Phenotypes of the Greeks

These are Cappadokians/Karahmanli (Karahmanids) in East Macedonia.




I try to find videos of normal people, not dancing groups so their faces are visible and the impression of the viewer not altered by traditional clothing/headgear.
 
Bekas said:
You said you are from an Arvanitic village. Albanophone villages are latecomers in Thrace (17th-18th+ century, late Ottoman period) in relation to other groups like (Eastern) Rumeliotes, Gagauzes, and even Armenians who trace their settlements in Byzantine Middle Ages.

If you input your raw file into morleydna and it blips Z2106, then you can know for sure your R1b is of Albanian origin.
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I came from a village that was 90% Arvanites, 10% Greek speaking. The village was 100% Turkish before the exchange of populations in 1922. Both the Arvanites and Greek speakers came from 3 villages on the other side of the river. From the Wikipedia article:

"Οι πρώτοι κάτοικοι προέρχονται στην συντριπτική πλειοψηφία τους, από δύο χωριά αρβανιτόφωνα που όμως κατατάσσονται στα ελληνικά χωριά της περιοχής και που βρίσκονταν λίγο νοτιότερα, στην απέναντι όχθη του Έβρου. Πρόκειται για το Σουλτάνκιοϊ (στα αρβανίτικα Μπιθκούκι και στα ελληνικάΛείβηθρο) και το Ιμπρίκ Τεπέ (στα αρβανίτικα Κιουτέζα και στα ελληνικά Ίμβρασος), στα νότια του Εργίνη ποταμού.
Το 1922 οι ελληνικοί πληθυσμοί μετακινούνται προς το ανεξάρτητο Ελληνικό κράτος διασχίζοντας το ποτάμι και επιλέγουν τους οικισμούς Χάντζιας (Τάρσιον), Τσακιρτζί (Πυρόλιθος)και Μπίντικλι, πιστεύοντας όμως πως σύντομα θα επιστρέψουν στις πατρογονικές του εστίες. Ωστόσο το ποτάμι και οι πλημμύρες έπνιξαν τον κάμπο και ερήμωσαν το Χάντζια (Τάρσιον) και το Τσακιρτζί (Πυρόλιθος) μιας και οι κάτοικοι καταφεύγουν στο Μπίντικλι (Τύχιο) που ήταν σε ύψωμα.
Εκτός από τους αρβανιτόφωνους, ένα 10% του πληθυσμού ήταν οι Ανατολικοθρακιώτες Ντουατζιώτες, που μετακινήθηκαν από το Δοκάριο, ένα χωριό κοντά στο ποτάμι και τα αρβανιτοχώρια, γνωστό και ως Ντουαντζί."

Google Translate:


Arvanitophone villages, but they are classified in the Greek villages of the area and which were located a little further south, on the opposite bank of the Evros. Tepe (in Albanian Kiuteza and in Greek Imvrasos), south of the river Ergini.


In 1922 the Greek populations moved to the independent Greek state crossing the river and chose the settlements of Hantzias (Tarsion), Tsakirtzi (Pyrolithos) and Bidikli, but believing that they would soon return to their ancestral homes. However, the river and the floods drowned the plain and deserted Hanjia (Tarsion) and Tsakirtzi (Pyrolithos) since the inhabitants took refuge in Bidikli (Tychio) which was on a hill.


"Apart from the Arvanitophones, a 10% of the population were the East Thracian Duatziots, who moved from Dokario, a village near the river and the Arvanitochori villages, also known as Duantzi."
https://el.wikipedia.org/wiki/Τυχερό_Έβρου

As far as my Y-DNA, Morley DNA assigns me to R1b L-23 whereas LivingDNA assigns me to M-269. Most autosomal companies assign me a mixture of 50-60% Greek and 40-50% East Balkan. According to the closeness (likeness) statistic I score an 82 closeness score to Peloponnese and Bulgaria with slowly declining scores to the rest of the Balkans and Italy. I have read somewhere that there was some movement of Greeks from Peloponnese and Mainland Greece to Eastern Thrace in 18th and 19th century. I will need to track it down and verify the sources.
 
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Angela said:
I was just going on the particular videos on that post.

Your Thracian dancers are obviously more fit, but they still have those very broad faces and strong facial bones. Could it be some Slavic traits? The Pontic Greeks looked to me to have longer, narrower faces and less pronounced facial bones.

2022.01.31.478487v1
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There could be some slavic input although as far as I know there was only one small Serbian village close to Adrianople before the exchange of populations in 1922.
 
Regional phenotypic variance among Greeks is overrated in the anthrofora. I know there're some notorious users who've been propagating the idea that mainland Greeks "look like Serbs" and island Greeks "look like Syrians" (whatever that's supposed to mean) but in reality there's a big overlap.
 
peloponnesian said:
Regional phenotypic variance among Greeks is overrated in the anthrofora. I know there're some notorious users who've been propagating the idea that mainland Greeks "look like Serbs" and island Greeks "look like Syrians" (whatever that's supposed to mean) but in reality there's a big overlap.
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I totally agree! As of right now, particularly in the large urban centers there has been a lot of intermarriage between the different geographic areas of Greece.
 
bigsnake49 said:

As far as my Y-DNA, Morley DNA assigns me to R1b L-23 whereas LivingDNA assigns me to M-269. Most autosomal companies assign me a mixture of 50-60% Greek and 40-50% East Balkan.
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R-M269 has a TMRCA of 6400 ybp and R-L23 a TMRCA of 6100 ybp. It's just that your DNA company hasn't been able to move downstream from that because they also use software "extractors" as well. Y-DNA mutates at an average short-tandem repeat locus per 25 years, so you need to test further to discover where you belong. If your folks were Arvanite Albanophones, there's a very good chance of you being downstream of Albanian Z2106 which, by the way, is downstream of L23.

