Macedonians

Vlachs = Roumans = Modern Greeks

"It is an unpleasant duty to have to tell one's friends home truths, but the Greek claim to Macedonia, at least as regards the greater part of the interior of the country, is a dream. In some of the towns there is a fair Greek population, but even in that case, as in Monastir, for example, the STATISTICS REST ON AN ARTIFICIAL BASIS. The truth is that a LARGE NUMBER of those described as Greeks are REALLY ROUMANS. Till within recent years Hellenism found a fertile field for propaganda among the representatives of the gifted Romance-speaking race of the Pindus region. Today JANINA HAS QUITE FORGOTTEN ITS ROUMAN ORIGIN, and has become a center of Hellenism. Athens, the nearest civilized center, offered natural attractions to the quick-witted mercantile element in the towns. But, for good is expended by Greek committees in the endeavor to gain recruits for Greek nationality. Parents are actually paid to send their children to the Greek schools." - Sir Arthur Evans, 1903.
 
Your biggest fault is that you are calling all your neighbours fake while "macedonians" (bulgarians) are the only true people in the balkans. This is why FYROM will change its name, because of people like you and your mentality. ;)
 
Dejavu you lost all your arquements

1 Ancient Makedonians were Greeks
2 Medieval Makedonians were Greeks

3 There is no slavo-Makedonian Minority in Greece
(7000 votes to 2 000 000 Greek Makedonian)

4 Your alphabet and your language is cyrillic and Bulgarian Dialect

5 all countries among them Greece accept your indepedence but not your claims

6 we were we are and will be here to say who the True Makedonian is

7 by claiming name and land you win only enemies in area, its pitty, cause even Bulgarians dont want you any more


you even make enemies your own people the Bulgarians

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XIkXbuY6Hag

all you create is hate, and you posses land that belongs to Albania


keep that way, a lie can't help you make friends

watch that carefully
its your President of Democracy Gligorov admiting that you are slavs, SlavoMakedonians

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TnUxYp6eDek



Even Gotse Deltchev,the famous Macedonian revolutionary leader,whose nome de guerre was Ahil (Achilles) "refers to the Slavs of Macedonia as 'Bulgarians' in an offhanded manner without seeming to indicate that such a designation was a point of contention" (Perry 1988:23).In his correspondence Gotse Deltchev often states simple and clearly,"We are Bulgarians" (Mac Dermott 1978:192,273).

go ahead DejaVu make your pray
Svetitelot Tito
Hvala Tito za stoca ..... i imeto ........

Dejavu right now i am going to drink a suvo vino od tikves
Grenaz Bel and shine my kalashnikov

if you want tell me to send a good Naousa or a Georgiadi or an Agioritiko (mount Athos) bottle of wine
best quality all
just ask me i will
besides as a trully balkan I make my own raki, want some of that?
 
Greeks are christian Turks.

1. Macedonians were always Macedonians.
2. Medieval Macedonians were Macedonians.
3. There is no slavo-macedonian minority only ethnic Macedonians.
4. The language is Macedonian and made by Macedonians.
5. Macedonians dont care what other think they know what they are and that is Macedonians are Macedonians and Macedonia is Macedonia.
6. Greeks are christian Turks.
7. Greek language is mixed turkish language.

You lost all claims I posted the evidence you failed like the other fake Greeks.
Be proud of what you are christian Turk.


It is less known that the Ottomans were dividing the Population by their Religious affiliation, not Ethncity. So the Greeks are the Patriarchist affiliated Population, Bulgarians are the Exarchat affiliated Population, Jews are the Hebrew affiliated Population etc.
The League of the Nations had not visited Aegean Macedonia and did not participate at all in conducting these statistics. Greece here refers to the Macedonians as "bulgarisants", which means "those who pretend to be Bulgarians" and obviously non-Bulgarians. However, Greece uses many other names in falsifying the identity of the Macedonians. Slavophones, Slav Macedonians, Makedoslavs, Slav Greeks, and Bulgarisants, are only some of the names that prove Greece's unpreparess in this mean falsification of the Macedonian people and language.
 
Considering the invading turks were muslims, and in islam it calls for the death penalty if you leave their "religion", I don't think your claims make sence ;)
 
Bulgars were Huns (Balkars)
they dissapear but they left the idea of an autonomus state
war with byzantine never stoped that movement of indipedence

Thracian people of the north and west accept a small serbianism, and create a new accent to slavonization more,
but words like bol (bull) is ancient Tyrrrshenian
ancient Greeks use the word tauros in south and Volinthros (Bολινθρος) in areas were Tyrrshenian were spoken
in koine became βους -vous bous and vous is the same with bo and bol
find out how may other words you have
in a disgussion with a Thracologist in bulgaria we found 1300 words in Greek and 2200 in bulgarian language that are Tyrsshenian origin, even serbian and albanian have Tyrrshenian enough, also Daco-Romanian.
find them and don't listen to any stupid propaganda,
modern Bulgarians soon wiil claim that they are slavonized Thracians.
and the same for you the Makedonia dream is at its end
soon both countries they will reclaim Thracian ancestors.

find Hesychius of Alexandria Lexicon,
it has ancient Makedonian words,
there you will learn the Language of Alexander.
 
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]As a start let us look at the name of Macedonia. [/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Modern Greece constantly turns to ancient Greek mythology to justify their theory. According to one source, the land was named Macedonia after Macedon, the son of Zeus and Thia; a second version claims that the name was derived from Macedon, one of the ten sons of the god Aeolus; a third version says that Macedon was the son of someone called Likaon, and according to a fourth one, Macedon was the son of the Egyptian god Osiris. Which of these four versions can we trust? Ulrich Wilken, a German historian, states that the Greek adherence to old myths is an attempt to justify their present views, i.e. lacking proofs of the Greek thesis, they resort to mythology, legends and tradition.

Furthermore, since the Greek people do not really believe in the mythical origin of the name of Macedonia, a new explanation is being forced; namely that the root of the name, mak- is of Doric origin and means 'long' or 'tall' and its derivatives, Makednos or Makedanos, mean 'tall people'. These interpretation have been attributed to Herodotus, the Father of History, as Greek scholars call him. The aim here is to link the Macedonian with the Dorian people, the latter being claimed to be one of the Macedonian tribes. However, when it comes to proving the Doric origin of the Macedonians, or vice versa, Herodotus has no arguments to offer and therefore turns to traditions. This view is also supported by Prof D. Pantermalis, an archeologist, who wrote the following in the Greek newspaper Neos kosmos of 14th November 1988, published in Melbourne, Australia: "We have mentioned earlier a tradition which claims the Dorians to have been descended from the Makedons or Makednos. Herodotus must have come by this information either through evidence he himself had collected in some of the Doric towns or through the story of an ancient epic by Aegimius..."

