Who were and are the Albanians and their DNA

[Leka]

Who said their YDNA was specifically Germanic? I have been saying they could have been Proto-Slavs and assimilated in their movements. They didn't necessarily have to speak Slavic if they belong to that cluster. The same as my ancestor was assimilated and joined Albanian clans. Should someone assume now 1000 years from now that I spoke slavic if they found my remains? I didn't think so....

Things were so turbulent in the middle ages. No reason he couldn't have been assimilated into the movements of other tribes. Hell, the genomes of Avar elite came close to Poland. Mixing and assimilation happened. Same as today.

Poland was also part of East Germanic domain anyways. Could have easily been descended from one that happened to stay in Poland. Even Suebi remains had a hue NE european pull with autosomes. Overlapping did occur. Which is why I suggested the possibility of such overlap through assimilation of a Proto-Slav that carried that branch with them as a German speaker. Not that the YDNA is specifically German.....

Isn’t that what you were implying by bringing bastarnea and goths into this? Anyway, post you quoted wasn’t directed at you, follow the whole thread.


Of course not, but why should we assume they didn’t? There are slavs upstream and downstream of that specific subclade. I go where the data takes me. That would be the logical conclusion one would arrive to, until other evidence comes forth that suggests otherwise.

 

[Dibran]

Isn’t that what you were implying by bringing bastarnea and goths into this? Anyway, post you quoted wasn’t directed at you, follow the whole thread.


Of course not, but why should we assume they didn’t? There are slavs upstream and downstream of that specific subclade. I go where the data takes me. That would be the logical conclusion one would arrive to, until other evidence comes forth that suggests otherwise.

That is exactly what I was implying, because as I said, Proto-Slavs were assimilated by them in some instances. Even Maciamo says as much. It is not telling just because a random Slav pops up in that cluster that all of a sudden the speaker of that specific cluster spoke Slavic themselves. It didn't have to be directed at me, I was following the whole time. Or did you forget I brought up the subject that you so arrogantly assumed you had figured out?

Logic is important. However, Logic can tell you whether or not a mode of reasoning in an argument is permissible or not, but in general logic will not tell you which statements are true or false. Logic and evidence do not always go hand in hand. I am sure you have heard of logical fallacies? Hasty and sweeping generalizations are just two examples of logical fallacies which you implore.

Much of human progress was accomplished via irrationality anyways. The idea one could build a plane, or drive a car, or grow artificial organs. All "illogical" concepts before evidence was brought forth. The thing is theres no evidence that cluster moved with Sclavenoi at the present, as there are no south slavs in that cluster. There should be considering their migratory patterns. One sample in Poland, is not indicitve of the cluster given your sweeping generalization the same as some V13 branches Albanians belong are not "Italian" or "Slavic" descent because upstream and downstream of them in some cases that is exactly what you have. You don't see people making such asinine conclusions. Yet that is exactly what you're doing here.

Also, I will have to remind you, most of the assumptions on these things whilst well educated guesses, are merely conjecture, pseudo-science. Perfect example. My line is considered the Slavic haplogroup. Most probably is given well educated guesses off of present data. However, there is not ONE ancient DNA sample in any urheimat of Slavs or Proto-Slavs to suggest they did in fact carry it. Thats not science when you don't have ancient DNA to support it. Even one sample is not conclusive of an entire population in a given point in time.

Given the chaotic nature of the late Iron and early middle ages, constant shifting of politics and borders, and the fact the modern concept and notion of "Nation" States were not even a thing yet until the high middle ages onward. It is rather counter productive to make sweeping claims with minimal data based on modern conceptions of race. Logic is pivotal, however, it will only take you so far.

Still remains, that cluster since its discovery only has Greeks and Jews. Absent finding a plethora of graves and tested remains, or modern Southern Slavic samples reinforcing just another Slavic speaking tribe, then it all remains conjecture. So Idk what evidence you assume you have. You still havent provided any. After all we are not arguing well established data for the other clusters in I2-Din. Its clear and evident. In this case for I-A2512 its not.

