Austria's Y-haplo-groups.

[Templar]

I know that Austria is mostly R1b, but could someone please list specific clades of it, and whether or not they are of Celtic or Germanic origin. I am wondering if Austria is more Germanic or Celtic. The area was inhabited by Celts for thousands of years, and it was the location of the Hallstatt Celts (arguably one of the most highly-populated Celtic areas). But then after the Germanic invasions, modern-day Austrians obviously speak German.

I've also heard about how some parts of Austria have started wearing Kilts to signify pride in their supposed Celtic ancestors. They are even claiming that the Scottish Kilt's origins are from Austria.

[Maciamo]

Austria is one of the most under-tested countries in Europe for haplogroups. But based on the little data available, it seems that most of the R1b belongs to the Germanic S21 (U106) variety. By the way, R1b is not dominant at all in Austria. It is barely 25% of the male lineages.

[sparkey]

Austria is notoriously undersampled, so I don't feel like I have enough data offhand to separate Celtic vs. Germanic vs. other (Roman, Slavic, Hungarian, etc.) admixture. But I'd also be interested if anybody has more data than I do. Maybe someone can pull some figures out of something like YHRD?

I've also heard about how some parts of Austria have started wearing Kilts to signify pride in their supposed Celtic ancestors. They are even claiming that the Scottish Kilt's origins are from Austria.

The modern kilt is obviously a Scottish invention, dating to the 16th century at earliest. It was probably a sort of cross between a pleated Norse garment called a kjalta, and the older Celtic tradition of wearing a cloak and tunic, which often included designs.

I think Celtic reconstructionism is great, but the recent adoption of kilts as a "pan-Celtic" thing by the Irish, Welsh, Cornish, Bretons, Galicians, etc. is distinctly ahistoric.

[Templar]

Link about the supposed Austrian "kilts":

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1069623/posts

[Taranis]

I don't have much to add to what Maciamo and Sparkey said regarding the situation in Austria: we need more samples.

The modern kilt is obviously a Scottish invention, dating to the 16th century at earliest. It was probably a sort of cross between a pleated Norse garment called a kjalta, and the older Celtic tradition of wearing a cloak and tunic, which often included designs.

Amusingly though, what the ancient Celts did have tartan. The 1st century BC historian Diodorus of Sicily mentions that one of the most striking features about the Gauls were colorfully-patterned clothes. However, again, the convention of clan-specific tartan colors is a modern (ca. 17th/18th century) invention. Also, the ancient Celts wore pants (breeches) rather than kilts.

[zanipolo]

i wrote this down a while ago from a tyrolese site. they in majority are G2a3b1a2 or was it Ray Banks G project ?

Maybe its easier to search austrian regions for dna numbers than the nation

[MOESAN]

I know that Austria is mostly R1b, but could someone please list specific clades of it, and whether or not they are of Celtic or Germanic origin. I am wondering if Austria is more Germanic or Celtic. The area was inhabited by Celts for thousands of years, and it was the location of the Hallstatt Celts (arguably one of the most highly-populated Celtic areas). But then after the Germanic invasions, modern-day Austrians obviously speak German.

I've also heard about how some parts of Austria have started wearing Kilts to signify pride in their supposed Celtic ancestors. They are even claiming that the Scottish Kilt's origins are from Austria.

I don't know whom believe but H.HUBERT seamed considering the Eastern Hallstatt (Austria) group as a distinct one from the Western celtic one (S?. Germany Switzerland ...)ne material temporal culture, but possibly two different ethnies... Who knows what modern spécialists say?

[MOESAN]

I don't have much to add to what Maciamo and Sparkey said regarding the situation in Austria: we need more samples.



Amusingly though, what the ancient Celts did have tartan. The 1st century BC historian Diodorus of Sicily mentions that one of the most striking features about the Gauls were colorfully-patterned clothes. However, again, the convention of clan-specific tartan colors is a modern (ca. 17th/18th century) invention. Also, the ancient Celts wore pants (breeches) rather than kilts.

someones speake about an irish 'leine' that seams to be a sort of tunique ???

[Sile]

have found 2 sites on the tyrolese - although some internal links need a fee to open.

http://tigen.tirolensis.info/wiki/South_Tyrol_(Ötzi’s_homeland)_historical_migrat ions

http://tigen.tirolensis.info/wiki/Tyrolean_DNA_admixture_and_genetic_structure



it has also other links to bavarians, bosnians etc etc

[pipinnacanus]

The modern kilt is obviously a Scottish invention, dating to the 16th century at earliest. It was probably a sort of cross between a pleated Norse garment called a kjalta, and the older Celtic tradition of wearing a cloak and tunic, which often included designs.

I think you are vastly overstepping known facts to proclaim unsubstantiated opinions.

The Europid red-haired Tocharian burials in the western chinese desert are in multiple cases wearing the exact same tartan plaids woven in the same manner in the Talka Makan desert of China as is common later on in Scotland..
so I really dont see any basis for your claims at all. While particular clan-tartans or symbology may be later creations, the material and construction is quite old.

[sparkey]

I think you are vastly overstepping known facts to proclaim unsubstantiated opinions.

The Europid red-haired Tocharian burials in the western chinese desert are in multiple cases wearing the exact same tartan plaids woven in the same manner in the Talka Makan desert of China as is common later on in Scotland..
so I really dont see any basis for your claims at all. While particular clan-tartans or symbology may be later creations, the material and construction is quite old.

Not the kilt, no. You're equating kilts with tartans, which, as Taranis has pointed out, aren't to be equated.

[Templar]

By the way, R1b is not dominant at all in Austria. It is barely 25% of the male lineages.