Furthermore, Prof. D. Pantermalis also gave an interview published in Neos kosmos of 28th February 1991. Asked why foreign scholars were reserved over the question, the archeologist answered: "There are certain matters which require further clarification, and unfortunately certain interpretations in the past well as today have been wrongly based on such unclarified matters. Thus, for example, ancient texts often speak about the Macedonians and the Greeks, as two separate nations and we ought to differentiate between them. I would also add a more recent example: we speak of the Greeks and the Cypriots." Needless to say, this is only a superficial example, since, when we speak a Macedonian we do not mean a Greek from Macedonia, but one descended from Macedonia by origin and by nationality.

The Greek historian, D. Kanatsulis, disagrees with the interpretations given by Prof. Pantermalis. In his History of Macedonia until Constantine the Great published in Salonica in 1964, on page 67 D. Kanatsulis writes that the Dorian and the Macedonian were two different peoples, although both appear on territory of Macedonia at almost the same time. On page 12 of this publication we read: "On the descent of the Illyrians and some other peoples in the 12th and 11th centuries BC, the Dorians were forced to move further south and majority of them settled on the Pelloponnesos whereas the Macedonians stayed in Western Macedonia."
D. Kanatsulis emphasizes that the Macedonians had a strong feeling of constituting a separate ethnic group not only during the time of the independent Macedonian state, but also during the Roman era. "The Macedonians," he says, were primarily citizens of the state and only after that members of the municipality where they were born or where they lived. Thus, in the official documents in which all names were entered, the personal name was followed by the nationality - Macedonian, and then came the birthplace or the place of residence, for example: a Macedonian from Aegea, a Macedonian from Edessa, etc." (page 82).

Similarly ancient Macedonian historians and writers, though writing in the common language (a blend of ancient Greek and the local Macedonian when signing their names always added that they were Macedonian language); as, for example: Chrisogonis from Edessa, a Macedonian; Adaios the Macedonian; Antipatris the Macedonian. (Prof Photis Petsas: A Journey in Northern Greece, Elinikos voras, February 1976). Not one of them wrote that he was a Hellene.
Now, back to the name of Macedonia. Looking at Ilios, a Greek encyclopedia periodical, on page 801 we find the chapter entitled 'The History of Macedonia'. Its third Paragraph begins with the words: "The Macedonians or Macedons inhabited this territory and called it Macedonia...," which confirms that before the arrival of the Macedonians the territory had had other names (Imatia, Aeordea, Almopia and perhaps others) and that the Macedonian newcomers named it Macedonia. Another archeologist, Prof Photis Petsas, gives even a more detailed account: "Macedonia was so named after the Macedonian People in the year 700 BC, who used to inhabit the territory to the west of the Vermion Mountains. What interests us today;" says Prof Petsas, "is that the Macedonians gave their own name to the land, calling it Macedonia, and expanded it in the south to Mount Olympus, in the west to the Pindus Mountain, in the east to the river Nestos (the Mesta) and to the Erigon in the north." (Prof Photis Petsas: Macedonia and the Macedonians..., Elinikos voras, 12th February 1978).

The ancient Greek man of letters, Isocrates, claims that there were no grounds for the identification of Ancient Macedonia with Ancient Greece, nor the Ancient Macedonians with the Ancient Greeks. In his book Filip (pp l07-108), Isocrates places Macedonia outside the boundaries of Greece and considers the Macedonians non-Greek tribesmen. Both ancient and contemporary geographers and historians, such as Eforos, Pseudoskilaks, Dionisios Kalifondas, Dikearhos, Athineos and others, state that the northern boundaries of Greece begin at the Amvrakis Bay in the west and go to the Peneos River in the east (Makedonia, an anthology, Athens, 1982, p.50). In this connection, the modern Greek scholar J. Kaleris writes: "In the middle of the 5th century BC, the name Macedonia was given to the land spreading from Lake Lychnida in the west, the Strymon River in the east and to the Erigon and Vardar Rivers in the north (The Language of the Macedonians, an anthology, Athens, 1992). According to historians and geographers mentioned above, the territories north of a line Amvrakis Bay to the River Peneos were inhabited by the Macedonian people (same Anthology, p. 122). The ancient geographer, Ptolemy, gives an even more precise description of the boundaries of Macedonia, saying that in the north they reached the Sar (Skardos) Mountains, in the north-east the Pirin (Orbilos) Mountains and in the south the Peneos River.
If these are the recognized boundaries of Macedonia, then how could that encompassed by the Mountains of Kajmakcalan, Kozuf, Belasica and Sar be denied the name Macedonia, even though, under the Treaty of Bucharest, a part of Macedonia was allotted to Greece? Referring to this problem, the Honorary President of the Communist Party of Greece, Harilaos Florianis, says in an interview: "Are we trying to say that 39% of the geographical territory of Macedonia is 'Skopje'? Isn't that, in fact, a section of the territory of Macedonia?" (Rizospastis, 2nd September, 1992).

