Old Europe (Vinca) language and culture in early layers of Serbian and Irish language

[dublin]

Let me continue

Who are the Irish?

There is something very interesting about the Irish language. You have a lot of words which are pronounced and sometimes even spelled the same, and which have completely different unrelated meanings. This shows that Irish is a composite language. No language, which is not composite, has that characteristic. You have a lot of that in English and everyone knows that this is because English is a composite language. I believe that the same is the case with Irish. Believe or not, I bought the biggest Irish English dictionary I could find, and I read it cover to cover (mad I know). And you have this over and over again. But what you also have is lots of old words which were Gaelicised. You can see this if you compare them with the old Irish versions. Time after time you see the same pattern, where the original word was changed to confirm with the Gaelic language structure. And the last thing that I noticed is that there are many base terms, which should really be defined with one word, but which have multiple words in Irish. Again this is the sign of a composite language.

This is completely in tune with the archaeological evidence, Irish historical records and genetic data.

I read a very good book recently called "The Origins of the Irish" by J. P. Mallory.

James Patrick Mallory is an Irish-American archaeologist and Indo-Europeanist. Mallory is an emeritus professor at Queen's University, Belfast, a member of the Royal Irish Academy and the editor of the Journal of Indo-European Studies and Emania: Bulletin of the Navan Research Group (Belfast).

What does he have to say about who today's Irish are?

Basically no one knows. But what we do know is that there was definitely significant influx from both western Mediterranean and from south Baltic…

There seemed to have been two Irelands:

First one was Ireland of P(F)omorians, Tuatha de Danaan, Fir bolg, Ango Saxons, Pruteni, Vikings which was influenced from south Baltic region.
Second one was the Ireland of Gaelic, Iverni, Milesians, Mil Espain, which was influenced from western Mediterranean region.

I don’t know who the original inhabitants of Ireland were, but I know that for at least last 4500 years, there has been continuous transfer of people, cultures and languages from these two centres into Ireland. Ireland was never one country and one culture, and it still isn’t. There is a drastic difference between south west (Mediterranean) and north east (South Baltic) influenced part of Ireland. There is a drastic difference in cultures in these two parts of Ireland, starting from two different types of megalithic structures which belong to either western Mediterranean or Central European Southern Baltic types.

The Iberians were according to the Irish chronicles the last to invade Ireland. They came and they burned and they destroyed and they plunged Ireland into a dark age. Do we have any evidence if this actually happen and when? We do. In "The Origins of the Irish" J. P. Mallory says that there is a sudden change in archaeological evidence which coincides with the beginning of the Iron Age in Ireland. It coincides with a massive depopulation of Ireland and switch from agriculture to flock herding. It also coincides with massive fortification and building of huge number of ring forts. So Gaels came and brought with them the Iron Age with all its beauties. It took Ireland couple of hundred years to recover.

The fact that the Gaels were at war with the Tuatha, Fomorians and the other central European people is evident from the Irish annals, which were by the way all written by the victors of this great struggle, the Gaels. In these histories the old people (Tuatha, Fomorians, Pruteni) were portrayed as enemies, evil, devious, magicians who should not be trusted, powerful but corrupt and bad. However the kings of Tuatha, Fomorians, Pruteni are credited with bringing all the arts and crafts to Ireland, and are frequently found imbedded in genealogies of the main Gaelic ruling families. Is this an attempt of the invaders to legitimise themselves by claiming relation to the powerful and famous rulers of old? Or was there a genuine intermarrying between these two peoples? Probably both.

The relationship between the Gaels and for instance the Tuatha is also evident from the Irish language:

Tuata - Layman
Tuath - people, tribe, laity
Tuath - lay, rural
Tuath - left, sinister, perverse, evil, malign
Tuathack - king, lord, chieftain
Tutahal - directed against the sun, wrong
Tuathalach - towards left, sinister, awkward, slovenly

Surely if Tuatha were Gaels, Tuath would not have such bad connotations in today's Gaelic Irish language?


The cultural merging of these two Irelands probably started quite early. Both communities were tribal, so there was no real sense of us against them. They formed and dissolved tribal alliances which fought each other and probably consisted of clans from both peoples. Maybe not. But by the fact that they lived side by side they must have communicated, traded, intermarried (stole each other’s wives) which all contributed to language mixing. The all-out war between these two sides only started with arrival of Christianity. They supported the south of Ireland, which turned out be mostly Gaelic, Milesian, Mil Espain side, and they eventually took over most of Ireland and forced their culture and language on everyone else apart from the eastern part of Ireland where thanks to continuous migration from south Baltic we have a continuation of this non Gaelic culture which morphed into Viking and later into Anglo Irish culture.

