Who were and are the Albanians and their DNA

Dibran said:
Doesn't seem to include everything. I have noticed some Yfull samples for Albanians are not in the Albanian Bloodlines. Did some not join the project or test outside FTDNA/YSEQ?
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Who is more specifically not included?
But yes, for certain reasons, they would have to join our corresponding groups at FTDNA or YSEQ in order to be added to our public database. This database keeps growing. At the rate we're going, we might have 400+ samples by the end of year. And the vast majority of our samples are tested deeper (including many BigY's) than the regional projects, like the Serbian project for example, which is mostly based on low-res Y23 markers from the Belgrade lab.
 
Aspurg said:
There is more than enough of archaeological evidence to suggest Bastarnae played part in the ethnogenesis of Slavs, as there is that their origin was from the West.

Genetic evidence supports this. Y3120 has TMRCA of 2300 years, however there is a Frenchman CTS10228 from Lorraine who doesn't share 6 SNP's with Y3120 (TMRCA 3800), indicating Western origin for Y3120. And of course the diversity of older clades in the West is obvious as well. A-DNA results for older clades also support it. Overall Bastarnae are definitely the best explanation for both arrival of CTS10228 from the West and it's subsequent spread with the Slavs. Of course I'm not saying that Y3120 was the only hg among Bastarnae. So, this particular clade found in Greeks doesn't seem to be of Slavic origin, because it separated relatively (for Y3120) long time ago and is not present in Slavic populations (those Jews with it still descend from Greek clades). Look around forums, this has been covered already.
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Ok, no point on discussing an obscure tribe so I believe you. However, if that's the case, if they are germanic in origin as you say, then perhaps they might be responsible for some some of the I2a2, I1 (Z63, Z58) and R1b influence. No reason to believe they differed greatly genetically from other germanic groups.

We are discussing everything below Y3120, anyway. It's pretty obvious that Y3120 was part of the slavic ethnogenesis when they expanded, you even have the Y3120* Polish sample solidifying it. So, using simple logic here, those Greeks are sitting in a slavic wedge.
 
Guys then what about greeks? We know that they were originally R1a who mixed with locals and here we are, but today they score pretty much the same as albanians even aboit R1b, but they should have R1a.
What i am guessing is could some strange paradox among haplos in the past and haplos nowadays like happened among greeks happen even in albanians? I am talking generically.
Why I ask? Well for obvious reasons, because if albanians originally were differnt then now, maybe not only R1b, J2b, E-V13 but even something else could change something about what we know of our ancestors.
Maybe if we did more DNA tests on bones of ancient tombs of illiryans/epirotes we could know something more.
P.S. mine are only doubts I am not claiming anything, I am asking.
 
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Zanatis said:
Gannicus you got a lot of reading to do and a lot of bias to avoid as you seem to have some ridiculous Tosk Supremacy issues. I2a isn't Albanian and most probably it wasn't even North Illyrian, let alone Epirote.

So far the candidates are all from the Carpathian area, either Dacians, Bastarnae, Slavic, or even Celtic.

And what's with your Ethnic group being also Balkan Celt? Is that because of your y-DNA? lol

Which region of Albania do you come from? Myzeqeja?
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Sorry Zanatis, about whom candidates where you talking about? Of I2 or of albanians?
 
Trojet said:
Who is more specifically not included?
But yes, for certain reasons, they would have to join our corresponding groups at FTDNA or YSEQ in order to be added to our public database. This database keeps growing. At the rate we're going, we might have 400+ samples by the end of year. And the vast majority of our samples are tested deeper (including many BigY's) than the regional projects, like the Serbian project for example, which is mostly based on low-res Y23 markers from the Belgrade lab.
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Awesome!. Yea it seems to be growing quickly. I heard L1029 was only discovered 2012/13, and it has already grown so much. The samples I noticed are the following V13, both from Mirdita. I didn't find their clade in the search tool on the results site. Unless the general branch is only mentioned and not specific assignment.

alb.png
 
Leka said:
Ok, no point on discussing an obscure tribe so I believe you. However, if that's the case, if they are germanic in origin as you say, then perhaps they might be responsible for some some of the I2a2, I1 (Z63, Z58) and R1b influence. No reason to believe they differed greatly genetically from other germanic groups.
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Obviously they would be of Germanic origin, however Bastarnae were people who migrated much earlier eastwards than subsequently Goths etc., and as such they were probably somewhat different from "classic" Germanic tribes of 1st-2nd century AD.
It's quite possible I1, R-U106 clades were involved with them but it is hard to determine which ones.