Certain Greek scholars lacking a critical eye and disregarding historical arguments, consider the ancient Macedonians as Greeks and their language a Greek dialect. However, anyone looking at the facts with an open mind will realize that this is far from being true. Authentic evidence shows that the ancient Greeks regarded the Macedonian people as barbarians and Macedonia a barbaric land. This is also what the two coryphaei of Greek history, Thucydides and Demosthenes thought of ancient Macedonians. As a matter of fact, the ancient Greeks considered all non-Greek people barbarian and their land barbaric. Thus in his third Philippic, Demosthenes states: "Ay, and you know this also, that the wrongs which the Greeks suffered from the Lacedaemonians or from us, they suffered at all events at the hands of true-born sons of Greece, and they might have been regarded as the acts of a legitimate son, born to great possessions, who should be guilty of some fault or error in the management of his estate: so far he would deserve blame and reproach, yet it could not be said that it was not one of the blood, not the lawful heir who was acting thus. But if some slave or superstitious bastard had wasted and squandered what he had no right to, heavens! How much more monstrous and exasperating all would have called it! Yet they have no such qualms about Philip and his present conduct, though he is not only no Greek, nor related to the Greeks, but not even a barbarian from any place that can be named with honor, but a pestilent knave from Macedonia, whence it was never yet possible to buy a decent slave ..." (Demosthene Crationes, IX, p.26, and Istorija diplomatije, vol.1, p.49).
Further evidence that the Macedonians were not Hellenes can be of the Manifesto of Polyperchon, regent to the Macedonian throne and envoy to the Greek city-states in the year 319 BC, where we read: "Our ancestors [meaning the Macedonians - author's note) were always kind to the Hellenes and intend to continue their good ways and give proof of our goodwill towards the Greek people." (Istorija diplomatije, p. 53, reference taken from Diodorus Siculus Bibliotheka historika, XVIII, p. 55).

The modern Greek scholar, Karagatsis, makes his contribution to the clarification of the question whether the ancient Macedonians were Greek or not. The master work of this respected author, History of the Greek People, 1952, raised a great commotion in the camp of the nationalistically oriented intellectuals of Greece. Karagatsis, however, disregarded the burden of tradition and mythology and claimed that reality was different (p. 314). "It is the King of the Macedonians," he says, "who is the hegemon of the Greeks. The Congress is summoned by the hegemon, but is never chaired by him, because the hegemon is not Greek." (p. 340).
Many circles in Greece turned against Karagatsis. Thus Stefanos Hrisos, a critic, states the following in his article in the Salonica newspaper Makedonia: "I believe that it is a moral obligation of every Greek, particularly those in Northern Greece, to raise his voice and demand that this book by Karagatsis should not leave the boundaries of Greece or be translated into other languages, and, if possible, be withdrawn from the shops. We might have expected such bad language from our neighbors but never from a Greek writer..."
Last year, during the heavy Greek-wide campaign against the international recognition of the Republic of Macedonia, a collection entitled The Language of the Macedonians was published, which comprised contributions by distinguished university professors, the purpose of which was to boost the Greek thesis that the ancient Macedonians were Greek people and spoke the Greek language.

However, even in such a publication one finds concessions that the Macedonians in fact spoke a language different from the Greek.
Ana Panaiotou, for example, in the article 'The Language of Captions in Macedonia', says that "the Macedonians communicated among themselves in the Koine (common) language; the use of the Macedonian dialect was shrinking and became limited to conversations within a family or within small tribal circles. The last extant records on the Macedonian dialect," Panaiotou continues, "date from the first century BC" This author also informs us that the oldest facts on the Macedonian language date from the fifth century BC With the arrival of Alexander the Great that language stopped being the means of communication. "People used this language," Panaiotou says, "at moments of anger or great excitement and when only Macedonians were present" (p. 187). To support her statement, Ana Panaiotou turns to Plutarch, who claims that while killing Cleitus, at a moment of great distress, Alexander the Great "cried out in the Macedonian language" (Plutarch, Vii parallili, chapter 'Alexander the Great' - eighth installment in the periodical Ilios, 20th March 1954).
Ana Panaiotou also draws attention to the example of Eumenes, an officer in Alexander's army. He himself was not Macedonian, but once, after an illness, when walking among his Macedonian soldiers, he greeted them in the Macedonian language. She also mentions that Queen Cleopatra had lessons in Macedonian. In the same collected edition, Prof. J. Kaleris says that "the Macedonian language was often used with the purpose of winning the trust of the Macedonian people." In the periodical Mesiniaka, J. Kordatos, a historian and sociologist, undeniably declares that the ancient Macedonians spoke a language different from Greek.

Blinded by their fanaticism, the Greek nationalists categorically deny the Macedonians of today the right to bear that name; instead, they suggest names like Dardanians, Sclavins and the like. when the ancient Macedonian people arrived on the Balkan Peninsula, according to accepted sources, they retained their old name. This, however, was not the case with the modern Macedonians; when they settled in Macedonia in the 5th and 6th centuries AD, they still bore their tribal names - Sagudats, Rinhins, Smolyans, Brsyaks, etc. Gradually and spontaneously, these tribes took on the name of the region they had inhabited or, perhaps, of the people living there, who began to become assimilated with the newcomer Slavs, Pechenese, Kumans and others. Many Byzantine chronicle writers, such as Georgios Monahos, Leon the Dean, Ivan the Geometrician, Ana Comnena and Georgios Kedrinos mention the Macedo-nian Slavs. Even Emperor Constantine himself writes about the Macedonian people (Makedones); Leon the Dean refers to them as the ton Makedonon; Nikiforos Vrionos speaks of one Vasilios Kurtina as the anir Makedon; Ana Comnena says that someone called Tornik is a Makedon, etc. (Stjepan Antoljak, Samoilovata drzava, Skopje, 1969, pp 78-80).

Despite the frequent conquests first by Byzantium, then by the Bulgar and the Serb Kingdoms and finally by the Ottoman Empire, the name Macedonian persisted in use. Thus the European traveler Bertrand de la Brokier wrote in 1432 that the Macedonian people were the predominant population of Macedonia, differentiating them from the Greeks, the Bulgars and the Serbs (Jordan Ivanov; Bqlgarite v Makedonia, Sofia 1917, pp. 109-110). Similarly, the Venetian marine officer, Angiolello, who traveled via Macedonia on his way to Constantinople, regarded the Macedonians as different from the Greek people. In his diary Angiolello wrote: "On 14th August, the Great Master dropped anchor off the coast of Mount Athos, a mountain on which there are many monasteries and Christian monks, some of them Greek, others Macedonian or Vlach." He, then, goes on to say: "Both Greek and Macedonian people live there..." (K Merdzhios, Mnimia makedonikis istorias). Furthermore, the Regulations and the Constitution of the Razlog and the Kresna Uprisings in 1876 and 1878, as well as the documents of the interim government of Macedonia of 1880, clearly define the nationality of the Macedonian people. Terms like Macedonian Uprising, Macedonian army, Macedonian people leave no doubt as to the national denomination of the Macedonian people.