If you post a screenshot of the morley results, we can hunt for a marker.

Now for your villages:

Both villages are late arrivals (17th-18th) of Arvanite Albanophones from Epirus and Albania, specifically from the area of Korytsa/Korce, in Eastern Thrace. They seem to have been entirely Albanophone up to the exchanges of 1922, where they were settled Western Thrace and Macedonia. Which means that if your genetics are indeed a thorough representation of Sultankoy and Ibriktepe, then you are very close to Arvanito-Vlachs from Korce. Following this train of thought, your Y-DNA could be a branch of L584, since there's two Vlachs on YFULL with such clades, one Albanian from Korce and one Romanian, with fairly recent TMRCAs.
 
Bekas said:
R-M269 has a TMRCA of 6400 ybp and R-L23 a TMRCA of 6100 ybp. It's just that your DNA company hasn't been able to move downstream from that because they also use software "extractors" as well. Y-DNA mutates at an average short-tandem repeat locus as 6.9×10-4 per 25 years, so you need to test further to discover where you belong. If your folks were Arvanite Albanophones, there's a very good chance of you being downstream of Albanian Z2106 which, by the way, is downstream of L23.

If you post a screenshot of the morley results, we can hunt for a marker.

Now for your villages:

Both villages are late arrivals (17th-18th) of Arvanite Albanophones from Epirus and Albania, specifically from the area of Korytsa/Korce, to Eastern Thrace. They seem to have been entirely Albanophone up to the exchanges of 1922, where they were settled Western Thrace and Macedonia. Which means that if your genetics are indeed a thorough representation of Sultankoy and Ibriktepe, then you are very close to Arvanito-Vlachs from Korce. Following this train of thought, your Y-DNA could be a branch of L584, since there's two Vlachs on YFULL with such clades, one Albanian from Korce and one Romanian, with fairly recent TMRCAs.
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No Arvanites in my family. My folks came from Dougantzi the Greek speaking village.

As far as the YDNA is concerned, both Morley and LivingDNA can go pretty far down the subclade tree (ISOGG-19?). I don't care that much to pay the additional money to do a deep dive.
 
peloponnesian said:
Regional phenotypic variance among Greeks is overrated in the anthrofora. I know there're some notorious users who've been propagating the idea that mainland Greeks "look like Serbs" and island Greeks "look like Syrians" (whatever that's supposed to mean) but in reality there's a big overlap.
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There are regional differences (that have persisted since ancient times) but people see what they *want* to see, not so much what's actually there. I used to get a kick out of the old "guess the ethnicity" posts on forums like this. Random Greeks often getting "classified" as some sort of western European (Iberian, French....) When the ethnicity is finally revealed, all of a sudden the Greek magically transforms into "East Med" or "Gorid" to the rest of the forum.
 
Constantine said:
I used to get a kick out of the old "guess the ethnicity" posts on forums like this. Random Greeks often getting "classified" as some sort of western European (Iberian, French....)
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Greeks don't overlap with French or Spanish, and why would/should they?
 
Constantine said:
There are regional differences (that have persisted since ancient times) but people see what they *want* to see, not so much what's actually there..
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Sometimes when people take a liking to me, I noticed they tend to say I look like one of them. :indifferent:
 
Constantine said:
There are regional differences (that have persisted since ancient times) but people see what they *want* to see, not so muych what's actually there. I used to get a kick out of the old "guess the ethnicity" posts on forums like this. Random Greeks often getting "classified" as some sort of western European (Iberian, French....) When the ethnicity is finally revealed, all of a sudden the Greek magically transforms into "East Med" or "Gorid" to the rest of the forum.
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You obviously don't know this forum. "Guess the Ethnicity" threads here have always been light hearted, un-judgemental fun. We don't do "anthropology classifications" here, much less ones using made up anthro-babble internet terms. Anyone who tries it will be apprised of that immediately.

I don't tolerate that sort of thing, nor the t-rolling of other ethnic groups, or calling "any" group by terms which are ethnic or racial slurs.

One of these "new" members got the news first hand yesterday. I'm quite happy to deal with any others who have the same sort of ideas.

In fact, if this thread degenerates into a "forum" for those kinds of arguments and disputes I'll just close it, so everybody is on notice.
 
Here is a lady that for me would be representative of the Pontic Greeks. They might not however all look like her:


Her name is Pela Nikolaidou.
 
She looks quite different from the "Pontic" Greeks in this video, much more broad faced and less gracile, but then I'm no expert on Greek regional differences.

 
She's definitely Pontian on both sides of the family with both sides being Pontian Greek musicians.
 
Now for me Yianni is the peak of good looking Southern Peloponnesian:

483ffac54efec069e20247dc37f49ae2.jpg
 
Indeed a beautiful man imo.

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I've also always loved the way Samaras looks; a modern day Antinous in some pictures.

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If someone told me he was a Southern Italian I wouldn't doubt it for a second.
South+Korea+v+Greece+Group+B+2010+FIFA+World+H-Aiz3BgzDUx.jpg


George Stephanopoulos has ancestry from eastern Thrace, I think.
george-stephanopoulos-arrives-to-abcs-good-morning-americas-30th-at-picture-id56010827


And Nia Vardalos from Achaea?
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I think Tina Fey and John Stamos are only half Greek, so may not count.
 
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