhere that there was also strong DNA tie to Ethiopians as well. I'll post if I find it. People traveled wherever they wanted… borders are a political creation.
Vallicanus, I found what I was looking for:
"Greeks are found to have a substantial relatedness to sub-Saharan (Ethiopian) people, which separate them from other Mediterranean groups. Both Greeks and Ethiopians share quasi-specific DRB1 alleles, such as *0305, *0307, *0411, *0413, *0416, *0417, *0420, *1110, *1112, *1304 and *1310. Genetic distances are closer between Greeks and Ethiopian/sub-Saharan groups than to any other Mediterranean group and finally Greeks cluster with Ethiopians/sub-Saharans in both neighbour joining dendrograms and correspondence analyses. The time period when these relationships might have occurred was ancient but uncertain and might be related to the displacement of Egyptian-Ethiopian people living in pharaonic Egypt."
PMID: 11260506 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
NCBI SOURCE: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...ve&db=PubMed&list_uids=11260506&dopt=Abstract. NCBI Website: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/. Other NCBI genetic researches on the Cretans, Palestinians, Morocans, Algerians, Spanish, Basques, Italians, Mexican Mazatecans, Thais, Lebanese, etc.
Vallicanus
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This is nonsense from an old discredited study.
Please provide proof it was discredited.
Vallicanus
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You are a troll. I don't countenance ignorant time-wasters.
Omino
Regular member
Literally zero African admixture found in Ancient or modern Greeks
This hilarious nonsense has been debunked long time ago
Omino
Regular member
Definitely another brainwashed fakedonian slav
You have no idea of my ethnicity, yet you feel enboldened to try a smear. I think it says quite a lot about you, however. You and the other two Hellenes show the same traits as so many of your countrymen, manic insecurity wrapped in petulant insignificance.
Not a troll in the least. I'm simply requesting proof of how the study I referred to was debunked. And you and the other two tortoises simply saying "it’s been debunked" is not enough. Show proof. Simple request.