George Eogan is an Irish Archaeologist with particular interest in the Neolithic and Late Bronze Ages. A first degree at University College Dublin was followed by a doctoral thesis on Irish Late Bronze Age swords at Trinity College Dublin under Frank Mitchell. In the 1950's he worked with P.J. Hartnett on the Neolithic passage tomb at Fourknocks, and with Sean O Riordain at the Mound of the Hostages on the Hill of Tara. He was the Director of the Knowth Research Project and excavated at Knowth for more than 40 years as part of his investigation of the Passage Tomb builders in Ireland and Western Europe. Professor Eogan is a native of Nobber, Co. Meath in Ireland and has taught and lectured extensively on Irish archaeology.

Recently he gave this interview to the Irish Times newspaper, after spending his whole life studying the old kingdom of Brega and Bru na Boinne:

http://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/people/eoin-butler-s-q-a-1.1066834

Here is one excerpt:

How has the site weathered the past five millennia? Were subsequent inhabitants of the area respectful of it? Did they build over it?
That’s a very interesting question. In fact, between the seventh and 12th centuries AD, the mound at Knowth was the royal residence of the kings of Northern Brega, which occupied roughly the northern half of the modern county of Meath.
When you went down there in 1962, were you the first person to enter the tomb in 5,500 years or had previous generations pottered around in there?
The kings of Northern Brega transformed the site into a protected settlement by digging two ditches. When they were digging, they discovered the entrance to the passage. Some people went in and scratched their names on the stones.
What kind of names did people have in the seventh century?
They weren’t like our names today. One name was Snedta, who was a male individual, we think.
If he was carving his name all over the place, it was definitely a man.
Yes, most likely. The other was Teistennach. They would both have been members of the Northern Brega kingdom.

The point is, that we don’t know who the people were who lived in Brega kingdom in the period 7 - 12 century AD. We know they were different from today’s Irish and had strange names and probably even spoke a non-Gaelic language, but we just don’t know.

If potentially non-Gaelic people had their kingdoms in medieval Ireland, then it is almost certain that they did control even bigger portions of Ireland in more distant past. This is evident from another very good book which I read recently. The book is called “Iverni: A Prehistory of Cork”.

The book is written by Professor William O'Brien. Professor William O'Brien is a graduate of University College Cork where he completed doctoral research in 1987 on the subject of prehistoric copper mining. Prior to his appointment to the Cork chair in 2006, he lectured for 16 years in the Department of Archaeology, NUI Galway. His research interests include the Chalcolithic and Bronze Age in Ireland, early mining and metallurgy in Atlantic Europe, upland archaeology, the study of hillforts and all aspects of monumentality in the later prehistoric period. He has a particular interest in the prehistory of south-west Ireland, where he has conducted numerous research excavations. He has published widely on these topics, including books on his investigation of the Mount Gabriel mines, on wedge tomb landscapes, on his discovery of the Beaker copper mine at Ross Island, Co. Kerry, on early settlement landscapes and upland farming in the Beara Peninsula, and more recently the first general study of the prehistory of the Cork region.

In his book he concludes that there was a definite border and a division between the Ivernian civilization and the rest of Ireland. This border is marked by disappearance of west Mediterranean type megaliths and appearance of Central European type megaliths. In my opinion this pretty much corresponds to the division between the Gaelic and non-Gaelic Ireland. So what was the effect of this cultural division?

I believe that it is this cultural division of Ireland that leads to the situation where not all of the Irish language conforms to the Irish grammar. For instance Irish grammar says that when making compound words, you should always put adjectives after nouns. However there are lots of names in Ireland that do not confirm to that. Place names such as Dubh Linn ("black pool" = Dublin) and Leixlip ("salmon leap") were attributed to the Norse settlers who learned Irish had trouble with putting adjectives after nouns, so they often put them before the noun. This is exactly what happens when you force the new language on subjected population. They pick up the words but keep their own grammar. But this “non Gaelic Irish” language is present in all the old Irish texts, which shows that it predates the Norse, or more precisely the Dano-Slavs, as there were no Norse settlers in the Pale of Ireland only south Baltic ones. For instance Táin Bó Cúailnge, is filled with epithets like finnbennach "white-horned", dóeltenga "beetle-tongued", echbél "horse-lipped", rúadruca "red-blushing", and the like. I know that it wasn't written down until after the Vikings invaded but (a) the original core is thought to be much older and (b) there's precious little else in the work that could be ascribed to Norse influence. Moreover, we find this sort of composition in the earliest attestations of every Indo-European language, even if it later becomes obsolete. (Latin is an excellent example of this.) So I think you might be able to say that these sorts of compounds increased in areas of Norse influence (that's certainly the case in the North of France, for instance), but it's definitely an exaggeration to say that they originate with the Northmen. I however suspect that this could have something to do with the Central and North European influence which arrived to Ireland via south Baltic with of P(F)omorians, Tuatha de Danaan, Fir bolg, Ango Saxons, Pruteni, Vikings .

