Phenotypes of the Greeks

[Riverman]

Not a good idea to go by people who have bleached their hair, plus whatever the sun does (look at the hair below the top layers and look at the root line in the second photo).

23andme claims they found allels associated with photobleaching:

Photobleaching is pretty common among people with European ancestry. In a recent 23andMe study, a little more than 72 percent of customers who agreed to participate in research (and have European ancestry) reported that the sun lightens their hair.

https://www.23andme.com/topics/traits/hair-photobleaching/

Would be interesting to know whether there are population-level differences for this trait, independent of general hair color. I noticed even in childhood that some of my classmates were reacting more heavily than others. Like one went into summer vacations dark brown and came back light brown-dark blond, whereas others, while being heavily tanned, didn't change at all.
That's also something I could observe among some relatives, that they differ a lot in this respect.

 

[Angela]

23andme claims they found allels associated with photobleaching:


https://www.23andme.com/topics/traits/hair-photobleaching/

Would be interesting to know whether there are population-level differences for this trait, independent of general hair color. I noticed even in childhood that some of my classmates were reacting more heavily than others. Like one went into summer vacations dark brown and came back light brown-dark blond, whereas others, while being heavily tanned, didn't change at all.
That's also something I could observe among some relatives, that they differ a lot in this respect.

I completely agree with you. My daughter was born platinum blonde; it darkened to light brown/medium brown, but starting in May it started and starts to bleach and by September is blonde again. However, as with the "blonde" Greek, the hair underneath is still darker. If it's really just photo bleaching the part line bleaches too, which isn't the case with this man. Plus, it's just got a a very recognizable "box bleach" color.

For what it's worth both her results and mine say our hair photo bleaches, with mine getting reddish streaks, which makes sense since I have one allele for red hair from my father's family. My son's results also point to photo bleaching and it's true. It's not true for my husband, and indeed it's almost black all year round.

 

[real expert]

Not a good idea to go by people who have bleached their hair, plus whatever the sun does (look at the hair below the top layers and look at the root line in the second photo).

Maybe you have to be a woman to understand these things. There's a reason why they sell so much bleach in Britain, Germany, and even the Scandinavian countries. Even children who are platinum haired usually turn brown haired with age. I know because half my father's family was like that. Even I had medium reddish streaked hair as a kid. Like the below photo.

The first guy is naturally dark blond, although his hair here is bleached to look some shades lighter. So he's blond. Furthermore, dark blond hair tends to get lighter and brighter in the summer naturally. I don‘t think that the other guy bleached anything since his beard and eyebrows are kinda strawberry blond.


It's a matter of fact that many Germans or Scandinavians that bleach their hair are still naturally blond, just not platinum or very bright/ whitish blond; but ash, sandy or dark blond. Many folks forget that blond hair comes in different shades and hues. By the way, there are still millions of naturally light blond folks in Northern Europe and Germany. Next to platinum blond hair medium or dark blond hair looks pretty dark anyway.

 

[Sir Philip]

Sorry for the off topic:
I posted my classfication thread in Anthropology & Ethnology section and got no answers, did I post in the wrong section?

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[Angela]

The first guy is naturally dark blond, although his hair here is bleached to look some shades lighter. So he's blond. Furthermore, dark blond hair tends to get lighter and brighter in the summer naturally. I don‘t think that the other guy bleached anything since his beard and eyebrows are kinda strawberry blond.


It's a matter of fact that many Germans or Scandinavians that bleach their hair are still naturally blond, just not platinum or very bright/ whitish blond; but ash, sandy or dark blond. Many folks forget that blond hair comes in different shades and hues. By the way, there are still millions of naturally light blond folks in Northern Europe and Germany. Next to platinum blond hair medium or dark blond hair looks pretty dark anyway.

OK, calm down. Never said anything to the contrary.

Yes, opinions differ. What people call "dark blonde" is really just light brown as far as I'm concerned, and I've been surrounded by English and German and Irish descent since I moved to this country, and more importantly I've sat next to them in the colorist chair, and their hair by their thirties is just plain BROWN in my opinion. It's just part of the aging process.

This isn't blonde hair of any variety; it's brown hair that photobleaches.

 

[real expert]

23andme claims they found allels associated with photobleaching:


https://www.23andme.com/topics/traits/hair-photobleaching/

Would be interesting to know whether there are population-level differences for this trait, independent of general hair color. I noticed even in childhood that some of my classmates were reacting more heavily than others. Like one went into summer vacations dark brown and came back light brown-dark blond, whereas others, while being heavily tanned, didn't change at all.
That's also something I could observe among some relatives, that they differ a lot in this respect.

I know some people with blond-red hair and the hues and shades of their hair change all the time. One time their hair looks almost fiery red or red as a carrot while at other times their hair looks light blond, and very bright blond. Boris Becker and a football player called Effenberg are such candidates. Tacitus described the Germanic people as being "rutilae comae" = "red, golden-red, reddish yellow". Therefore sometimes Germanic tribes are being described as redheads or blond at the same time. Anyway, I wonder why does some people hair color look red one time while the other time it's blond.

 

[real expert]

OK, calm down. Never said anything to the contrary.

Yes, opinions differ. What people call "dark blonde" is really just light brown as far as I'm concerned, and I've been surrounded by English and German and Irish descent since I moved to this country, and more importantly I've sat next to them in the colorist chair, and their hair by their thirties is just plain BROWN in my opinion. It's just part of the aging process.

