Who were and are the Albanians and their DNA

[Gannicus]

I don't agree with this story of lamb and the wolf. Maybe this can be used in other languages and situations, but not with Albanian language. Here we are talking about a single language with different dialects and not two languages and not even two dialects Geg and Tosk. What you and others must understand is that there is not a Geg or Tosk dialect. There are several dialects grouped as Tosk and Geg. We followed a process of standardization, but we didn't imposed a language of a part of population to the other part. You know that in France at the beginning of XX century barely half of population spoke French? Do you know on what processes passed the languages of other Balkan countries including the Turkish? We didn't invented a new language, we didn't cleaned 80% of the language as others did, etc. I have all the reasons to be proud of my language and my ancestors who preserved this language who is not part of any language families, it was not the language of an Empire, civilization or religious institution, but was a language the use of which was forbidden with a Imperial decree, a Ferman of a Sultan and was accursed by the lackey of the Turks, the Patriarchane of Istanbul. We have martyrs of Albanian language, over there, down in South, in the non prestigious south as this Nick, probably a Greek from Australia quoted by Sile says. You know what Petro Nini said?

Certainly the decision to standardize the Albanian language was a political decision. It was a necessary decision to face the challenges of the modern era. Here we are not talking about things like, how much is a kilo of tomatoes. There were the scholars of the University of Prishtina who since 1968 had asked and pushed for the beginning of this process because they were in a state of occupation and felt the pressure of the Serbs. We could not continue in this amateur way, everyone in his dialect. In the end, we had to decide.
And it's not what this Nikos says:

Mallory and Adams are correct:

So, basically all the attempts during the XX century were concentrated in this region of Central Albania. And in Central Albania are the biggest city and probably after 30 years with all these movements of populations the most important dialect will be the dialect of Tirana. The fear that some people have that different dialects would disappear, have nothing to do with the Standard Language. It's because people have decide to leave the mountains and live in New York or in Tirana. Of course you will lose your dialect. If you want to preserve it, go back in the village. And exactly talking about this situation of huge movement of peoples, Standard Language turn to be very important in preserving our language. Because we see some emigrants who can not speak Albanian, let alone the dialects, meanwhile the Arbëresh in Italy after 600 years continue to preserve with jealousy the language of their ancestors.
The scholars who partecipated in the Congress of 1972, were our best scholars. We know that North Albania, being much more isolated has preserved a much more pure language than South, Faik Konica said this. But exactly for the same reason, because the south was much more in contact with the modern world had more expressive potential. These are the two columns where it is based the Standard Language. The reason of the attacks against the Standard, apart the nativity of the people which i explained, you can find by reading carefully this Nikos from Melbourne:

This guy is following the trend.
There is this new geopolitical reality, a new state. And of course there are foreign interests in inventing a new ethnic identity of course with a new language.

For exampe i am tosk of myxeqieja, also call my self Lal, and i speak myzeqar, In Laberia(Vlorë, gjirokater,etc.) they speak Lab, even do we are classified as tosks we know we are not exactly the same but different, always being albanians of course.

 

[LABERIA]

Thank you really much zanatis, i really appriciate when some one with more knwolege then me teaches me something new or even debunks my beliefs if thy are wrong, about your advices i thank you and I am gonna do as you said, i am quite new to genetics and i know i have to do a lot of research and mean while i would like to follow, at least as a spectator your arguments and the progress yoy do here.
As a lot of people, yes i am part of the diaspora too, i live in italy, about the standardized tosk, being from myzeqeja, particularly from Korçë, yes it is kinda weird, for example when i see albanian news on youtube sometimes i said ti my self:"am I wrong pronouncing it or sonething weird is going on here about albanian language?".
Then about E-V13 yes, I am of your thaughts, if not i think that: E-V13 or better E in general developed somewhere else from north africa, i think neither middle east is a candidate, you will know better then me, for the moment being I assume from eastern europe and then went to central europe, this around 20000 years ago, i even think that northern africans are a branch of E that separated fron the original E people group and went to africa via middle east, there semitic-hamitic languages sprode even to E people from J1 people, this would ezplain why berbers/maghrebi people are so white looking compared to other middle easterns like proto-arabs, and this would even explain why E albanians, like J2b and R1b afterall, look really white skinned, now it stays to real experts like you to find evidence, i have still a lot to read.