Greece manifested territorial aspirations towards Macedonia soon after it became an independent state. Various societies, such as the Association for the Promotion of Greek Literacy and, later, the armed gangs operating in Macedonia and fighting the so-called Macedonian war, had a sole purpose of converting the Macedonian population into Greek and if reeducation did not produce the expected results, they resorted to using arms. In this connection, Joannis Kordatos has written the following: "Bulgaria and Greece, as well as Serbia, sent soldiers to Macedonia in order to change the national affinity of the local population..."
"A large percentage of the farmers in Macedonia," Kordatos continues, "spoke a Slavonic dialect, using a lot of Greek and Turkish words; however, the essence of the dialect was Slavonic. The Slavo-Macedonian dialect was the dominant language in many areas in Macedonia. In a survey which Blunt, the British consul in Salonica, conducted in 1888 and printed in the following year in the English Blue Book, we find that the Greeks constituted the majority in the coastal belt, in Ber, Lagadin, Ser and Zihnen. But the inland areas of Macedonia were inhabited by Slavophones..."
"The wide masses of Macedonia," says Kordatos, "were oppressed not only by the pashas, beys and agas, but also by the local rich people and the Greek high church officials. Therefore, the majority of the Slavophone Macedonians decided to rise against the Turkish tyranny and the injustice of the Metropolitans, and in an autonomous and independent Macedonia to build political and national equality..." (loannis Kordatos, Istoria tis neas Ellados, vol.5, Athens 1955, pp. 41A2).
[/FONT]
 
In the period between the two Wars the only hope the Macedonian people in Greece had for the preservation of their national identity and for the realization of their basic national rights as a minority came from the Greek Communist Party. Between 1924 and 1935, the latter supported the idea of self-determination of the Macedonian people in Greece as well as for the independence and unity of Macedonia and Thrace, which later changed into a demand for "national equality for the minorities within the Greek state".

Speaking in favor of the demands of the Macedonian people in Greece, the leader of the parliamentary group of the Communist Party, Stelios Sklavenas, declared at the Parliamentary sitting of 25th April 1936: "Another problem which the Government keeps ignoring in its declarations is the question of giving the minorities in Greece rights equal to those of the native Greek population. This refers in the first place to the Macedonian people. Anyone who has traveled through Macedonia must have felt the specific pressure exerted on the Macedonians. They have been strictly forbidden to have their own schools, speak their own language or practice their own customs. As a result, the people are getting organized and ready to fight for their rights, in which we can't but support them.

The winning countries in the Great War and the League of Nations sanctioned the right for the self-determination of oppressed nations. And we also grant this right to the Macedonian people...
General Metaxas established his dictatorship on 4th August 1936. One of the first things he did was to retaliate against deputy Stelios Sklavenas for his speech in Parliament in support of the Macedonian cause, by sending him to the dungeons of Manyadakis, chief of the Security police, where he was virtually subjected to inquisition.

As a conclusion to what has so far been said about the Greek denial of the admission of the Republic of Macedonia into the international institutions, the Greek claim to the exclusive right to the name of Macedonia and their non-recognition of the Macedonian minority in Greece, we would like to draw the attention of the reader to the visionary ideas and words of the former leader of the Left Liberals in Greece, Ioannis Sofianopoulos. As early as 1927, when the Greek Parliament debated minority rights in the country; this man of virtue anticipated future events.

"By what means can we tame the spirits and eradicate the hatred?" he wonders and then adds: "There are three essential elements. a real protection of the minorities, which would forbid any forced emigration, education of the new generation in schools, and good traffic connections with all Balkan countries... Everybody should understand," Sofianopoulos concludes, "that we cannot endlessly change the family name suffixes -opoulos into -opovich, then into -opov, or in the reverse direction, and that the mind should be free and the will of the individual fully respected." (Ioannis Sofianopoulos, Pos ida tin Valkaniki, Athens 1927, p.204). Translated by Mirka Mishich
 
eurominority.jpg
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berziti
The Berziti (Bulgarian, Macedonian, Serbian: Берзити) were a South Slavic tribe that settled in Byzantine Macedonia in the 6th century AD with the Slavic invasion of the Balkans. Their name has been modernized as Brsjaci which also is the region of Macedonia encompassing Bitola, Ohrid, Prespa and Veles which is thought to have been their Sclaviniae.
One part of the tribe settled in Brest, Belarus. The Berziti settled in the vicinity of Lychnidos (Ohrid).
The tribe subsequently disappeared after Byzantine, Serbian and Bulgar conquest of the region. The tribe was absorbed by the Serb and Bulgarian ethnos.
In the 1935 book by Kirov-Majski, a self-proclaimed Brsjak, two sub-groups (ethnographic) of the Bulgarians are attested, the Brsjaks and Mijaks, according to him in 1903, the revolutionaries that rebelled in the Krushevo Uprising calls themselves "Brsjaks". Self-proclaimed Brsjaks in Macedonia have since identified with the Macedonian people.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mijaks
The Mijaks (Macedonian: Мијаци, Mijaci) are a sub-group of ethnic Macedonians who primarily live in the Mijačija area, comprising of the Reka and Mala Reka regions, along the Radika river,in the west of Macedonia. They are most notable for their unique style of building and the extent to which old traditions and customs are kept alive by Mijaks.With the migration from village to city many villages now are uninhabited.


Macedonian Anthem

Today Over Macedonia
Today over Macedonia, is being born
the new sun of liberty.
The Macedonians fight,
for their own rights!
The Macedonians fight
for their own rights!
Now once again the flag flies
(that) of the Krushevo Republic
Goce Delchev, Pitu Guli
Dame Gruev, Sandanski!
Goce Delchev, Pitu Guli
Dame Gruev, Sandanski!
The Macedonian forests sing
new songs and news
Macedonia is liberated
It lives in liberty!
Macedonia is liberated
It lives in liberty!

http://www.eurominority.eu/version/eng/minority-detail.asp?id_minorities=153
Peoples in search of freedom - www.eurominority.eu
The website of Stateless Nations and minority peoples in Europe
(national, cultural and linguistic minorities, native peoples, ethnic groups, areas with strong identity and autonomist, independantist or separatist tendencies)
 
We know ancient Macedons were hellenic because we have quotes of them saying they were;