 

[Ownstyler]

Johane, një nga arsyet përse u vendos që gjuha standarte duhet të bazohesh në Toskërishte ishte pikërisht përkthimi i Shekspirit, ndërmjet kryveprave të tjera letërsisë botërore, nga Fan Noli. Gegërishtja kishte më shumë traditë në lëvrimin e gjuhës shqipe me priftërinjtë katolikë, por ishte më shumë e prirur drejt poezisë. Ndërsa Toskërishtja vërtet filloi të lëvrohet më vonë, por nxori shumë autorë dhe ç'është më e rëndësishmja nxorri prozatorë, krahas poetëve. Dhe gjuha e përditshme që flasim nuk është poezi por prozë. 60 vjet mbas shpalljes së pavarësisë ishin të mjaftueshëm për të testuar dy dialektet në përballje me sfidat e modernitetit. Patjetër siç e përmenda fakti që një pjesë e rëndësishme e elitës komuniste ishte nga Jugu influencoi në vendim.

Once you agree that the decision was political, which it was, you also have to accept that the "reasoning" behind it was simply a way to justify it. Otherwise you risk believing the wolf who justifies eating the lamb because it spilled his water even though the lamb drank further downstream. The two dialects are so similar that if one of them can't fully transmit a particular form of literary expression, neither can the other. If one can, so can the other. By the way, the administration of Albania mainly used Gheg before WWII, and mainly Tosk after it. So both are fully functional, and the decision was political, let's leave it there.

 

[Sile]

Come on Sile, stop with this provocations.

i am not provoking, you are the one who is always aggressive to myself
A lecture a few years from uni in Melbourne Australia has basically this :
Nick Nicholas, PhD in Linguistics from Melbourne University, lectured historical linguistics
Albanian is divided into Tosk dialect in the south, and Geg dialect in the north.
The standard language of Albania before WWII was Southern Geg, based on the dialect of Elbasan. Elbasan Geg was close to the Tosk/Geg border, so it was a dialect that could serve as a middle point between Tosk and Geg. And while Elbasan was not the capital of the country, it was culturally prestigious. In other words, the choice of Elbasan Geg was a good choice of standard dialect, as these things go.
The postwar standard was not Southern Geg. It was Southern Tosk. So it was not a middle point of Tosk and Geg; it was at the extreme of dialects spoken within Albania. And it wasn’t spoken anywhere massively prestigious: it was spoken in places near the southern border of the country, like Vlorë and Korçë and Gjirokastër.
Postwar Albania was ruled by Enver Hoxha and his fellow partisans.
By the time the communist regime fell, Southern Tosk had been entrenched in Albania as the standard language for a generation, and there was no move to restore the prewar standard. The most telling development for me was seeing Kosovo, which is Northern Geg, adopt Standard Albanian—based a dialect as far from the local dialect as you can get without ending up in the Arvanite diaspora. And Aziz Dida’s answer to my question Is there interest in keeping Geg as the standard language of Kosovo? shows, that has proven somewhat challenging for Kosovars.
So most lectures about it go with this version
.
.
.
Here is the link they gave me a while ago.............so, agree or deny this...but do not blame me as you always do.
.
http://www.elsie.de/pdf/articles/A1994HydronymicaAlbania_Revised2014.pdf

 