P.s.
I had some serious laughs in the "kosovo haplogoups" thread when you and trojet were dealing with a serbian guy trying to make albanan R1b closer to the armenian one and trying to fabricate bulls****s on how albanian is related not only to iranic but even to hindic just to say the same fairytale of us coming from caucasus, LoL, delusional hahahahhahhahahaha.
And even your famous post of slavs having a thick head that needs to be smashed sevral times before understanding anything.

Excuse me, but you are from Myzeqeja or from Korça?

 

[Gannicus]

I thinm we should avaluate our differneces not repress them, it is because of the fault of similar thaughts that for example in italy you don't hear anymore peope speaking milanese, venetian or piedmonese, except from some old people in pubs, but you hear everyone speaking a standard tuscan version, now the question is simple: do we want the same to happen even with albanian dialects?
If we loose those we have not that much to preserve at an end italians at least on their own have art, statues, and other stuff to compensate the loss, but we albanians? I don't think there's that much left to us except from these little things/traditions.

 

[Gannicus]

Excuse me, but you are from Myzeqeja or from Korça?

Sorry, my fault, my father is from DIVJAKE, near lushnje myzeqeja, my mom is from korçë/ laberia

 

[Johane Derite]

Johane, the Standard was necessary and i think we agree in this. If you decide to use as Standard a southern geg dialect, i.e. Tirana and Durrës dialects, you kill the poetry of Fishta.

Yes I agree it was necessary, but I think there is something wrong with it from the current state of the post war kosova diaspora as well as local discord. I would value your opinion on this:

http://plisi.org/gjuhsi/gegnishtja-gjuhe-huej/

 

[Gannicus]

Sorry if i always do mistakes even about basic stuff, i have been born in italy, fact that i know fluent albanian thanks to my grandma is already a mircale, about regions, traditions and habits i just know the qeleshe,the typical dresses and the valle/pogonishte dances hand in the hand forming circles of people, not that much out of this.

 

[blevins13]

I have to thank Gannicus for keeping our discussion up....


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[Johane Derite]

Yes I agree it was necessary, but I think there is something wrong with it from the current state of the post war kosova diaspora as well as local discord. I would value your opinion on this:

http://plisi.org/gjuhsi/gegnishtja-gjuhe-huej/

"Standardi me paskajore, gjuhë e huej për popullin e thjeshtë tosk. Ta zbërthejmë së pari argumetin [2] mbi vështirësitë që bjen futja e paskajores (për toskët), edhe t’i marrim, për pak kohë, të mirëqena argumentet e Fiedlerit. Ai pohon se [2A] toskët nuk janë në gjendje me e përdorë paskajoren si duhet, e se [2B] shqipen me paskajore do t’u duhej me e mësu si nji gjuhë të huej.


Tue i mbajtë të mirëqena, argumentet le t’i përmbysim. Nëse toskëve të thjeshtë shqipja standarde me paskajore u vjen «gjuhë e huej», atëherë po kaq «e huej» u vjen gegëve shqipja standarde pa paskajore. Nji që në sistemin e vet përdor struktura të tipit «A mundesh me shkue me i thanë me ardhë pak këtu?» del në ujna krejt të hueja kur i duhet me e ndryshu strukturën në «A mund të shkosh t’i thuash të vijë pak këtu?». Fiedleri, e as të tjerë që mbështesin këtë linjë mendimi, nuk sqarojnë ma tej pse asht në rregull nji standard që gegëve u vjen si «gjuhë e huej», sa kohë që ai veç toskëve t’u rrjedhë flur si gjuhë burimore.


Kuptohet, vetë argumenti [2A] nuk ka kurrfarë baze në realitetin sociolinguistik: toskët janë në gjendje me e përdorë paskajoren pa fijen e problemit. Dhe kundërargument për këtë janë jo veç shembujt e panumërt të toskëve që paskajorizojnë, por edhe vetë thjeshtësia e trajtës paskajore: në shumicën dërrmuese të rasteve thjesht ke me e shkurtu pjesoren e me ia paravu pjesëzën me.


Fundja, argumenti asht krejt në favor të paskajores: nji shqipe me paskajore veç çka kish me i vetëdijesu toskët se përmasat e asaj që njihet si shqipe standarde, e prandaj detyrimisht «korrekte» (qysh standardi perceptohet prej përdoruesve të tij), kapërcejnë arealet veç të shqipes toske, dhe kjo, ç’asht e drejta, kish me shërby si nji element fort i fortë përafrues mes dy gojëve të shqipes, por edhe shqiptarëve vetë. Aktualisht, nuk ka nji arsye pse folësi i toskënishtes të mbajë vesh për me qëmtu njisi gjuhësore prej arealesh gegnishtfolëse, tek këto i kundron thjesht si «dialekte», me fjalë të tjera, të nënrendituna e të padenja për shqyrtim.