Leka said:
We are discussing everything below Y3120, anyway. It's pretty obvious that Y3120 was part of the slavic ethnogenesis when they expanded, you even have the Y3120* Polish sample solidifying it. So, using simple logic here, those Greeks are sitting in a slavic wedge.
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Indeed, Y3120 is obviously Slavic and basically all other clades except A2512 seem to have expanded with Slavs. Those Greeks are indeed in a Slavic wedge, however if they descend from an earlier non-Slavic Bastarnae migration, it would be hard for them to feel "Slavic" if none of their ancestors spoke Slavic, even though their cousins were involved in Slavic ethnogenesis.
Actually there is one Eastern non-Ashkenazi A2512, but he's not Slavic, but Chuvash. So that also might indicate this clade "strayed-off" at some early time.
 
Gannicus said:
Ok, i don't mean that ancient albanians were exactly tosks or gegs, i mean that ancient albanian language could be some kind of similar ting to what modern day tosk is because it seems the most coherent with the indo-european language cluster in general.
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Tosk seems to be the true Albanian if one looks at why the Albanian government declared 45 plus years ago that Tosk is the official language of Albania ...............they must know something .......write to the government and ask.
 
Sile said:
Tosk seems to be the true Albanian if one looks at why the Albanian government declared 45 plus years ago that Tosk is the official language of Albania ...............they must know something .......write to the government and ask.
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Come on Sile, stop with this provocations.
 
Leka said:
Ok, no point on discussing an obscure tribe so I believe you. However, if that's the case, if they are germanic in origin as you say, then perhaps they might be responsible for some some of the I2a2, I1 (Z63, Z58) and R1b influence. No reason to believe they differed greatly genetically from other germanic groups.

We are discussing everything below Y3120, anyway. It's pretty obvious that Y3120 was part of the slavic ethnogenesis when they expanded, you even have the Y3120* Polish sample solidifying it. So, using simple logic here, those Greeks are sitting in a slavic wedge.
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Who said their YDNA was specifically Germanic? I have been saying they could have been Proto-Slavs and assimilated in their movements. They didn't necessarily have to speak Slavic if they belong to that cluster. The same as my ancestor was assimilated and joined Albanian clans. Should someone assume now 1000 years from now that I spoke slavic if they found my remains? I didn't think so....

Things were so turbulent in the middle ages. No reason he couldn't have been assimilated into the movements of other tribes. Hell, the genomes of Avar elite came close to Poland. Mixing and assimilation happened. Same as today.

Poland was also part of East Germanic domain anyways. Could have easily been descended from one that happened to stay in Poland. Even Suebi remains had a hue NE european pull with autosomes. Overlapping did occur. Which is why I suggested the possibility of such overlap through assimilation of a Proto-Slav that carried that branch with them as a German speaker. Not that the YDNA is specifically German.....
 
Sile said:
Tosk seems to be the true Albanian if one looks at why the Albanian government declared 45 plus years ago that Tosk is the official language of Albania ...............they must know something .......write to the government and ask.
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This is an absurd analysis produced out of ignorance of the political context at the time. The communist government favoured Tosk because they feared two possible Gheg blocks of agitation. They wanted to undermine the vatican / catholic agitation from gheg priests and catholic intellectuals and also the Tito allied kosovo albanian communists which were not of the same ideological branch as Enver Hoxha. These were measures influenced by many more factors, with the ultimate goal of controlling discourse and undermining foreign agitation and destabilization.
 
Sile said:
Tosk seems to be the true Albanian if one looks at why the Albanian government declared 45 plus years ago that Tosk is the official language of Albania ...............they must know something .......write to the government and ask.
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Such much wisdom without even researching the topic for 1 minute... Sile let's apply your logic and resolve all linguistic mysteries: French was the first language to be properly standardized, and the government clearly knew something about it, so it obviously is the real Romance language, the real Latin one, the real indo-European and proto-IE, the real human language full stop. It was standardized first so they clearly have the original one. Everything is clear now.