[Johane Derite]

i am not provoking, you are the one who is always aggressive to myself
A lecture a few years from uni in Melbourne Australia has basically this :
Nick Nicholas, PhD in Linguistics from Melbourne University, lectured historical linguistics
Albanian is divided into Tosk dialect in the south, and Geg dialect in the north.
The standard language of Albania before WWII was Southern Geg, based on the dialect of Elbasan. Elbasan Geg was close to the Tosk/Geg border, so it was a dialect that could serve as a middle point between Tosk and Geg. And while Elbasan was not the capital of the country, it was culturally prestigious. In other words, the choice of Elbasan Geg was a good choice of standard dialect, as these things go.
The postwar standard was not Southern Geg. It was Southern Tosk. So it was not a middle point of Tosk and Geg; it was at the extreme of dialects spoken within Albania. And it wasn’t spoken anywhere massively prestigious: it was spoken in places near the southern border of the country, like Vlorë and Korçë and Gjirokastër.
Postwar Albania was ruled by Enver Hoxha and his fellow partisans.
By the time the communist regime fell, Southern Tosk had been entrenched in Albania as the standard language for a generation, and there was no move to restore the prewar standard. The most telling development for me was seeing Kosovo, which is Northern Geg, adopt Standard Albanian—based a dialect as far from the local dialect as you can get without ending up in the Arvanite diaspora. And Aziz Dida’s answer to my question Is there interest in keeping Geg as the standard language of Kosovo? shows, that has proven somewhat challenging for Kosovars.
So most lectures about it go with this version
.
.
.
Here is the link they gave me a while ago.............so, agree or deny this...but do not blame me as you always do.
.
http://www.elsie.de/pdf/articles/A1994HydronymicaAlbania_Revised2014.pdf

The provocation he mentioned is you ascribing intent for choosing tosk as them "knowing something" tbat it is the "original albanian". Laberia was clear

 

[Sile]

This is an absurd analysis produced out of ignorance of the political context at the time. The communist government favoured Tosk because they feared two possible Gheg blocks of agitation. They wanted to undermine the vatican / catholic agitation from gheg priests and catholic intellectuals and also the Tito allied kosovo albanian communists which were not of the same ideological branch as Enver Hoxha. These were measures influenced by many more factors, with the ultimate goal of controlling discourse and undermining foreign agitation and destabilization.

This is not ignorance if you read what I said...it is historical fact and you have agreed with it

 

[Sile]

The provocation he mentioned is you ascribing intent for choosing tosk as them "knowing something" tbat it is the "original albanian". Laberia was clear

how is historical fact a provocation ?............fact is fact regardless if you like it or not

 

[Ownstyler]

i am not provoking, you are the one who is always aggressive to myself
A lecture a few years from uni in Melbourne Australia has basically this :
Nick Nicholas, PhD in Linguistics from Melbourne University, lectured historical linguistics
Albanian is divided into Tosk dialect in the south, and Geg dialect in the north.
The standard language of Albania before WWII was Southern Geg, based on the dialect of Elbasan. Elbasan Geg was close to the Tosk/Geg border, so it was a dialect that could serve as a middle point between Tosk and Geg. And while Elbasan was not the capital of the country, it was culturally prestigious. In other words, the choice of Elbasan Geg was a good choice of standard dialect, as these things go.
The postwar standard was not Southern Geg. It was Southern Tosk. So it was not a middle point of Tosk and Geg; it was at the extreme of dialects spoken within Albania. And it wasn’t spoken anywhere massively prestigious: it was spoken in places near the southern border of the country, like Vlorë and Korçë and Gjirokastër.
Postwar Albania was ruled by Enver Hoxha and his fellow partisans.
By the time the communist regime fell, Southern Tosk had been entrenched in Albania as the standard language for a generation, and there was no move to restore the prewar standard. The most telling development for me was seeing Kosovo, which is Northern Geg, adopt Standard Albanian—based a dialect as far from the local dialect as you can get without ending up in the Arvanite diaspora. And Aziz Dida’s answer to my question Is there interest in keeping Geg as the standard language of Kosovo? shows, that has proven somewhat challenging for Kosovars.
So most lectures about it go with this version
.
.
.
Here is the link they gave me a while ago.............so, agree or deny this...but do not blame me as you always do.
.
http://www.elsie.de/pdf/articles/A1994HydronymicaAlbania_Revised2014.pdf

How is this relevant to Tosk being "the original Albanian"?