Alexander Quote:
If it were not my purpose to combine barbarian things with things Hellenic, to traverse and civilize every continent, to search out the uttermost parts of land and sea, to push the bounds of Macedonia to the farthest Ocean, and to disseminate and shower the blessings of the Hellenic justice and peace over every nation, I should not be content to sit quietly in the luxury of idle power, but I should emulate the frugality of Diogenes. But as things are, forgive me Diogenes, that I imitate Herakles, and emulate Perseus, and follow in the footsteps of Dionysos, the divine author and progenitor of my family, and desire that victorious Hellenes should dance again in India and revive the memory of the Bacchic revels among the savage mountain tribes beyond the Kaukasos…
  • As quoted in "On the Fortune of Alexander" by Plutarch, 332 a-b
What your doing is distorting history for your own ultra-nationalistic purposes. That won't save FYROM. The main enemy of FYROM isn't greece but itself, with an economy at 30% unemployment, GPD less than albania... the FYROM governmetnt is using nationalism as a cover for the more pressing matters. The enemy of FYROM are the FYROM people themselves ;) but you don't care beacuse you live in finland enjoying their economy while pretending to be a fighter, its rather enjoyable :)
 
oh god

you bring the communist party options?

find who Pieri were,
find who was myrmidos
find who the molloseans were
find when Dion was Build
find the Language before the Koine
find similaries among phrygian and makedonian
find the aeolians Makedonian and the lokroi
find why G is in south Makedonia around Olympus
find why ollympias married Phllipos and why
Hercules 2 son sons Makednos (phillip progonos)
Myrmidos (olympias ancestor)

Yes 700-800 BC is the first Makedonia KingDom
after years of wars with thracian tribes like Pieri Paeones Thyni
why thyni left for minor Asia at 700 BC who push them?
why Pieri move to strymon at 800 BC? who pushed them
why the area south of olymp never mentioned, Larissa
why the dorians claim from Hercules and came from south east of Olymp (Makedonia birth place) why Hercules story is lost at Dion the holy city,
why the Dorians never speak easily?
why aeolians understand better makedonians than the Spartans
why Alexander did not burn Sparta?????


PaNtermalis is right ( i have heard him a lot of times and discuss , he is top)
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]when we speak a Macedonian we do not mean a Greek from Macedonia, but one descended from Macedonia by origin and by nationality.[/FONT]

the area belong to 3 thrassian tribes Pieri and Bithyni and later Vrygi
we were invaders to that land before was thracian tribes land,
we build 1 city Dion later Pydna Balla (Pelion) and much Later Aiges (goats) Pella etc
we establish a king of the union the cities at about 700 BC karamos
capital Aiges with a council from each city king
that was the system until Amyntas more cities unite or build or conquered

we never said that makedonians lived here before 2000 Bc
we estimated time of entry at 1300 Bc east of Olymp and slowly north to Aiges,
our first big state is 700BC about but cities exist at even 900 BC

what is your point?

yes we conquer area from Thracians 3 000 years before


as you realize its our nationality that named the land not a US council or an emperror
makedonia is a Nation not an area, and dont belong to it cause you are a slav

as you say xenophon the athenean its Phillip the Makedonian

petsas is also wright

for us the Greeks Makedonian is Blood connection he came from Hercules,
not a land, not a treaty,
christianity and byzantium ****** us a lot, but that is another story,
we shrunk we shrunk, but we never give up our blood,
simply not today when we speak a part from our language (at least not turkish)

besides STRABO εστιν ουν ΕλλαΣ και η Μακεδονια
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eugene_N._Borza
Eugene N. Borza was a professor emeritus of ancient history at Pennsylvania State University. He has written many works on the ancient kingdom of Macedonia.




Published works
Eugene Borza

Who Were (and Are) the Macedonians?
(Abstract from a paper presented at the 1996 Annual meeting of the American PhilologicalAssociation http://www.apaclassics.org/AnnualMeeting/96program.html)
This paper seeks to illuminate the problems associated with determining the ethnicity of the ancient Macedonians (were
they Greek?), and to discuss the "reverberations" (to use the organizers' term) of that issue in modem times. While the
1971 OED may regard the use of the word "ethnicity" as obsolete, no adequate substitute for the word exists. Indeed,
part of the discussion in my paper will, following the lead of Loring Danforth in his recent The Macedonian Conflict.-
Ethnic Nationalism in a Transnational World (Princeton 1995), attempt to illustrate some principles by which the "ethnicity"
of the ancient Macedonians--and, perhaps, other ancient peoples--can be discussed in a coherent manner.

Among the questions asked as appropriate to a methodological model of determining ethnicity are:

I. What were a people's origins and what language did they speak? From the surviving literary sources
(Hesiod, Herodotus, and Thucydides) there is little information about Macedonian origins, and the
archaeological data from the early period is sparse and inconclusive. On the matter of language, and despite
attempts to make Macedonian a dialect of Greek, one must accept the conclusion of the linguist R. A.
Crossland in the recent CAH, that an insufficient amount of Macedonian has survived to know what language
it was. But it is clear from later sources that Macedonian and Greek were mutually unintelligible in the court
of Alexander the Great. Moreover, the presence in Macedonia of inscriptions written in Greek is no more
proof that the Macedonians were Greek than, e.g., the existence of Greek inscriptions on Thracian vessels
and coins proves that the Thracians were Greeks.

II. Self-identity: what did the Macedonians say or think about themselves? Virtually nothing has survived
from the Macedonians themselves (they are among the silent peoples of antiquity), and very little remains in
the Classical and Hellenistic non-Macedonian sources about Macedonian attitudes.

III. What did others say about the Macedonians? Here there is a relative abundance of information from
Arrian, Plutarch (Alexander, Eumenes), Diodorus 17-20, Justin, Curtius Rufus, and Nepos (Eumenes),
based upon Greek and Greek-derived Latin sources. It is clear that over a five-century span of writing in two
languages representing a variety of historiographical and philosophical positions the ancient writers regarded
the Greeks and Macedonians as two separate and distinct peoples whose relationship was marked by
considerable antipathy, if not outright hostility.

IV. What is the nature of cultural expressions as revealed by archaeology? As above we are blessed with an
increasing amount of physical evidence revealing information about Macedonian tastes in art and decoration,
religion, political and economic institutions, architecture and settlement patterns. Clearly the Macedonians
were in many respects Hellenized, especially on the upper levels of their society, as demonstrated by the
excavations of Greek archaeologists over the past two decades. Yet there is much that is different, e. g., their
political institutions, burial practices, and religious monuments.