Giannicus, you are completely oblivious in both genetic matters and linguistics. I strongly suggest you do some reading. Read what Johane mentioned. You will learn that the dialects split in Late Antiquity. Since then, if you have to pick one of them, it is actually the Gheg dialect that has preserved some more archaic forms, but that's irrelevant because there is no evidence of dialects or even Ghegs and Tosks before the 4th century. For genetics, read the Eupedia pages of the haplogroups at least. You will see that the current evidence suggests that E-V13, R1b-z2103 and J2b2 all moved into the region at roughly the same time, with the IE migrations. Anything beyond this is speculation, and anything contradicting this is a falsification of current findings.
 
Johane Derite said:
This is an absurd analysis produced out of ignorance of the political context at the time. The communist government favoured Tosk because they feared two possible Gheg blocks of agitation. They wanted to undermine the vatican / catholic agitation from gheg priests and catholic intellectuals and also the Tito allied kosovo albanian communists which were not of the same ideological branch as Enver Hoxha. These were measures influenced by many more factors, with the ultimate goal of controlling discourse and undermining foreign agitation and destabilization.
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Of course, the fact that the communist elite were mostly Tosk influenced on the final decision. But Vatican, Tito, etc , has nothing to do in this story, the reason were others.
 
The dialects of Albanian are divided into two major groups, Gheg (in the center and north of Albania and in the adjacent parts of Serbia and Macedonia) and Tosk (in southern Albania and in the outlying enclaves of Greece and Italy). Gheg dialects are characterized by the preservation of Proto-Albanian single *-n- between vowels and a full set of phonemically distinct nasalized vowels. Tosk dialects, on the other hand, show a change of single intervocalic *-n- to -r- and the merger of nasalized and non-nasalized vowels. In these two respects Tosk varieties are innovative vis-a-vis Gheg. However, Tosk preserves far better Proto-Albanian unstressed -e- and thus also preserves Proto-Albanian syllable structure better than does Gheg. Albanian as a standardized literary language dates back only to the beginning of the twentieth century. The standard before World War II was a variety of southern Gheg while the post-war standard has been a northern variety of Tosk (all examples given here are in the contemporary standard).
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Source:
Encyclopedia Of Indo-European Culture
by J. P. Mallory, Douglas Q. Adams
 
LABERIA said:
Source:
Encyclopedia Of Indo-European Culture
by J. P. Mallory, Douglas Q. Adams
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The main issue that some people have with the standardized version is the neglect of the infinitive, which is a significant archaic feature lost in Tosk. From wiki:

"
Paskajorja – me + pjesorja e foljes (p.sh. me punue, me kallëzue). Kjo veçanti e gegërishtes përdoren në shumicën e gjuhës dhe zë vendin e mënyrës lidhore të gjuhës standarde në shumicën e rasteve. Mënyra lidhore që përdoret në standard lidhet me vetën dhe kohën (e tashme: p.sh. të punoj d.m.th. unë të punoj, të punosh d.m.th. ti të punosh etj., dhe e pakryer: të punoja, të punoje, etj.) ndërsa paskajorja e gegërishtes është gjithëpërfshirëse.

Shumë gjuhëtarë sot janë ithtarë të futjes së këtij lloji të paskajores në gjuhën standarde meqë një pjesë e madhe e shqiptarëve e përdorin në të folurën e përditshme. Këta gjuhëtare mendojnë se shqipja standarde do të ishte më e lehtë dhe me më shumë mundësi shprehëese e stilistike. Ky lloj i paskajores do të ofronte përkthime më adekuate në këtë rast: "To Be or Not To Be" (Shekspir: Hamleti, III-I). Shekspiri nuk thotë Ti, të jesh apo të mos jesh, por thotë, pa iu drejtuar asnjë vete, as të dytës, as të tretës: “Me qenë a mos me qenë” (ose në variante më të skajshme: "me kânë a mos ke kânë"). Ndërkaq, një përkthim i tipit "për të qenë apo për të mos qenë" nuk tingëllon shqip."
 