That's surprising...

[Templar]

I was looking at the European Y-DNA halpgroups chart, and according to its data it says that Austria has more R1a than R1b. Is most of this R1a Slavic or a remnant of older migrations (such as most R1a in Scandinavia).

[ElHorsto]

By the way, R1b is not dominant at all in Austria. It is barely 25% of the male lineages.

That's surprising...

Yes, that's somewhat surprising. Still, in neighoring Bavaria we suddenly find approx. 50% R1b and 10% R1a. Historically, there is evidence that Bavarians are indeed mainly descendants of the celtic boii, while Austria did not exist as a nation until the middle ages. It was inhabited by various folks at that time (slavs, awars, raeti ...). Austria started only partially to exist as its western part became a colony of Bavaria first and later a colony of the Frankish empire. So the celtic history of Austria finished already long before Bavarian (re-)colonization. In addition it may be that during Frankish times not only Bavarian colonists settled in Austria, but also Germans. Maybe the increased I1 in eastern Austria is a trace of northern german colonists, given that the eastern part got colonized later mainly during frankish rule.

[Templar]

Yes, that's somewhat surprising

I find it surprising, because the Celtic Hallstatt culture was centered in Austria; specifically in the center of Austria. Maybe the Roman conquest of the region led to severe depopulation (such as it did in Gaul), which allowed for easier replacement of population/haplogroups by future Germanic migrants.

[Templar]

It is thought that Caesar killed and enslaved over half of Gaul's Celtic population during his military campaign there.

[Taranis]

It is thought that Caesar killed and enslaved over half of Gaul's Celtic population during his military campaign there.

Yes, this is correct. However, does this automatically mean that half of the modern population of France is descended from immigrants during the Roman period? I personally find that rather doubftul, even though I must say it's hard to estimate how large the scope of migration inside the Roman Empire was.

Also, Austria isn't in Gaul. My opinion is that much of the modern makeup of Austria probably stems from the Migration Period to a significant degree, with both Germanic/German and Slavic components to it.

Regarding the connection between Bavaria and the Boii, I think that is rather indirect. The Celtic Boii were conquered in the 1st century BC by the Germanic Marcomanni, but the region continued to be refered as "Boii Home"* even afterwards. In my opinion, the most likely origin of the Bavarians ("Bajuvari" - "Men of Bohemia") is whatever remained of the Marcomanni at the eve of the Migration Period.


*found in:
Strabo's Geography, book 7, chapter 1.3
Tacitus "Germania", chapter 28

[Templar]

Also, Austria isn't in Gaul. My opinion is that much of the modern makeup of Austria probably stems from the Migration Period to a significant degree, with both Germanic/German and Slavic components to it.

I agree, but what happened to the Celts?

[Vallicanus]

It is thought that Caesar killed and enslaved over half of Gaul's Celtic population during his military campaign there.

There are no reliable figures for this.

Saying one million were enslaved and a million killed in Gaul is just ancient rhetoric for "big numbers".

[Vallicanus]

It is thought that Caesar killed and enslaved over half of Gaul's Celtic population during his military campaign there.

The ancient Romans weren't Nazi bean-counters you know.

[Templar]

There are no reliable figures for this.

Saying one million were enslaved and a million killed in Gaul is just ancient rhetoric for "big numbers".

Just quoting the information that I've read (from good sources) :P

[MOESAN]

Just quoting the information that I've read (from good sources) :P

Julius Caesar as others liked magnifying the number or the opponents he vainquished - it would have been materially impossible to enslave so much people -

[Taranis]

Julius Caesar as others liked magnifying the number or the opponents he vainquished - it would have been materially impossible to enslave so much people -

While there's no consensus about the number of casualties in the war, there can be little doubt that a sizable faction of the pre-war population perished in the war. One of the main reasons is that both sides essentially deployed scorched-Earth tactics. Pre-Roman Gaul had a significant fraction of the population of medieval France (as much as third to half), so in my opinion casualties in the order of a million may be realistic.

EDIT:

Back on the topic of Austria, the pre-Roman inhabitants (the Celtic Norici) were absorbed into the Roman Empire by the late 1st century BC, and the population presumably was eventually latinized (like the Romansh in Switzerland).

It's pretty clear that some major demographic shifts must have happened in Noricum during the wake of the Migration Period, otherwise the Austrians today would be speaking some form of Romance language, and not a Germanic one (again, compare with the situation in Switzerland).

[zanipolo]

i think people are confusing the issue due to the fact that celtic is a lingiuistic terminology like slavic is. Its not a tribal/cultural terminology.
Why does everyone think the celtics are only R1b ?. Could they not also be R1a and I and J2 etc etc.

Lets take what we know of Austrian lands, - in the west Raeti , central and east was illyrian, venetic and gallic in the years of 600BC. what happened in around 550BC , the taurisci and the carni tribes ( gallic) invaded via switzerland , the taurisci settled in eastern austria ( noricum and where sometimes called Norici) and the carni went down the julian alps to split the venetic that where in italy and slovenia.
The carni became the friuli of Italy today ( a high % of R1a) and the Slovenians of the carnithia provinces ( again R1a) .

Who is to say that these Gallic Celtic tribes from Switzerland where not R1a. Who is not to say that the vindelici of southern germany where not R1a.

Romansch is a language associated with the Raeti, Ladin and Friuli - Was this also a gallic linguistic group?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friulan_language
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhaeto-Romance_languages

[mihaitzateo]

Please take into account the migration of serbs to Austria,which happened few hundreds of years ago (around the year 1700).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Serb_Migrations
Think this influenced also the Y DNA from Austria.