It seems that these south Baltic people have been living in Ireland and Scotland from at least 4th century AD (the earliest "Viking" type houses were dated from that period, and the latest finds on the crannog in ulster are pushing this to the 2nd century ad). The artefacts and houses are of distinct south Baltic type and not the Norse type. But this influx of central European culture is much older and dates to at least 2500 bc, if we judge by the amber beads discovered in north Cork. And even older if we judge it by the age of central European type stone age structure which first appeared in Central Europe, then in the Baltic and then in Ireland.

For instance, in Ireland you have names like RuaRi which uses word Rua for Red which is very close to Germano Slavic rud, rus and rua and not gaelic derg. In this name you also have adjective before the noun. This might be strange if you believe that all Irish were Gaels. But now that we know that they were not, it becomes something that you would expect to find.
Interestingly enough most toponymes and hydronymes of Celtic origin in central Europe have adjective before the noun. Here are some examples:

Gaelic word for “big” is Mór. (Pronounced as the English word more)
Gaelic word for “river” is Abhainn . (Pronounced “awon” similar to the English word award). Proto celtic word is awa.

In central Europe there are numerous rivers called Morava.

Morava = mor + ava = Mór Abhainn = Mor Awa= big river

Morava is the biggest river in Serbia and also in Czech republic. These rivers gave the name to the territory upper and lower Moravia .

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Morava
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morava_(river)

Today in eastern Serbia Vlasi (Vlahi) say “mare” for big. Celts called themselves “Valahi”…

In Ireland there is a river named The Avonmore River (Irish: Abhainn Mór, meaning "big river") which is the same as Mor Ava just using Gaelic grammar.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/River_Avonmore


Belgrade was in the distant past called Singi Dun. In Ireland most town names have word “dun” at the beginning like dun laoghaire.

All of this is very interesting, and forces us, I believe, to make a decision who is a Celt and who is a Gael. I believe from everything I have discovered so far that Gaels were not Celts and that Gaelic language is not a Celtic language. I believe that today’s Irish language has a lot of central European Celtic characteristics, but that they did not come from Gaelic, but from the languages of the Tuatha, Fomorians, Pruteni. This is why we have the same words and grammar in continental Europe, but only the words in Ireland.
So who are today the real carriers of Celtic language and Culture: Atlantic Bretons, Germanic and West Slavic nations of central Europe, or Gaelic people in Britain? I believe that it is a tossup…

 

[LeBrok]

Lebrock



Whole towns are currently being excavated in Serbia from Vinca period. According to archaeologists, they are built in the same way and are furnished in the same way as Serbian village houses from 1950s. My grand parents lived in one of those houses when i was a kid and used the same wooden and metal tools and furniture as are today found in vinca houses. The decorations on traditional clothing, ceramics, carpets, furniture are very similar, based on the same geometrical designs and sometimes identical. If you are interested in this you will need to contact people who are currently doing the excavations.
I have found the exact same religious artifacts in vinca and in pre-classical and classical Greece and for which Greeks claim that they do not originate in Greece....

.

One picture please. Is it too much to ask?

 

[dublin]

One picture please. Is it too much to ask?

Let me try with this:

Bucranium cult from vinca

In the Early Vinča phase Belo Brdo seems to have developed into a ritual centre for the entire region. The manufacture of various types of cult objects, including 'mushroom amulet' and 'animal head' jewellery made from semi-precious stones, first appeared there and then spread to other Vinča sites. The raw material for these objects often had to be imported from considerable distance, indicating also that from its earliest phase the site was part of large-scale exchange networks.^[9] It is therefore thought that Belo Brdo was a key place in a wider Vinča prestige economy, and an abundance of ritual paraphernalia, especially anthropomorphic figurines, is characteristic of the site. Another ritual innovation of Early Vinča phase Belo Brdo was the bucranium cult, where the painted skulls of cattle were fixed to the interior of houses. It is speculated that this practice may be linked to the wealth of individual households as measured in cattle.^[8] Later, however, Belo Brdo was to some degree eclipsed by the nearby site of Vršac, which became the centre of the much more widespread exchange of ornaments made from Spondylus shells.^[10] Subsequently in the Late Vinča phase figurines became less widely circulated, and at the same time more standardised in form (in contrast to the many idiosyncratic styles of the Early Vinča phase). They also began to be inscribed with Vinča symbols, which perhaps indicates that competition and conflict was arising between different groups within Belo Brdo trying to assert control over the flow of ritual goods.^[8]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vinča-Belo_Brdo

As previously mentioned, in Old Europe the bull's head and horns as well as rams were stronglyassociated with sanctuaries, temples and shrines. The same symbolism can be found in Anatolia,Minoan islands, and the near East. The bull and the ram where also initmately associated in ancientEgypt with the worship of sun deities. Old European cultures situated this image particularly abovesanctuary entrances, as well within megalithic tombs in the form of horns or hooks sculpted inrelief.