 

[Johane Derite]

This is not ignorance if you read what I said...it is historical fact and you have agreed with it

Stop trying to do damage control and cover tracks. The reactions we had were about you saying WHY Tosk was favored. Not that it was favored which we know much better than wikipedia experts that read an article and think they are academics on other peoples languages that tbey dont even speak

 

[Johane Derite]

how is historical fact a provocation ?............fact is fact regardless if you like it or not

This comment of yours below is a historical fact in yoir opinion:

"Tosk seems to be the true Albanian if one looks at why the Albanian government declared 45 plus years ago that Tosk is the official language of Albania ...............they must know something .......write to the government and ask."

This is provocation and low level idiocy

 

[Sile]

Such much wisdom without even researching the topic for 1 minute... Sile let's apply your logic and resolve all linguistic mysteries: French was the first language to be properly standardized, and the government clearly knew something about it, so it obviously is the real Romance language, the real Latin one, the real indo-European and proto-IE, the real human language full stop. It was standardized first so they clearly have the original one. Everything is clear now.

No it was not , french L'oil in the north , basically a language with some germanic and in the south it had L'Oc ( occitan )...very different ........Occitan is still spoken in the south and many cities have occitan as well as french street signs etc

 

[Sile]

This comment of yours below is a historical fact in yoir opinion:
"Tosk seems to be the true Albanian if one looks at why the Albanian government declared 45 plus years ago that Tosk is the official language of Albania ...............they must know something .......write to the government and ask."
This is provocation and low level idiocy

seems = appear, appear to be, have the appearance/air of being, give the impression of .................unsure/maybe, not 100%................To appear to be probable

 

[Ownstyler]

No it was not , french L'oil in the north , basically a language with some germanic and in the south it had L'Oc ( occitan )...very different ........Occitan is still spoken in the south and many cities have occitan as well as french street signs etc

None of that was happening in the decades following the French revolution. The French nation-state standardized French by imposing it in the education system and replacing all regional dialects and other languages. So by your own logic, standardized French is the original language of the world.

 

[LABERIA]

seems = appear, appear to be, have the appearance/air of being, give the impression of .................unsure/maybe, not 100%................To appear to be probable

Sile, you said:

Tosk seems to be the true Albanian if one looks at why the Albanian government declared 45 plus years ago that Tosk is the official language of Albania ...............they must know something .......write to the government and ask.

Can you tell me how did you arrived at this conclusion that Tosk seems to be the true Albanian, or how this is a historical fact?
How did you arrived at such conclusion? Was again the grandfather of this your imaginary albanian friend who told you the story of bastarnae?
There is life outside of your room Sile. Stop wasting your time with t-rolling in internet.

 

[Zanatis]

Guys, stop wasting time with Sile. It's useless since he cannot contribute to the topic like Ownstyler for example and he's not interested in learning/sharing/discovering but in "teaching".

As for the Standard language, many brought some great sources and explanations but obviously there is more to that than what we generalize here. It is true that Gheg has preserved many archaic features, but if you dig up enough into the topic you'll discover that Tosk has it's own share of preserved archaic features that Gheg lost.

On the other hand, non-Albanians and Albanians living outside of Albania itself (diaspora, Kosovo, Macedonia, Greece, Montenegro, etc.) are also not very knowledgeable when it comes to the Gheg-Tosk differences. So far I think only Laberia, blevins, and myself know what I'm talking about. Standard Albanian is just an ugly fake version of Tosk and I'd be way more happier to have the dialect of Laberia as Standard than this crippled version we have, as the Laberia or any other dialect would definitely cover many gaps and make it easier in expressing ourselves. And the accent used to speak the Standard is horrible and makes you sound like a 'bythqim' lol

@Gannicus you need to do more reading before establishing your own theories because it seems you're very quick to come to conclusions but in the same time you drop your previous ones and jump to new ones immediately. If you continue like you'll end up so confused because like in any other field there's always conflicting evidence and more of it is being published every day. So why break your head every month when you can just wait for ancient and medieval DNA to answer your specific questions. If you want to attribute the Albanian language to R1b then Gheg Albanians would be your candidates since they have more of it, but in my opinion that doesn't even matter.