I will argue that, whoever the Macedonians were, they emerged as a people distinct from the Greeks who lived to the south and east. In time their royal court--which probably did not have Greek origins (the tradition in Herodotus that the Macedonian kings were descended from Argos is probably a piece of Macedonian royal propaganda)--became Hellenized in many respects, and I shall review the influence of mainstream Greek culture on architecture, art, and literary preferences.
 
Ancient Macedonians were in fact Greeks?

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Ancient Quotes on the Macedonians as Distinct Nation[/FONT]

The ancient Greek, Roman, and Jewish historians, geographers, and orators, speak of the Macedonians as distinct nation, separate from their Greek, Thracian, and Illyrian neighbors. They are clear that Macedonia was never part of Greece and that the Macedonians conquered Greece, Thrace, and Illyria, and kept the Greeks, Thracians, and Illyrians enslaved, until Rome defeated the Macedonian armies and turned the country into its first province in 168 BC. The assertion of those modern historians that propagate that the Macedonians "were Greeks" which have "united" Greece, is absurd and is completely unsupported by the words of the ancients who clearly considered Greece subjected by the Macedonian foreigners. The Macedonians garrisoned the Greek cities (like the Thracian and Illyrian cities) to enforce their occupation, and later used the Greeks (along with equal numbers of the Thracians and Illyrians) for their conquest of Persia.




The ancient Greeks did not regard the Macedonians as Greeks, nor the Macedonians regarded themselves to be Greek. They were proud of their Macedonian nationality and way of life, and looked down upon the Greeks and with contempt. The Greeks called them barbarians, along with the Persians, Illyrians, and Thracians, a label that they attributed to all non-Greeks who neither spoke nor understood the Greek language. Alexander's Macedonian Army was not a "Greek army" as some modern writers have erroneously claimed, nor the Macedonian conquest of Asia was a "Greek conquest". The fact is that not one ancient writer has called the Macedonian empire "Greek" or the Macedonian army and conquest "Greek", but specifically Macedonian. When Rome clashed with Macedonia, the Macedonians were ordered by the Romans to evacuate from the whole of Greece and withdraw to Macedonia. They were hated by the Greeks ever since Philip II defeated the Greeks at Chaeronea in 338 BC and brought Greece to its kneel, and the Greeks fought fiercely, first on the side of the Persians and later on the side of the Romans to expel the Macedonians from their country. Too late would they realize that the Macedonian occupation would only be replaced by the Roman. In between the Greeks fought many unsuccessful wars against the Macedonians to drive them out of Greece, among which the Lamian War is the most famous. It should be noted that the Lamian War was triggered by the death of Alexander the Great, which encouraged the Greeks to rebel.
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lamian_War

The “Lamian War”, also referred to as the “Hellenic War” and the “War against Antipater”, was fought by the Athenians and their Aetolian, Locrian, and Phocian allies against the Macedonians in Thessaly during the winter of (323322 BC). After some initial successes, the Athenians and her allies besieged the town of Lamia, located on the southern slope of the Othrys Mountains on the Malic Gulf, where Antipater, regent of Macedon and commander of the Macedonian forces in Europe, had taken refuge behind the substantial fortifications of the city. Unsuccessful in their siege, the rebel Athenians were eventually defeated at the Battle of Crannon in Thessaly in 322, bringing the uprising to an end.
 
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Why the Byzantine Empire was not a "Greek Empire"?[/FONT]

Within the last two centuries, we have seen the western literature label the Eastern Roman Empire (Byzantine Empire) as "Greek Empire". Once again this is largely to the inventions and distortions of the western historians of the 19th century, who also falsely ascribed "Greek" ethnicity to the ancient Macedonians. These people took the fact that Greek was used as the language of the Empire and declared that the Empire was ruled by "Greeks", had "Greek" armies, "Greek" churches, and "Greek" art. In other words they spoke of the Byzantine Empire as a "Greek Empire", a view which had been completely supported and propagated by the modern Greeks as well.
Along with distorting the ethnicity of the ancient Macedonians, the labeling of the Eastern Roman (Byzantine) Empire into "Greek" is one of the greatest fabrications of the western and modern Greek writers. Although it is true that Greek was used as the language of the Empire, that can not be taken as proof that the empire was "Greek". Latin was the original official language, imposed by the Romans who established and ruled the Roman Empire. In 395 AD when the Roman Empire split into western and eastern (Byzantine), Latin continued to be used as the official language but in time it was replaced by Greek as that language was already widely spoken among the Eastern Mediterranean nations as the main trade language. Yet the Emperors, the Church clergy, the army, and the artists, although they spoke Latin and Greek, where not exclusively of Greek ethnicity. The Empire was made up of many nationalities - Thracians, Macedonians, Illyrians, Bythinians, Carians, Phrygians, Armenians, Lydians, Galatians, Paphlagonians, Lycians, Syrians, Cilicians, Misians, Cappadocians, etc. The Greeks composed only a small portion of this multi-ethnic Empire and evidence shows that they did not posses much of the power either, for we know exactly who were the Byzantine Emperors, and we know they were not ethnic Greeks.

The earlier Byzantine Emperors were Romans but in time people of different ethnic backgrounds ruled this multi-ethnic empire. It is known that the empire reached its zenith while it was ruled by the Macedonians while the Macedonian Dynasty was on power for almost two centuries. Other dynasties that ruled were the Syrian, Armenian, Phrygian (Amorian), and other emperors were of various nationalities. Having in mind the ethnic diversity of the empire, the Church clergy, the army, and the artists, also came from the many different nationalities, and were not exclusively ethnic Greeks. The Byzantine historians often speak of "Macedonian army", "Thracian army", "Roman army". The Thracians, Macedonians, Illyrians, Bythinians, Carians, Phrygians, Armenians, Lydians, Galatians, Paphlagonians, Lycians, Syrians, Cilicians, Misians, Cappadocians, had to speak Latin and Greek in order to communicate among themselves, but they must have used their original languages to communicate within their own ethnic boundaries, which of course does not make them "Greeks".


Thus it is inaccurate to call the Byzantine Empire a "Greek Empire" and falsely ascribe its greatness to the Greeks, when in fact it is the non-Greeks who gave the greatest contribution in its progress. The inaccurate 19th century western historiography needs another major revision, just like the one it already went through regarding the ethnicity of the ancient Macedonians. Otherwise it will continue to be unreliable and biased.
 