This isn't blonde hair of any variety; it's brown hair that photobleaches.

I know the difference between dark blond and light brown hair, though.
When I say dark or ash or sandy blond I don't mean light brown hair. Besides, in Germany people with chocolate or dark brown hair are often referred to as having black hair. Hence light brown hair isn't mistaken for blond in Germany unlike in Southern Europe.

The girls I know who bleach their hair are not brunettes but have dirty or ash-blond hair. Surely they are females with proper brown hair that bleach their hair. What my point was, is that blonde females bleach their hair too not only brunettes.

 

[Sir Philip]

Sorry for the off topic:
I posted my classfication thread in Anthropology & Ethnology section and got no answers, did I post in the wrong section?

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Can someone help me please?

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[MOESAN]

According to who? Cretans have more of an affinity to Caucasus populations, due to the relatively higher amount brought by populations like the Minoans, and previous populations. Not to mention high Anatolian_N. Middle Eastern populations have significant amounts of Anatolian_N, and CHG. The main difference is the levant has a lot of Natufian. This component is not significant in Crete, as shown that the Arab invasion left little to no trace according to the study. So if they look similar, it is not due to levantine related populations, but Caucasus and Anatolian_N; which are also present in the rest of Europe btw. Which is also why some Near East populations, look "white". Moreover, the Levant has small but amount of SSA which is not in Crete.

Middle Eastern people of our days have also Caucasus influence, even if I agree with you as a whole; but it doesn't means Mineiro25 is wrong: he speaks of certain people, not of the average pop. Plus: Levant farmers were already very different of what were the Natufians, metrically speaking. At the individual level I find very surprising persons even among genuine Breton neighbours, very far from the more common types we can find among Bretons.

 

[cybernautic]

Of one thing i'm sure: greeks largely overlap with us (italians)

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Si Seniore !

 

[peloponnesian]

George Papandreou, who was mentioned in this thread as an example of a "MENA-looking" Greek, has about 60% Northern European ancestry, with the rest being mainland Greek. His mother was American of NW European descent and his father was 1/4 of Polish-Lithuanian ancestry. He and his daughter have actually done 23&Me btw. So probably not the best example - or maybe an example of why phenotypes don't correspond with genetics

 

[bigsnake49]

Why are we comparing old men rather than young men and women. Jowls, fat faces, fading hairlines, increased nose and ears size can distort the phenotype.

 

[Mordred]

These conversations about phenotype again. In Sweden or Northern Europe, we only say he looks southern European. That's it. Whether it's Greek, Italian, Spain, France, or Balkan. I very seldom hear any distinguishing factors.

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[Angela]

Well, you're not Southern Europeans, so you don't "see" the differences.

I used to watch quite a few Scandinavian police procedurals, but I've cut way back. In addition to the fact that I find the reactions rather wooden, and the crimes uniformly on the bizarre and disgusting end even for homicides (sexual killings, incest, mutilations), I can barely tell the people apart sometimes with their having, to my eyes, so little variation, so it's hard to follow the story. I'm sure you wouldn't have that problem.

Plus, it's fun to see how good an "eye" you have for the differences. You're not forced to read these threads, you know.

 

[Bekas]

These are how everyday Pontic Greeks (in West Macedonia) look like:

These are the Slavophone speaking Greeks (West Macedonia here):

These are Thracians:

 

[Angela]

Well, to my non-Greek eyes, the Pontic Greeks are the thinnest and the best looking, with finer facial bone structure, and more gracile body types.

The Slavophone Greeks have more people with a Central European look, finer featured than the Thracians, but the Thracian "type" is also very present. I'd say the Greek Americans I've met look more like the Thracians, with a few lighter Slavophone types.

 

[Angela]

Well, thank-you for the spot on!

 

[bigsnake49]

Well, to my non-Greek eyes, the Pontic Greeks are the thinnest and the best looking, with finer facial bone structure, and more gracile body types.

The Slavophone Greeks have more people with a Central European look, finer featured than the Thracians, but the Thracian "type" is also very present. I'd say the Greek Americans I've met look more like the Thracians, with a few lighter Slavophone types.

Hmmmm...one thing I have noticed about Modern Greek youth nowadays is that they are a lot chunkier than we were at their age but that could also apply to Americans also. However my nephews are pretty skinny. Also good dancers!

I am surprised that the Greek Americans you have met look like Thracians since they are mostly from Peloponnese and the islands with some from Epirus.

These are typical Thracian young people in this video.

 

[Angela]

I was just going on the particular videos on that post.

Your Thracian dancers are obviously more fit, but they still have those very broad faces and strong facial bones. Could it be some Slavic traits? The Pontic Greeks looked to me to have longer, narrower faces and less pronounced facial bones.

As to Greek Americans in the Metropolitan area:

Elderly Greek Americans in Astoria; it's winter so sans tan.

Greek Independence Day Parade-NYC

 

[Bekas]

Hmmmm...one thing I have noticed about Modern Greek youth nowadays is that they are a lot chunkier than we were at their age but that could also apply to Americans also. However my nephews are pretty skinny. Also good dancers!

You said you are from an Arvanitic village. Albanophone villages are latecomers in Thrace (17th-18th+ century, late Ottoman period) in relation to other groups like (Eastern) Rumeliotes, Gagauzes, and even Armenians who trace their settlements in Byzantine Middle Ages.

If you input your raw file into morleydna and it blips Z2106, then you can know for sure your R1b is of Albanian origin.