Reconstruction of a sanctuary with a gable roof in its simplest form at Vinča site Kormadin, Serbia, 5th millennium B.C.E. The entrance, as well central part of the sanctuary is dominated by the image of the bull(bucranium). (Ursulescu N. – 2006, p. 86)
In the symbolic language of Old Europe the horns are represented in the abstract with a crescent moon as well, as a U-sign indicating the bucranium. Artifacts associated with the cult of the bull were found at the Neolithic sites of Vučedol (Croatia), Vinča (Serbia), and Butmir (Bosnia) etc. It should therefore come as no surprise that the same religious imagery is often encountered on the stećak monolithic monuments.

Example of a stećak with a pointed top in Brotnice, Konavle region, Croatia. The frontal side of the monolithic monument is decorated with a deity bearing large rams' horns, rosette, and a crescent. The crescent, rosette, and various forms of horn symbolism appear very frequently in almost all geographic areas involved in the stećak phenomenon. In some cases, the crescent has been generally associated with Islam. However, this possibility can be taken into consideration only on Islamic-type stelae found on the Bosnian territory. But also in that case, it should be taken into consideration that the symbol of the star and crescent are a common feature of Sumerian iconography.

Altar (Tophet) representing symbols of the Carthaginian and Phoenician moon goddess Tanit, the consort of the sun god Ba'al.
The given evidence clearly demonstrates that there's a millennia-old inseparable relationship between Old European sanctuaries, stećaks and other similar monuments based on common architectural, artistic and religious concepts. In this context, additional evidence will be presented in order to provide a deeper, better, and richer understanding of the significance and importance of Old European culture and the stećak phenomenon.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bucranium

In Serbia bull is still a sacred animal and is used for sacrifices. There are helmets from medieval times found in graves in Serbia with bull horns.

Serbian Prince Lazar had his own coat of arms, which was carved into the outer wall of the church in Hilandar (a helmet with a bull’s horns and an iris as a decoration between horns).



This is just something i found in 5 minutes on the net.

 

[Nobody1]

at Dublin

I have absolutely nothing against your connection (Ireland-Serbia) theory.
The problem is that you cant connect and Indo-European people (Keltic / Urnfield 1300 BC - La Tene 450 BC) to a Pre-Indo-European culture (Vinca) that ceased to exist ~3500 BC.

There is absolutely no link between the Indo-European Kelts and the pre-Indo-European Vinca culture. as i quoted the sources on post#11.

as for Belo Bredo

Ian Shaw - A Dictionary of Archaeology (2002)
The tell comprised at least nine stratified layers of Vinca material, lying over an earlier layer of Starcevo material (later layers included evidence of Bronze Age Baden and later Iron Age La Tene occupations)

so the Indo-European rift came with the Baden culture; but it gets better:

John Chapman - Fragmentation in Archaeology (2000)
The only Bronze Age occupation was an intensive settlement episode by inhabitants in the Vatin network. This was a relatively rare occurrence, since Vatin tell occupation is poorly attested. The Vinca episode follows abandonment of the tell for some centuries, after which the tell is refocused in the domestic arena....The foundation of a hilltop settlement surrounded by a defensive ditch in the Late Iron Age is as yet poorly recorded (Celic 1984). While it may be argued that the military significance of a prominent hill such as Belo Brdo was the main reason for this Iron Age foundation, it should not be forgotten that many European Iron Age centres were located close to, if not directly on top of, previously significant places (for Celtic oppida, see Murray 1995; for British hillforts, see Sharples 1991).

What this clearly indicates is that not everything from Belo Brdo is Vinca (5300-3500BC) most also comes from the Indo-European Bronze age and after centuries of abandonment from the Indo-European (Keltic) Iron age LaTene.

Again, there is absolutely no link between the Indo-European Kelts and the pre-Indo-European Vinca culture [post#11].

 

[Yetos]

VARNA NECROPOLIS CULTURE

the Verna Necropolis culture is a significant culture which yet I did not know its gennetic connection, but all scientists agree that is Connected and expanded from mainland Greece to Rudna Glava Serbia and from dinaric alps to crimea and Kastamone.
Vinca culture as also pre IE Mycenean culture belong to the same family (group) that spread Pyramids and megalithic structures all over Eastern parts of Balkans,
still we know little about their gennetics and linguistic, cause (for me) they can be the primitive IE speakers, but they can also spoke a non IE language.

until today I am not that certain 100% if IE in balkans came from North or from East,
yet I admit that there was an arsenic bronze expansion (some call it IE) road that created 3 relative but different cultures in Balkans,
Cotofeni, Vatin, Vucocar, and from them born the cultures we know later.
these last 3 are consider IE and can be connected or not with Irish IE in a possible IE theory, but not Vinca as Vinca culture,

from the above 3 the most interesting is Vucocar culture, can we consider it as component of La Tenne? can we connected with later Italic expand of IE?, if yes then Vucocar can travel west even to Ireland, if not Vucocar died inside Vatin culture.