Dhe, tekembramja, vetë paskajorja e përfshime në sistemin e shqipes standarde nuk asht se kthehet në detyrim taksativ: kush lidh qykën mos me e përdorë kurrë, nuk asht se gjobitet. Struktura të tipit «duhem me shku» e «duhet të shkoj» do të bashkëjetonin mirëfilli si mundësi e stilema paralele."

 

[Gannicus]

Uh and still, my.mother is not entirely from korçë, her father is from berat, and has been born and lived in poliçan, her parents were working there to the armament factory that produced ak 47s during communist regime.

 

[Gannicus]

I have to thank Gannicus for keeping our discussion up....


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Seriously man, i am happy to hear it, even do i have said so much crap i am happy that at least i have favoured a sane and healthy discussion between you.

 

[LABERIA]

I have to thank Gannicus for keeping our discussion up....


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And what's your opinion on this topic?

 

[LABERIA]

Yes I agree it was necessary, but I think there is something wrong with it from the current state of the post war kosova diaspora as well as local discord. I would value your opinion on this:
http://plisi.org/gjuhsi/gegnishtja-gjuhe-huej/

I will watch later in the evening this documentary and i will read the article. But what this Gino suggests in his comment is what exactly Nikos is suggesting. It's the cantonization of the country. I guess you can understand the consequences.

 

[blevins13]

And what's your opinion on this topic?

I will wait for more data especially Dna to come up with a linguistic theory....for the moment I am not sure.


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[LABERIA]

I will wait for more data especially Dna to come up with a linguistic theory....for the moment I am not sure.


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Të pyeta sepse të doli emri.

 

[Ownstyler]

I don't agree with this story of lamb and the wolf. Maybe this can be used in other languages and situations, but not with Albanian language. Here we are talking about a single language with different dialects and not two languages and not even two dialects Geg and Tosk. What you and others must understand is that there is not a Geg or Tosk dialect. There are several dialects grouped as Tosk and Geg. We followed a process of standardization, but we didn't imposed a language of a part of population to the other part. You know that in France at the beginning of XX century barely half of population spoke French? Do you know on what processes passed the languages of other Balkan countries including the Turkish? We didn't invented a new language, we didn't cleaned 80% of the language as others did, etc. I have all the reasons to be proud of my language and my ancestors who preserved this language who is not part of any language families, it was not the language of an Empire, civilization or religious institution, but was a language the use of which was forbidden with a Imperial decree, a Ferman of a Sultan and was accursed by the lackey of the Turks, the Patriarchane of Istanbul. We have martyrs of Albanian language, over there, down in South, in the non prestigious south as this Nick, probably a Greek from Australia quoted by Sile says. You know what Petro Nini said?

I know all of this. You misunderstood my point. I wasn't arguing against standardization. But I disagree with your point here:

Johane, një nga arsyet përse u vendos që gjuha standarte duhet të bazohesh në Toskërishte ishte pikërisht përkthimi i Shekspirit, ndërmjet kryeveprave të tjera letërsisë botërore, nga Fan Noli. Gegërishtja kishte më shumë traditë në lëvrimin e gjuhës shqipe me priftërinjtë katolikë, por ishte më shumë e prirur drejt poezisë. Ndërsa Toskërishtja vërtet filloi të lëvrohet më vonë, por nxori shumë autorë dhe ç'është më e rëndësishmja nxorri prozatorë, krahas poetëve. Dhe gjuha e përditshme që flasim nuk është poezi por prozë. 60 vjet mbas shpalljes së pavarësisë ishin të mjaftueshëm për të testuar dy dialektet në përballje me sfidat e modernitetit.

You are saying the Tosk dialect is better equipped to face "the challenges of modernity", or at least it was found to be so in 1972.

I mentioned the wolf story because the communist government of the time wanted a certain outcome and organized the discussion among scholars to legitimize it. I am sure that if such discussions had taken place in the 30's similar arguments would have been found to conclude that the Gheg dialect is the only one that bla, bla, bla... Power dictates right in these cases.

Now if you want we can open a new thread and discuss the two dialects, which would be interesting, but here I was simply stating the that the Congress of 1972 would have produced the same conclusions regardless of the merits of the two dialects.