If you've been reading Eupedia for years you'll know that Maciamo first attributed E-V13 to Northern Africans and connected it to the fact why regions with E-V13 are so dolichocephalic, when in reality you have E-V13 Albanians mostly from mountains belonging to the Dinaric subrace and being too brachycephalic and light pigmented for such a Southern country. And only recently we start to see more evidence of E-V13 being most likely Central European or having spread from there at least and it makes much more sense if you want to connect genetics to anthropology rather than some mysterious seafarers from Tunisia.

 

[Gannicus]

Guys, stop wasting time with Sile. It's useless since he cannot contribute to the topic like Ownstyler for example and he's not interested in learning/sharing/discovering but in "teaching".

As for the Standard language, many brought some great sources and explanations but obviously there is more to that than what we generalize here. It is true that Gheg has preserved many archaic features, but if you dig up enough into the topic you'll discover that Tosk has it's own share of preserved archaic features that Gheg lost.

On the other hand, non-Albanians and Albanians living outside of Albania itself (diaspora, Kosovo, Macedonia, Greece, Montenegro, etc.) are also not very knowledgeable when it comes to the Gheg-Tosk differences. So far I think only Laberia, blevins, and myself know what I'm talking about. Standard Albanian is just an ugly fake version of Tosk and I'd be way more happier to have the dialect of Laberia as Standard than this crippled version we have, as the Laberia or any other dialect would definitely cover many gaps and make it easier in expressing ourselves. And the accent used to speak the Standard is horrible and makes you sound like a 'bythqim' lol

@Gannicus you need to do more reading before establishing your own theories because it seems you're very quick to come to conclusions but in the same time you drop your previous ones and jump to new ones immediately. If you continue like you'll end up so confused because like in any other field there's always conflicting evidence and more of it is being published every day. So why break your head every month when you can just wait for ancient and medieval DNA to answer your specific questions. If you want to attribute the Albanian language to R1b then Gheg Albanians would be your candidates since they have more of it, but in my opinion that doesn't even matter.

If you've been reading Eupedia for years you'll know that Maciamo first attributed E-V13 to Northern Africans and connected it to the fact why regions with E-V13 are so dolichocephalic, when in reality you have E-V13 Albanians mostly from mountains belonging to the Dinaric subrace and being too brachycephalic and light pigmented for such a Southern country. And only recently we start to see more evidence of E-V13 being most likely Central European or having spread from there at least and it makes much more sense if you want to connect genetics to anthropology rather than some mysterious seafarers from Tunisia.

Thank you really much zanatis, i really appriciate when some one with more knwolege then me teaches me something new or even debunks my beliefs if thy are wrong, about your advices i thank you and I am gonna do as you said, i am quite new to genetics and i know i have to do a lot of research and mean while i would like to follow, at least as a spectator your arguments and the progress yoy do here.
As a lot of people, yes i am part of the diaspora too, i live in italy, about the standardized tosk, being from myzeqeja, particularly from Korçë, yes it is kinda weird, for example when i see albanian news on youtube sometimes i said ti my self:"am I wrong pronouncing it or sonething weird is going on here about albanian language?".
Then about E-V13 yes, I am of your thaughts, if not i think that: E-V13 or better E in general developed somewhere else from north africa, i think neither middle east is a candidate, you will know better then me, for the moment being I assume from eastern europe and then went to central europe, this around 20000 years ago, i even think that northern africans are a branch of E that separated fron the original E people group and went to africa via middle east, there semitic-hamitic languages sprode even to E people from J1 people, this would ezplain why berbers/maghrebi people are so white looking compared to other middle easterns like proto-arabs, and this would even explain why E albanians, like J2b and R1b afterall, look really white skinned, now it stays to real experts like you to find evidence, i have still a lot to read.