 

[dublin]

to nobody

I have absolutely nothing against your connection (Ireland-Serbia) theory.

great.

What this clearly indicates is that not everything from Belo Brdo is Vinca (5300-3500BC) most also comes from the Indo-European Bronze age and after centuries of abandonment from the Indo-European (Keltic) Iron age LaTene.

I never claimed this. I do claim that there was a continuation as well as succession going on. As i said already just because my son has a Serbian father, this doesn't mean he is not Irish as well, as his mother is Irish. Women and cattle were what the "Indo Europeans" always kept, after destroying everything else and killing the men. Women bring up kids, and thus pass on the culture and the language. In "The Origins of the Irish", J. P. Mallory talks about these bands of priests, smiths and warriors which roamed the world in the early copper and bronze age, looking for new lands to take. No women were part of those invasions, they were taken from the conquered people. This is one custom that survived all the way to today through the custom of wife kidnapping and so called "wolf weddings" in the Balkans...

Also there is no way that without cultural continuity we would have both copper, bronze and iron being invented and first industrially produced in the exactly the same spot, in today's Serbia, in the old Vinca land. Metallurgy is such a complex craft that it requires in dept knowledge of many related skills and sciences. For this to be passed on without written teaching material, you need long term tutoring. For this you need continuity. I accept as a possibility that maybe one of early Vinca colonies in the north east have formed the "Indo Europens" (what ever this is, because it is still just a term hotly debated and disputed). I did say that what i found points to them being organized into tribes, wolf packs, knightly orders, fiana, what ever you want to call it. So they went out and formed new tribes. I can accept that one of those tribes then came back to old Vinca land, conquered it and continued where Vinca stopped. But this is still continuity.

If you have any explanation for Vinca teritory being the center of metallurgy for 5000 years except continuity i would like to hear about it.

Again, there is absolutely no link between the Indo-European Kelts and the pre-Indo-European Vinca culture [post#11].

That you know of. This is why i am publishing all this because i believe that i have found that link. So please wait until i present what i have (i can only translate so much so fast) and then maybe you will be as convinced as i am. Or maybe not.

 

[dublin]

Yetos thanks for joining. I need someone from your part of the world cause i have sooooo much stuff about Old Greece and how it is connected to the Vinca culture and post Vinca Balkan iron cultures. For now i have a question for you. A lot of what i found points to significance of Thessaly as being the link between the north and Greece and particularly to the Volos gulf region in Greece. Do you know what is the oldest written name for that bay or town. I have my suspicion that it could have been IOLCOS or UOLCOS or OLCOS? It all has to do with the wolf culture of Europe which is what i discovered first and which eventually lead me to Vinca. If you follow the wolf it will lead you straight to Vinca...

Volos (Greek: Βόλος) is a coastal port city in Thessaly...

According to a Byzantine historian of the 14th century, Volos was known as "Golos" (Greek: "Γόλος"). The most widely accepted theory for the derivation of the city's name suggests that Volos is a corruption of the MycenaeanIolkos, which had become distorted through the ages to become "Golkos", later "Golos", and subsequently "Volos". Others contend that the name originates with Folos, who according to myth was a wealthy landlord of the region. It was conquered by Stefan Dusan, was king of Serbia in 1348 and was managed for 25 years. Volos returned to Byzantine rule in 1373 but was conquered by Ottomans in 1393. Volos returned to Byzantine again in 1402 but Ottomans retook it in 1423.^{[citation needed]}

Iolcos (also known as Iolkos or Iolcus, Greek: Ιωλκός) is an ancient city

It is funny you mention Vukovar culture. It is one of those cultures which is linked to the whole wolf culture thingy. Some even say that Volcae are descendants and got their name after Vucedol culture. This culture is also connected with Danube, which is also the central life line of Vinca culture. We can almost talk about Danube basin cultures starting from Lepenski Vir all the way to today...

 

[dublin]

While we are here in the vicinity of Belgrade or Singi Dun, i will here repeat what i wrote on another thread here few years ago. At that time i only had a "strong feeling" that there is a link between the Irish and the Serbs.