 

[blevins13]

Të pyeta sepse të doli emri.

It is hard to judge a dish without knowing its ingredients, hopefully Dna will tell us more about people movement and we can undermine language evolution.


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[LABERIA]

I know all of this. You misunderstood my point. I wasn't arguing against standardization. But I disagree with your point here:
You are saying the Tosk dialect is better equipped to face "the challenges of modernity", or at least it was found to be so in 1972.

I explained my point again in my post 579.

I mentioned the wolf story because the communist government of the time wanted a certain outcome and organized the discussion among scholars to legitimize it. I am sure that if such discussions had taken place in the 30's similar arguments would have been found to conclude that the Gheg dialect is the only one that bla, bla, bla... Power dictates right in these cases.

I don't think that a discussion between Noli, Konica, Fishta, etc, would have concluded in a blah, blah, blah...

Now if you want we can open a new thread and discuss the two dialects, which would be interesting, but here I was simply stating the that the Congress of 1972 would have produced the same conclusions regardless of the merits of the two dialects.

I am sorry but i am not a linguist, so i can not enter in specific discussions about this topic.
My point is that our obligation in this moment is simply to preserve our language. We don't have in this moment scholars, institutions and state structures able to undertake language reforms, if this is necessary. Persons who insist in this direction have obscure and anti-Albanian agendas.

 

[Sile]

Sile, you said:
Can you tell me how did you arrived at this conclusion that Tosk seems to be the true Albanian, or how this is a historical fact?
How did you arrived at such conclusion? Was again the grandfather of this your imaginary albanian friend who told you the story of bastarnae?
There is life outside of your room Sile. Stop wasting your time with t-rolling in internet.

What conclusion ..........its fact, tosk is the national language.........get the government to bring it back to pre -communist then........its the people that need to make the changes......just remember that over time the young will only know about tosk.
.
imaginary? ..........i work with him, he is albanian -macedonia...does that make him not albanian ........I do not know how your "rules" apply.
.
I know you just follow the nonsense of "from illyrian " like most, due to nationalistic propganda, ...........there is no genetic, linguistic or historical proof that will ever be accepted by you..........the ****** are the ones here spinning these fabrications..........it is very clear, if you want to be illyrians, you must claim also to be non balkan people from noricum because that is where history first notes the illyrians, that is where history notes the celtic-illyrian merger to form halstatt culture...........if you want to believe your illyrian , then believe this, if you want to believe that albanians where always in the balkans and you where there in the early iron-age, bronze-age or before, then you cannot be illyrian ..........you cannot have it both ways .
For some history of people starts at different times ............you are one of these

 

[Sile]

None of that was happening in the decades following the French revolution. The French nation-state standardized French by imposing it in the education system and replacing all regional dialects and other languages. So by your own logic, standardized French is the original language of the world.

a lot of nations impose a language for its use ..............it does not mean it is the correct language. It means the stronger ethnic people impose their ways on the minority.
.
The castilians impose that castile language as the spanish language and the catalans use it but do not agree, there still is 8 million speaking catalan.
The English impose english on the welsh and scots.
.
just note....all linguistic scholars state there are only dialects in the world.
.
here is an old saying ...............the difference between a language and a dialect is that a language has an army and a dialect does not .....................so pre-montenegro was a dialect, now since they formed a country , that exact same dialect turned into a language, recognized world wide.
.
Kosovo if they want ,can very easily state that gheg is their national language and the world will recognise it ............then the world would have 2 "albanian " languages

 

[LABERIA]

What conclusion ..........its fact, tosk is the national language.........get the government to bring it back to pre -communist then........its the people that need to make the changes......just remember that over time the young will only know about tosk.
.
imaginary? ..........i work with him, he is albanian -macedonia...does that make him not albanian ........I do not know how your "rules" apply.
.
I know you just follow the nonsense of "from illyrian " like most, due to nationalistic propganda, ...........there is no genetic, linguistic or historical proof that will ever be accepted by you..........the ****** are the ones here spinning these fabrications..........it is very clear, if you want to be illyrians, you must claim also to be non balkan people from noricum because that is where history first notes the illyrians, that is where history notes the celtic-illyrian merger to form halstatt culture...........if you want to believe your illyrian , then believe this, if you want to believe that albanians where always in the balkans and you where there in the early iron-age, bronze-age or before, then you cannot be illyrian ..........you cannot have it both ways .
For some history of people starts at different times ............you are one of these

You didn't answer to the question.
Follow my advice.