P.s.
I had some serious laughs in the "kosovo haplogoups" thread when you and trojet were dealing with a serbian guy trying to make albanan R1b closer to the armenian one and trying to fabricate bulls****s on how albanian is related not only to iranic but even to hindic just to say the same fairytale of us coming from caucasus, LoL, delusional hahahahhahhahahaha.
And even your famous post of slavs having a thick head that needs to be smashed sevral times before understanding anything.

 

[Johane Derite]

Guys, stop wasting time with Sile. It's useless since he cannot contribute to the topic like Ownstyler for example and he's not interested in learning/sharing/discovering but in "teaching".

As for the Standard language, many brought some great sources and explanations but obviously there is more to that than what we generalize here. It is true that Gheg has preserved many archaic features, but if you dig up enough into the topic you'll discover that Tosk has it's own share of preserved archaic features that Gheg lost.

On the other hand, non-Albanians and Albanians living outside of Albania itself (diaspora, Kosovo, Macedonia, Greece, Montenegro, etc.) are also not very knowledgeable when it comes to the Gheg-Tosk differences. So far I think only Laberia, blevins, and myself know what I'm talking about. Standard Albanian is just an ugly fake version of Tosk and I'd be way more happier to have the dialect of Laberia as Standard than this crippled version we have, as the Laberia or any other dialect would definitely cover many gaps and make it easier in expressing ourselves. And the accent used to speak the Standard is horrible and makes you sound like a 'bythqim' lol

I dont doubt at all Tosk preserved many features. But I unfortunately have to disagree with Laberia's reasoning here:

" Gegërishtja kishte më shumë traditë në lëvrimin e gjuhës shqipe me priftërinjtë katolikë, por ishte më shumë e prirur drejt poezisë.

Ndërsa Toskërishtja vërtet filloi të lëvrohet më vonë, por nxori shumë autorë dhe ç'është më e rëndësishmja nxorri prozatorë, krahas poetëve. Dhe gjuha e përditshme që flasim nuk është poezi por prozë. "

The reason Tosk produced more prose authors is in my opinion more political, economic and historical, not something inherent in the dialect or its structure itself. If that were the case then the English, German and other languages with
infinitives, and similar verb forms would be lacking with prose also. Arabic doesn't have an infinitive, and yet it is a very poetry oriented literary culture as opposed to prose. The modes of life and social, economical, political factors affect this more i think.

Secondly, Gheg Albanians speak Gheg in their everyday life not only when reciting poetry, and so of course if they aren't given the space to write prose in the dialect that they speak, this will alienate and not really achieve anything positive as well
as make it less likely that they will write "succesful prose."


Next point:

"60 vjet mbas shpalljes së pavarësisë ishin të mjaftueshëm për të testuar dy dialektet në përballje me sfidat e modernitetit. "

This isn't true at all. Asymmetrical levels of infrastructural development and political conditions in those 60 years is no way near enough to have a clear picture to make such a case. The road from Prizren to Kukes just in my lifetime
has become connected sufficiently. It used to be an at least 8 hour trip by car and extremely shaky and rocky and even dangerous when I was a child. Now its a highway that you can travel to very fast and without issue.

My final opinion on the matter is this: The standardized version needs to teach the next generations how to do both. In my opinion pronunciations, rhotacisms, vocabulary are totally secondary issues that are near irrelevant (Shqipni apo Shqipëri) compared to the structural verb form differences. Albanians should be fluent in using both, and its not that hard to envision a revision of policy that accommodates this. It will enrichen the language and give authors more tools to work with.

I see no reasonable argument for only having one. Neither Tosk's subjunctive nor Ghegs infinitive need be culled.

I am very against anything being removed from either Tosk or Gheg because I think both of them contain their treasures hidden within them.