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Diodorus Siculus[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Ancient Greek Historian[/FONT]

The ancient Greek historian Diodorus wrote much of the history of Macedonia from the times of Philip II and Alexander the Great up to the last Macedonian king Perseus. In his writings, Diodorus is clear that the ancient Macedonians were a distinct nation, not related to any of the Balkan peoples (Greeks, Thracians, and Illyrians). The below 40 quotes from his books XVII, XVIII, XIX, XX, XXII, XXVIII, XXIX, XXXI, and XXXII are indeed an overwhelming proof of that:

[1] For even Greeks – Thespians, Plataeans and Orchomenians, and some other hostile to the Thebans who had joined the king (of the Macedonians) in the campaign. 17.13.5.

[2] For many days the king lay helpless under his treatment, and the Greeks who had been settled in Bactria and Sogdiana, who had long borne unhappily their sojourn among peoples of another race and now received word that the king has died of his wounds, revolted against the Macedonians. They formed a band of 3000 men and underwent great hardship on their homeward route. Later they were massacred by the Macedonians after Alexander’s death. 17.99.5-6.

[3] The Macedonians and Alexander backed Coragus because he was one of them while the Greeks favored Dioxippus. 17.100.4.

[4] Then the Macedonian (Coragus) poised his long lance and charged, but the Greek (Dioxippus), when he came within reach, struck the spear with his club and shuttered it. After these two defeats, Coragus was reduced to continuing the battle with sword, but as he reached for it, the other leaped upon him and seized his swordhand with his left, while with his right hand the Greek upset the Macedonian’s balance and made him lose his footing. 17.100.6-7

[5] He (Alexander the Great) was plainly disappointed at the defeat of the Macedonian. Dioxippus released his fallen opponent, and left the field winner of the resounding victory and bedecked with ribands by his compatriots, as having brought a common glory to all Greeks. 17.101.1-2.

[6] From Europe, the Greek cities AND the Macedonians also sent embassies, as well as the Illyrians and most of those who dwell about the Adriatic Sea, the Thracian peoples and even those of their neighbors the Gauls, whose people became known then first in the Greek world. 17.113.2.

[7] When Perdiccas heard of the revolt of the Greeks, he drew by lot from the Macedonians 3000 infantry and 800 horsemen. 18.7.3

[8] They (the Greeks) had more then 20000 foot soldiers and 3000 horse. 18.7.2. 3000 of these 23000 Greeks were led by a "traitor" who "left his allies without warning and withdrew to e certain hill, taking his 3000 men". 18.7.6.

[9] When oaths to this effect had been sworn and the Greeks were interspersed among the Macedonians, Pithon was greatly pleased, seeing that the affair was progressing according to his intentions; but the Macedonians remembering the orders of Perdiccas and having no regard for the oaths that had been sworn, broke faith with the Greeks. Setting upon them unexpectedly and catching them off their ground, they shot them all down with javelins and seized their possessions as plunder. Pithon then, cheated of his hopes, came back with the Macedonians to Perdiccas. 18.7.8-9

[10] When Alexander died a short time thereafter and left no sons as successors to the kingdom, the Athenians ventured to assert their liberty (from Macedonia) and to claim the leadership of the Greeks. 18.9.1

[11] When the Aetolians listened to him gladly they gave him 7000 soldiers, he sent to the Locrians and the Phocians and the other neighboring peoples and urged them to assist their freedom and rid Greece of the Macedonian despotism. 18.9.5.

[12] The decree of the Assembly of Athens: "people should assume responsibility for the common freedom of the Greeks and liberate the cities that were subject to (Macedonian) garrisons; that they should prepare 40 quadriremes and 200 triremes (ships); that all Athenians up to age of 40 should be enrolled; that three tribes should guard Attica, and that the other seven should be ready for campaign beyond the frontier; that envoys should be sent to visit the Greek cities and tell them that formerly the Athenian people, convinced that all Greece was the common fatherland of the Greeks, had fought by see against those (Macedonian) barbarians who had invaded Greece to enslave her, and that now too Athens believed it necessary to risk lives and money and ships in defense of the common safety of the Greeks." 18.10.1-3.

[13] Of the rest of the Greeks, some were well disposed toward the Macedonians, others remained neutral. 18.11.1

[14] A few of the Illyrians and the Thracians joined the alliance (with the Greeks) because of their hatred of the Macedonians. 18.11.1-2

[15] As soon as, however, as he learned of the movement concerted against him by the Greeks, he left Sippas as general of Macedonia, giving him a significant army and bidding him enlist as many men as possible, while he himself, taking 13000 Macedonians and 600 horsemen, set out from Macedonia to Thessaly (into Greece). 18.12.2

[16] Now that this great force had been added to the Athenians, the Greeks, who far outnumbered the Macedonians, were successful. 18.12.4

[17] As the Macedonians defended themselves stoutly, many of the Greeks who pushed on rashly were killed. 18.12.1-2

[18] Antiphilus, the Greek commander, having defeated the Macedonians in a glorious battle played a waiting game, remaining in Thessaly and watching for the enemy to move. The affairs of the Greeks were thus in thriving condition, but since the Macedonians had command of the sea, the Athenians made ready other ships… 18.15.7-8.

[19] Then after such a combat I have described, the battle was broken off, as the scales of victory swung in favour of the Macedonians. More then 500 of the Greeks were killed in the battle, and 130 of the Macedonians. 18.17.5

[20] The commandant of the garrison of that city, Archelaus, who was a Macedonian by RACE, welcomed Attalus and surrendered the city to him… 18.37.3-4.

[21] Seleucus and Pithon again tried to persuade the Macedonians to remove Eumenes from his command and to cease preferring against their own interests a man who was a foreigner and who had killed very many Macedonians. 19.13.1


[22] Peucestes (Macedonian commander) had 10000 Persian archers and slingers, 3000 men of every origin equipped for service in the Macedonian array, 600 Greek and Thracian cavalry and more then 400 Persian horsemen. 19.14.5.


[23] Although the risk involved in all these circumstances was clear, nonetheless she decided to remain there, hoping that many Greeks AND Macedonians would come to her aid by sea. 19.35.6.