Johane Derite said:
The main issue that some people have with the standardized version is the neglect of the infinitive, which is a significant archaic feature lost in Tosk. From wiki:
"
Paskajorja – me + pjesorja e foljes (p.sh. me punue, me kallëzue). Kjo veçanti e gegërishtes përdoren në shumicën e gjuhës dhe zë vendin e mënyrës lidhore të gjuhës standarde në shumicën e rasteve. Mënyra lidhore që përdoret në standard lidhet me vetën dhe kohën (e tashme: p.sh. të punoj d.m.th. unë të punoj, të punosh d.m.th. ti të punosh etj., dhe e pakryer: të punoja, të punoje, etj.) ndërsa paskajorja e gegërishtes është gjithëpërfshirëse.
Shumë gjuhëtarë sot janë ithtarë të futjes së këtij lloji të paskajores në gjuhën standarde meqë një pjesë e madhe e shqiptarëve e përdorin në të folurën e përditshme. Këta gjuhëtare mendojnë se shqipja standarde do të ishte më e lehtë dhe me më shumë mundësi shprehëese e stilistike. Ky lloj i paskajores do të ofronte përkthime më adekuate në këtë rast: "To Be or Not To Be" (Shekspir: Hamleti, III-I). Shekspiri nuk thotë Ti, të jesh apo të mos jesh, por thotë, pa iu drejtuar asnjë vete, as të dytës, as të tretës: “Me qenë a mos me qenë” (ose në variante më të skajshme: "me kânë a mos ke kânë"). Ndërkaq, një përkthim i tipit "për të qenë apo për të mos qenë" nuk tingëllon shqip."
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Johane, një nga arsyet përse u vendos që gjuha standarte duhet të bazohesh në Toskërishte ishte pikërisht përkthimi i Shekspirit, ndërmjet kryeveprave të tjera letërsisë botërore, nga Fan Noli. Gegërishtja kishte më shumë traditë në lëvrimin e gjuhës shqipe me priftërinjtë katolikë, por ishte më shumë e prirur drejt poezisë. Ndërsa Toskërishtja vërtet filloi të lëvrohet më vonë, por nxori shumë autorë dhe ç'është më e rëndësishmja nxorri prozatorë, krahas poetëve. Dhe gjuha e përditshme që flasim nuk është poezi por prozë. 60 vjet mbas shpalljes së pavarësisë ishin të mjaftueshëm për të testuar dy dialektet në përballje me sfidat e modernitetit. Patjetër siç e përmenda fakti që një pjesë e rëndësishme e elitës komuniste ishte nga Jugu influencoi në vendim.
 
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Dibran said:
I was born in the United States, so as a intermediate Gheg speaker, isn’t the Tosk dialect younger than the Gheg one, hence branching off from it? I can’t see how it went from Tosk to Gheg. Unless you meant something differently by archaic.

With regards to the south, I remember reading a document that the area of a Durres was majority Italian and Greeks with Jewish Vlach And Slavic minorities including lastly Albanians.

Supposedly after a earthquake took Durres in 1200, it left a vacuum for Northern Ghegs to fill. This roughly correlates with the mixture resulting in Arvanites Cams and other Southerners. The proposed age of Tosk dialect seems to roughly correlate to the time period of the Quake.

Perhaps, archaic forms are result of loan words?

But I know very little with phonetics and other language rules. I just know our dialect is Dibran. I mix words though as my mom is from Puka, so a bit of her dialect rubs off as well.
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In fact the earthquake of Durres in 1267 lead to the Albanians of the city leaving it causing a decrease in the numbers of Albanians in the city for a certain amount of time, they were most probably the majority before the earthquake though http://www.albanianhistory.net/1267_Pachymeres/index.html. Durres is Gheg and not Tosk and is northern although considered more central usually. The "Greeks" or "Slavs" in Durres were most probably Orthodox Gheg Albanians as the city did have a good amount of Ghegs that were in fact Orthodox and not Catholics like in other Gheg regions and due to their Orthodox faith they were given a Slavic or Greek identity.
 
Dibran said:
If you bothered reading my edit. I stated I accidently posted the wrong link. The one you responded to mentioned the actual Quake. The one below goes into majority/minority inhabitants. Read, check the sources. Don't just reply.