 

[Zanatis]

@Johane, just to make myself clear, I wasn't agreeing with Laberia on that point at all. I consider the change of Standard in 1972 a crime and I am myself a strong supporter of reintroducing Gheg as a Standard and beyond that. We should introduce many features from Bogdani and Buzuku, which will fill the gaps between Gheg and Tosk.

Malesia region for example uses -ua just like Tosk, and I want to see a Standard that instead of 'c'fare ke bere' to say 'c'far/c'a ke bam', not bere, bo, or ba, or similarly 'per te shkuar' should be 'per me shkuam' but I don't remember if until the 17th century it was me shkuam or simply me shkua like we use it today. That 'm' in the end would make sense since there's the Tosk rhotacism 'r' in the end while Gheg lost it.

 

[LABERIA]

Once you agree that the decision was political, which it was, you also have to accept that the "reasoning" behind it was simply a way to justify it. Otherwise you risk believing the wolf who justifies eating the lamb because it spilled his water even though the lamb drank further downstream. The two dialects are so similar that if one of them can't fully transmit a particular form of literary expression, neither can the other. If one can, so can the other. By the way, the administration of Albania mainly used Gheg before WWII, and mainly Tosk after it. So both are fully functional, and the decision was political, let's leave it there.

I don't agree with this story of lamb and the wolf. Maybe this can be used in other languages and situations, but not with Albanian language. Here we are talking about a single language with different dialects and not two languages and not even two dialects Geg and Tosk. What you and others must understand is that there is not a Geg or Tosk dialect. There are several dialects grouped as Tosk and Geg. We followed a process of standardization, but we didn't imposed a language of a part of population to the other part. You know that in France at the beginning of XX century barely half of population spoke French? Do you know on what processes passed the languages of other Balkan countries including the Turkish? We didn't invented a new language, we didn't cleaned 80% of the language as others did, etc. I have all the reasons to be proud of my language and my ancestors who preserved this language who is not part of any language families, it was not the language of an Empire, civilization or religious institution, but was a language the use of which was forbidden with a Imperial decree, a Ferman of a Sultan and was accursed by the lackey of the Turks, the Patriarchane of Istanbul. We have martyrs of Albanian language, over there, down in South, in the non prestigious south as this Nick, probably a Greek from Australia quoted by Sile says. You know what Petro Nini said?

Kundèr mallkimit të gjuhës shqipe
(Fragment)
E dègjo, or qir dhaskali,
Tè tè them shkurtèr njè fjalë,
Kjo mendje duhej së pari
Po tani të mori malë!
Jo grekèria tè jetè,
Kryeprift e Patrik vetè,
Po dhe Krishti ndè na thèntè
Se- “Jam grek, jakni pas meje”
Do ti themi:”Pa mblidh mèntè,
Se shqiptari s’vjen pas teje!”
Grekrit e zgjebur mejtojnè
Me tè rreme tè fitojnè,
Kanè zèn’ e na mallkojnè
Dhe na shajnè Shqipèrinè,
Vetè-vehten turpèrojnè
Dhe çnderojnë Perèndinë!”

Certainly the decision to standardize the Albanian language was a political decision. It was a necessary decision to face the challenges of the modern era. Here we are not talking about things like, how much is a kilo of tomatoes. There were the scholars of the University of Prishtina who since 1968 had asked and pushed for the beginning of this process because they were in a state of occupation and felt the pressure of the Serbs. We could not continue in this amateur way, everyone in his dialect. In the end, we had to decide.
And it's not what this Nikos says:

The postwar standard was not Southern Geg. It was Southern Tosk. So it was not a middle point of Tosk and Geg; it was at the extreme of dialects spoken within Albania. And it wasn’t spoken anywhere massively prestigious: it was spoken in places near the southern border of the country, like Vlorë and Korçë and Gjirokastër.

Mallory and Adams are correct:

The standard before World War II was a variety of southern Gheg while the post-war standard has been a northern variety of Tosk (all examples given here are in the contemporary standard).