Irish expression “tar aish” or “tareis” means “after” or “beyond” as in these two sentences:


Ta se deich noimead tar eis a naoi
PRONOUNCED: Taw shay deh no/made tar aish a knee
MEANING: It is ten minutes after nine

Slainte go saol agat,
Bean ar do mhian agat.
Leanbh gach blian agat,
is solas na bhflaitheas tareis antsail seo agat.

roughly pronounced:
Slancha ga sheil agat
Ban ir da vian agat
Toluv gan kis agat
Lanov gach blean agat
Iss solas na vlahas taraish antail sha agat.

"Health for life to you,
A wife of your choice to you,
Land without rent to you,
A child every year to you,
And the light of heaven after this world for you."

Near Belgrade there are two villages, Železnik and Vranic, which both have parts called “taraiš” pronounced “taraish” situated after or beyond the village boundaries. These villages are long and narrow situated on top of wavy hills. Zeleznik in Serbian means “iron town” or “iron place” or “iron works” or “smelting plant”. In medieval chronicles the place is described as once being the major iron and silver processing center. Roman sarcophagus belonging to a Decurion from second century was found near the village. This means that Zeleznik was important enough to have a military garrison stationed in it, probably because it was still an metallurgical center in Roman time. Between Zeleznik and Vranic, on another hill which runs parallel to the other two is a village of Sremcica where the iron ore was mined. Old iron mines were discovered there in the middle of the 20th century...


So next to Singi Dun (20 km) there is an important Iron production area, where people call the area beyond the village land taraish -Tar Eis (beyond), and call the village boundary taraba which could be from "tar abhaile" which means to arrive home and here is what those people call their homes:

Kuća - Kutja = house

This word has no etymology in Slavic languages. There is a proposed etymology stemming from word "Kut" which means angle. In Serbian there is a word Kutija which mean angular container, so Kutja could be angular house. And i agree that the first part of the word kutja comes from kut. But i believe that the ending tja comes from Irish word for a house "teach" pronounced "tjak". So kutja becomes kut tjak - angular rectangular house, as opposed to oval house. Is there any evidence that a word "tjak" or "tja" was or is used in the Balkans for a house? There is. In Dalmatia they still say "idem ća" - "idem tja" = i am going home, i am going away. In Serbian there is a word "čatrlja" which means small house made of daub and wattle.
What is also interesting is that in Serbian a word "dom", which is a word for home also has an interesting etymology. In Serbian it can be broken like this:

dom = do + m = do + me = do + mene = to me, what belongs to me, what is with me, next to me = my things = home.

Let's have a look at Irish:

diom (dom)= to, at
mo = me
diom + mo = diommo = diomo = to me, at me, what belongs to me, what surrounds me

I don't believe that this just a coincidence, because it goes on and on and on like this....More to come

ps: Here is a very interesting investigation into original round houses. They look so much like old beehives my grand father used to have...Same principal building technique.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056782155

 

[dublin]

Hi guys

This is my last post for next ten days. I am away to the land of Serbs and will have no internet access (thank god).

The “Garmans” are coming

Once upon a time, the whole of north-western Europe was crisscrossed with a complex network of wooden roads. These roads were needed in order to cross the boggy and soggy lands of northern Europe, and became a necessity when wheeled carts were invented and introduced into the north of Europe.

The first routes in Ireland were prehistoric trackways, some of which were later developed into roads suited for wheeled vehicles. Many of Ireland's minor roads “may well have had their origin in pre-existing paths and trackways aligned in direct response to the physical environment.” Traces of these evolved roads which developed over very long periods, frequently from tracks of the prehistoric period, are still evident. The routes of such roads usually followed the natural landscape, following the tops of ridges and crossing rivers and streams at fording points.[1]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_roads_in_Ireland

There is almost no evidence that large roads were constructed in Ireland during the Stone Age. However, a very large oval henge enclosure, thought to date from c. 2500 BC (the Neolithic period) may possibly have had an ancient roadway associated with it. The henge was discovered at the Hill of Tara archaeological complex in geophysical surveys carried out between 1999 and 2001. It is unlikely that any roadway from this period would have been used as a transport route.[2][3] Excavations carried out at Edercloon, Co. Longford in advance of road construction discovered a dense "network of wooden trackways and platforms, which were constructed from the Neolithic (c. 4000-c. 2200BC) to the early medieval period (c. AD 400-790)."[4]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_roads_in_Ireland

So the earliest wooden track way in Ireland was discovered next to a henge in Brega area, near Tabor breg. Henge is a central European type megalithic structure. They originate in central Europe in the same area which later became the Celtic heartland.

Prague - Czech archaeologists have uncovered four prehistoric rondel enclosures, two of which are the largest in Europe, within an unprecedented extensive research accompanying the construction of a motorway bypass of Kolin, central Bohemia, chief researcher Radka Sumberova told CTK today.