http://www.albanianhistory.net/1322_...ons/index.html

1322
Simon Fitzsimons:
Itinerary from Ireland
to the Holy Land


Narratives of pilgrims on their way to the Holy Land provide a primary source of information for much of the eastern Mediterranean in the first half of the second millennium, and in one such narrative (1) dating from the year 1322, we find a passage about Albania. Although many pilgrims showed no more than a passing interest in the lands they visited en route to their goal, two Anglo-Irish pilgrims of the Franciscan Order, Symon Semeonis and Hugo Illuminator, whom we may refer to in English as Simon Fitzsimons and Hugh the Illuminator, were impressed by their short stopover in Albania, and the former vividly recorded what he saw, a rare glimpse of the Albanian coast in the first half of the fourteenth century. The 'Itinerarium Symonis Semeonis ab Hybernia ad Terram Sanctam' (The Itinerary of Simon Fitzsimons from Ireland to the Holy Land) contains a wealth of information on matters as varied as customs inspections and procedures, costumes, coinage, raw materials and products of the countries he visited and of course on churches and holy sites. It is apparent from the narrative that in 1322 the port of Durrës had not recovered entirely from the disastrous earthquake which had struck it half a century earlier. The original population of the city was replaced to a certain extent by an influx of Albanian nomads from the countryside. That Albanian must now have been widely spoken on the coastal plain and in the mountain regions at the time can be inferred from Simon's initial observation that the province had a language of its own, i.e. Albanian. Within the city of Durrës, however, the 'barbaric Albanians' are referred to only fourth, after the urban Latins, Greeks and Jews, an indication that they had not yet formed the majority group. Interestingly enough, Simon refers to the Albanian 'barbarians' in Dubrovnik, too, noting: "In eadem dominantur Veneti, et ad eam confluunt Sclavi, Barbari, Paterini et alii scismatici negotiatores qui sunt in gestu, habitu et lingua Latinis in omnibus difformes" (The Venetians dominate in it (Dubrovnik) and Slavs, Barbarians, Paterines and other schismatic merchants frequent it, who are entirely different from the Latins in their customs, dress and language).
And then after spending a few days, we passed through the city of Ulcinj, which belongs to the king of Rascia (2), and sailed to Durrës, a city once famous and mighty by land and sea, subject to the emperor of the Greeks but now belonging to the prince of Romania (3), the brother of the aforementioned king of Jerusalem (4), (this city) being in the province of Albania. It should be noted that Albania is a province between Slavonia (5)and Romania, having a language of its own and which the aforementioned schismatic King of Rascia has subjected to his rule. For the Albanians themselves are schismatics, using the rites of the Greeks and are entirely like them in their dress and manner. For like the Greeks, they rarely if ever wear the cowl, but rather a white hat lowered almost flat to the front and raised at the back so that their hair, the length and beauty of which they are extremely proud, may appear more attractive to the eyes of the beholder. The Slavs on the other hand, of whom mention was made above, wear a white hat, oblong and round, on the top of which their nobles stick a long feather in order to be distinguished and recognized more easily by the peasants and common people. The city itself is very extensive in the circuit of its walls, but small and unpretentious in its buildings because it was once razed to the ground in an earthquake (6), and in the destruction, its wealthiest citizens and inhabitants were buried beneath their own palaces and indeed a good 24,000 are reported to have died. It is now sparsely populated and divided in religion, customs and language. For it is inhabited by Latins, Greeks, perfidious Jews and barbaric Albanians. In use among them are small tournois coins of which eleven are worth one Venetian grosso. They are in use at this rate in all of Romania. This city is two hundred miles from Dubrovnik. And then, taking advantage of favourable winds, we continued on to Vlora, a fortress of the Emperor of the Greeks, and to the island of Corfu on which there is a city called Corfu belonging to the aforementioned King of Jerusalem, this place being two hundred miles from Durrës.

akzent.gif

(1)cf. R. Elsie: Two Irish travellers in Albania, in: Albanien in Vergangenheit und Gegenwart. Internationales Symposium der Südosteuropa-Gesellschaft..., Munich 1991, p. 24-27.
(2)Stephan Urosh III (r. 1322-1333).
(3)Romania refers here to territories in the possession of the Byzantine Empire, in particular the Morea, and has nothing to do with modern Romania. The Prince of the Morea at the time was John, Count of Gravina (r. 1316-1335).
(4)Robert the Good (r. 1309-1343).
(5)The term Slavonia refers here to the Slavic territories of Dalmatia and Croatia.
(6)The earthquake referred to Byzantine historian George Pachymeres probably occurred in July 1267.

[Extract from: Mario Esposito (ed.): Itinerarium Symonis Semeonis ab Hybernia ad Terram Sanctam, Dublin 1960, p. 36 40. Translated from the Latin by Robert Elsie. First published in R. Elsie: Early Albania, a Reader of Historical Texts, 11th - 17th Centuries, Wiesbaden 2003, p. 26-27.]
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Sources from the 1200s show us that there were already Albanians in Durres and were most probably the majority but had to leave the city during the earthquake. The "Greeks" or "Slavs" noted are in majority just Orthodox Albanians that were assigned those identities just because they were Orthodox, this was a common thing as shown by how even Arbereshe villages in Italy were recorded as "Greek" just because they were Orthodox in faith
 
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