So, basically all the attempts during the XX century were concentrated in this region of Central Albania. And in Central Albania are the biggest city and probably after 30 years with all these movements of populations the most important dialect will be the dialect of Tirana. The fear that some people have that different dialects would disappear, have nothing to do with the Standard Language. It's because people have decide to leave the mountains and live in New York or in Tirana. Of course you will lose your dialect. If you want to preserve it, go back in the village. And exactly talking about this situation of huge movement of peoples, Standard Language turn to be very important in preserving our language. Because we see some emigrants who can not speak Albanian, let alone the dialects, meanwhile the Arbëresh in Italy after 600 years continue to preserve with jealousy the language of their ancestors.
The scholars who partecipated in the Congress of 1972, were our best scholars. We know that North Albania, being much more isolated has preserved a much more pure language than South, Faik Konica said this. But exactly for the same reason, because the south was much more in contact with the modern world had more expressive potential. These are the two columns where it is based the Standard Language. The reason of the attacks against the Standard, apart the naivity of the people which i explained, you can find by reading carefully this Nikos from Melbourne:

And Aziz Dida’s answer to my question Is there interest in keeping Geg as the standard language of Kosovo? shows, that has proven somewhat challenging for Kosovars.

This guy is following the trend.
There is this new geopolitical reality, a new state. And of course there are foreign interests in inventing a new ethnic identity of course with a new language.

 

[LABERIA]

I dont doubt at all Tosk preserved many features. But I unfortunately have to disagree with Laberia's reasoning here:

" Gegërishtja kishte më shumë traditë në lëvrimin e gjuhës shqipe me priftërinjtë katolikë, por ishte më shumë e prirur drejt poezisë.

Ndërsa Toskërishtja vërtet filloi të lëvrohet më vonë, por nxori shumë autorë dhe ç'është më e rëndësishmja nxorri prozatorë, krahas poetëve. Dhe gjuha e përditshme që flasim nuk është poezi por prozë. "

The reason Tosk produced more prose authors is in my opinion more political, economic and historical, not something inherent in the dialect or its structure itself. If that were the case then the English, German and other languages with
infinitives, and similar verb forms would be lacking with prose also. Arabic doesn't have an infinitive, and yet it is a very poetry oriented literary culture as opposed to prose. The modes of life and social, economical, political factors affect this more i think.

Secondly, Gheg Albanians speak Gheg in their everyday life not only when reciting poetry, and so of course if they aren't given the space to write prose in the dialect that they speak, this will alienate and not really achieve anything positive as well
as make it less likely that they will write "succesful prose."


Next point:

"60 vjet mbas shpalljes së pavarësisë ishin të mjaftueshëm për të testuar dy dialektet në përballje me sfidat e modernitetit. "

This isn't true at all. Asymmetrical levels of infrastructural development and political conditions in those 60 years is no way near enough to have a clear picture to make such a case. The road from Prizren to Kukes just in my lifetime
has become connected sufficiently. It used to be an at least 8 hour trip by car and extremely shaky and rocky and even dangerous when I was a child. Now its a highway that you can travel to very fast and without issue.

My final opinion on the matter is this: The standardized version needs to teach the next generations how to do both. In my opinion pronunciations, rhotacisms, vocabulary are totally secondary issues that are near irrelevant (Shqipni apo Shqipëri) compared to the structural verb form differences. Albanians should be fluent in using both, and its not that hard to envision a revision of policy that accommodates this. It will enrichen the language and give authors more tools to work with.

I see no reasonable argument for only having one. Neither Tosk's subjunctive nor Ghegs infinitive need be culled.

I am very against anything being removed from either Tosk or Gheg because I think both of them contain their treasures hidden within them.

Johane, the Standard was necessary and i think we agree in this. If you decide to use as Standard a southern geg dialect, i.e. Tirana and Durrës dialects, you kill the poetry of Fishta.