After examining 40 hectares on land, the experts gathered hundreds of thousands of finds. The most important ones include the four rondel enclosures. The enclosures, of a circle or oval shape and usually of 50 to 200 metres in diameter, appeared in Europe in the Neolithic period. Their inner space was not inhabited. Experts believe they might have served for cult, military or trade purposes. Over 100 rondel enclosures have been uncovered in Europe to date, including several in the Czech Republic.

Two of the enclosures that archaeologists have uncovered near Kolin are 214 and 230 meters in diameter. The former was surrounded by four ditches, the biggest being 4.5m deep and 14m long, Sumberova said. The other two enclosures uncovered within the Kolin research in the past two years are 80 and 75 meters in diameter.

Besides Neolithic finds, the experts uncovered a number of valuable remains of settlements from the Paleolithic period, from the Bronze and Iron Ages, from the Roman era and the early Middle Ages, Sumberova said.

Experts will further examine all finds.

http://www.accessmylibrary.com/article-1G1-211709704/czech-archaeologists-uncover-europe.html

What are rondel enclosures?

A number of approximately 120–150 Neolithic earthworks enclosures are known in Central Europe. They are called Kreisgrabenanlagen("circular ditched enclosures") in German, or alternatively as roundels (or "rondels"; German Rondelle; sometimes also "rondeloid", since many are not even approximately circular). They are mostly confined to the Elbe and Danube basins, in modern-day Germany,Austria, Czech Republic, Slovakia, as well as the adjecent parts of Hungary and Poland, in a stretch of Central European land some 800 km (500 mi) across.^[2] They date to the first half of the 5th millennium BC; they are associated with the late Linear Pottery culture and its local successors, the Stroke-ornamented ware (Middle Danubian) and Lengyel (Moravian Painted Ware) cultures. The best known and oldest of these Circular Enclosures is the Goseck circle, constructed c. 4900 BC.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rondel_enclosure

So these henges, rondel enclosures originate in central Europe, in middle Danube area (Danube again) and Morava area (Morava again). They are a lot more common in Central Europe and predate the henges found in the British Isles. This means that the culture that built these megaliths came from Central Europe via Baltic to British Isles.

Here is an example of one of those Central European henges:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goseck_circle

Here is a link to the page about English henges:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henge

And here is an example from Ireland:

http://www.knowth.com/woodhenge.htm

These megalithic structures are linked to Stroke-ornamented ware (Middle Danubian) culture. This culture is a continuation of the Linear pottery culture.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stroke-ornamented_ware_culture
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linear_Pottery_culture

This Linear pottery culture is through a particular type of bread ovens and houses directly linked to the West Slavic cultures of central Europe of the medieval time:

These so called bread ovens are known from a number of sites in central Europe that are dated from the 7th-12th centuries (Skružny 1963, 1980 ; Vignatiová 1992). A find of this type is usually represented by a hole sunk into a loess soil with the highest vaulting of 40-60 cm, red-burnt walls of 5-10 cm and a grey-burnt bottom, sometimes stone-lined.

3The bottom ground plan is usually of renal, semi-circular up to round shape, east-west oriented.

4From later periods (13 th century) it is documented that slightly modified ovens with an underground heating duct can serve for food-smoking (Skružny 1980). Archaeological finds of bread ovens are usually excavated on the margin of a settled area outside of the houses (Skružny, Vignatiová 1992, p. 90) or they are sunk into the wall of a dwelling (e.g. Breclav-Pohansko : Vignatiová 1992, fig. 3). The ovens outside the dwellings and the site area are known from Neolithic sites in Slovakia : in Pác near Trnava (Kolník 1977) or in Horné Lefantovce (Bánesz 1962). These finds were recently enriched by a new exceptional site where ovens from 11 th-12 th century were excavated in the vicinity (ca. 150 m) of the similar ones from the Late Stone Age (6 th millenium B.C.) belonging to the Linear-Pottery culture people. These ovens were revealed in Borovce, distr. of Piest’any, Slovakia, and the finds have not been published yet. The particular situation of Borovce has offered a chance to compare these finds, similar in types but different in history as well as in culture.

http://civilisations.revues.org/1799

This again shows cultural continuity in central Europe from the earliest pre Indo European times to today.