[24] Then, after making a truce with the other Boeotians and leaving Eupolemus as general for Greece, he went into Macedonia, for he was apprehensive of the enemy’s crossings. 19.77.5-6

[25] In this year Antigonus ordered his general Ptolemaeus into Greece to set the Greeks free… 19.77.2


[26] Ptolemaeus, the general of Antigonus, had been placed in charge of affairs thoughout Greece; 19.87.3 (not in Macedonia).

[27] This was the situation in Asia and in Greece AND Macedonia. 19.105.4

[28] And first he planned to establish order in the affairs of Greeceand then go on against Macedonia itself if Cassander did not march against him. 20.102.1

[29] While these held office, Cassander, king of the Macedonians, on seeing that the power of the Greeks was increasing and that the whole war was directed against Macedonia, became much alarmed about the future. 20.106.1-2

[30] Demetrius was followed by 1500 horsemen, not less then 8000 Macedonian foot-soldiers, mercenaries to the number of 15000, 2500 from the cities throughout Greece. 20.110.4

[31] The utmost spirit or rivalry was not lacking on either side, for the Macedonians were bent on saving their ships, while the Siceliotes wished not only to be regarded as victors over the Carthaginians and the barbarians of Italy, but also to show themselves in the Greek arena as more then a match for the Macedonians, whose spears had subjected both Asia and Europe. 21.2.2

[32] Brennus, the king of the Gauls … invaded Macedonia and engaged in battle. Having in this conflict lost many man .. as lacking sufficient strength … when later he advanced into Greece and to the oracle of Delphi which he wished to plunder. 22.9.1-2

[33] A native of Terentum, Heracleides was a man of surprising wickedness, who had transformed Philip from a victorious king into a harsh and godless tyrant, and had thereby incurred the deep hatred of all Macedonians AND Greeks. 28.9.2

[34] Flamininus held that Philip (the Macedonian king) must completely evacuate Greece, which should thereafter be ungarrisoned and autonomous. 28.11.1

[35] To this Flamininus replied that there was no need of arbitration whom he ha wronged; furthermore he himself was under orders from the Senate to liberate Greece (from Macedonia). 28.11.3-4

[36] When the news of settlement reached him, Flamininus summoned the leading men of all Greece, and convoking an assembly repeated to them Rome’s good services to the Greeks. 28.13.2 (Macedonians excluded from the leading men of Greece)

[37] In defense of the settlement made with Nabis he (Flamininus) pointed out that the Romans had done what was in their power, and that in accordance with the declared policy of the Roman people all the inhabitants of Greece were now free (of Macedonia), ungarrisoned, and most important of all, governed by their own laws. 28.13.3

[38] Philip threatens the Greek Thessalians: "They were not aware, he said, that the Macedonian sun had not yet altogether set." 29.16.1-2

[39] He said, namely, that after seeing the sun rise as he was about to begin transporting his army from Italy to Greece… five day later he arrived in Macedonia. 31-11.2-4

[40] Having as his accomplice a certain harpist named Nicolaus, a Macedonian by birth… 32.15.9
 
you write a ton of .... what ?
i told we conquer land from Thracians and later allied wit paeonians (today skopje)

why you write all these
just to make an apearrance
they are all known
But you never read the replies
simpy you COPY PASTE

you probably never been to Dion as a true Makedonian is obliged to do

Keep copy paste Bullshit

YOU DIDN'T EVEN SAID ME IF WYOU WANT A BOTTLE OF WINE AS GIFT
CAUSE YOU NEVER READ, SIMPLY YOU
COPY PASTE from Fyromian National front site

we are here i m drinking Fyromian wine and shine my AK47
i said do you want me to send you a bottle? you even not reply
that means in case of war you will stay in sweden in your safety,


get in your mind
the greeks live in regions

1 makedonia
2 thessaly
3 peloponese
4 crete
5 islands
6 epirus
7 thrace
8 Greece

the area from Phthia to Fokis (ftiotida boiotia eurutania fokida) is named Greece

that greece you mention is 'sterea Greece' 'ctara grcka'

un
derstand it that greece is a geografiacal region even today
its name is
sterea Ellas or Sterea Greece or Ctara Grcka

it is not a different country,
its a province understand it


dont be an idiot
that is the name of a province even today named Greece
search were there any spartan at these battles? any cretan?
it was the Atheneans and thebeans and sterea Greeks who had collonies in Makedonia
Greeks comes from Homer Graikoi and was the people of Greece province
not the Hellenes
my nation is not Greek, english call me that
my nation is Hellenes

we are Hellenes, sons of Hellen and we make games at Hellanas River in Greece,
later Olympia was Build in Peloponese,
you write with out knowing what you write

that Greece is a region

Stop PERVERTing history, Greece region has nothing to do with Hellenick Nation
stop mixing Geography with Nationality
 
Its more relevant then your claim of Hercules. What more fantasies suits your dream?
 
DejaVu
You can see similarity in haplogroups between Serbia and Macedonia FYROM and comment on the differences.

Serbia (Mirabal et al 2010), Macedonia FYROM (Pericic et al, 2005)

Serbia _ and _ Macedonia (FYROM)
I2a2 38,5%_______29,1 %
I1 7,8% __________ No data
R1a 14,5%_________15,2%
R1b 4,5%_________5,1%
E1b1b1 17,3%______24,1%
J2 5,0%____________6,3%
G2a 2,2% _________ No data

Serbia census 2001
Ethnic Serbs 83%, Others 17%

Macedonia FYROM census 2001
Ethnic Slavic Macedonians 65%, Ethnic Albanians 24%, Others 11%

Comments

Given that the majority Albanians haplogroup is E is not surprising that is a greater percentage of E in Macedonia than in Serbia.

The part of E carriers in Serbia is from the migration of Montenegrins where E is higher percentage than in Macedonia.

If we consider only ethnic Serbs and ethnic Slavic Macedonians, haplogroup I is the higher percentage comparing the total population of these countries.


DejaVu
I'm going to Macedonia (FYROM), I have friends in Macedonia, I have visited most of Western Macedonia, and I'll tell you that I never had any problems what more when in a object, shop or anywhere they hear that I speak Serbian, all are very friendly and happy to be, simply they do not want to hide feeling and no policy that can prevent.
 

This thread has been viewed 749104 times.

Back
Top