Now that we know who invented henges and wooden track ways, let’s get back to the wooden roads:

Wheeled vehicles with solid wooden disc-wheels were introduced into northern Europe around 2000 BC. An example of a disc-wheel, from the Netherlands, was found next to a wooden trackway: "it appears from this evidence that the introduction of disc-wheeled carts into…northern Europe required the invention of roadbuilding about 2000 B.C."[5] An Early Bronze Age trackway, from shortly after 2000 BC, was found at Ballykillen Bog, near Edenderry, Co. Offaly in the 19th century. It may have been designed to carry disc-wheeled vehicles.[5] A one kilometre (0.6 mile) section of a wooden trackway, three feet (approx. 1 metre) wide, was surveyed at Corlona Bog inCo. Leitrim in the 1950s. The trackway was dated to approximately 1500 BC but its narrow width makes it unlikely that it was used by wheeled vehicles.[5] Similar wooden trackways and roads are known from all over Ireland from the Late Bronze Age. One example from Ballyalbanagh, Co. Antrim was seven feet (2 metres) wide and made from oak beams and planks: "its width suggests provision for cart or wagon transport."[5]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_roads_in_Ireland
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corlea_Trackway
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timber_trackway

The best examples of these track ways in Europe are in the south Baltic and in east Ireland. The way they were constructed is so different and superior to the rest of the roads found, that archaeologists have long “suspected” that they could have only been built by the same people. But because history says that there has been no migration from south Baltic to Ireland at the time these roads were built, the possibility that they might have been built by the same people was discarded.

Now if we disregard the official history (again), we can plainly see that these roads were built in Ireland by the immigrants from south Baltic. Not just by the fact that they used the same technique to build them, but by the fact that both were built in the area populated by the people with the same name: Cauci (Chauci). Who are these Cauci (Chauci)?

The Cauci (Καῦκοι) were a people of early Ireland, uniquely documented in Ptolemy's 2nd-century Geography, which locates them roughly in the region of modern County Dublin and County Wicklow.^[1]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cauci

The Chauci (German: Chauken, and identical or similar in other regional modern languages) were an ancient Germanic tribe living in the low-lying region between the Rivers Ems and Elbe, on both sides of the Weser and ranging as far inland as the upper Weser. Along the coast they lived on artificial hills called terpen, built high enough to remain dry during the highest tide. A dense population of Chauci lived further inland, and they are presumed to have lived in a manner similar to the lives of the other Germanic peoples of the region.
Their ultimate origins are not well understood. In the Germanic pre-Migration Period (i.e., before c. 300 AD) the Chauci and the relatedFrisians, Saxons, and Angles inhabited the Continental European coast from the Zuyder Zee to south Jutland.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chauci

So this is why we can’t have these road builder with the same name be the same people. Because that would mean that Germanic tribes inhabited East Ireland in the 2. Century. What would that do to the story of “Celtic Ireland”?
But that is surely a coincidence. Maybe they just have similar names and are completely different people? Let’s see how far we can stretch this coincidence:

If you look at Ptolemy’s map of Ireland, you see that south from Cauci, you find these tribes: Menapii, Coriodni, Brigantes, Vodiae.

Do we find Menapii anywhere else? We do, right next and below the Chauci in the Rhine region.

The Menapii were a Belgic tribe of northern Gaul in pre-Roman and Roman times. Their territory according to Strabo,Caesar and Ptolemy stretched from the mouth of the Rhine in the north, and southwards along the west of the Schelde.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Menapii

Now interestingly enough they are a “belgic” tribe. So we have a Belbic and Germanic people living in two places next to each other. This opens a big question (again as I am not the first to open it) :
Was there a difference between Belgic (Celtic) tribes and Germanic tribes, or are the Germans just Celts that Romans did not conquer?
In Ireland, just under the Manapii tribe you find Coriondi, who we also find in England and according to names study probably in Gaul as well, and I say probably next to Menapii.

The Coriondi (Κοριονδοί) were a people of early Ireland, referred to in Ptolemy's 2nd century Geography as living in southern Leinster.^[1]MacNeill identifies a later Irish group, the Coraind, in the Boyne valley, who may be the same people.^[2] Other possibly related names include the Corcu Cuirnd,^[2] Cuirennrige and Dál Cuirind in early medieval Ireland, and in Britain, the Corionototae, known from an inscription inHexham, Northumberland, and Corinion, the Brythonic name for Cirencester, Gloucestershire.^[1] The element *corio- also occurs in Gaulish personal and tribal names, usually taken to mean an army or troop of warriors ^[3]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coriondi

Under Coriondi we find Brigantes, who are also found in England, and in the Alps.

The Brigantes were a Celtic tribe who in pre-Roman times controlled the largest section of what would become Northern England, and a significant part of the Midlands. Their kingdom is sometimes called Brigantia, and it was centred in what was later known as Yorkshire. Ptolemy lists the Brigantes also as a tribe in Ireland, where they could be found around Wexford,Kilkenny and Waterford^[1] while another probably Celtic tribe named Brigantii is mentioned by Strabo as a sub-tribe of theVindelici in the region of the Alps.^[2]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brigantes

Ander Brigantes we find Vodiae or Vodii or Udiae:

http://books.google.ie/books?id=YQQ...oB4&ved=0CD0Q6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=Vodii&f=false

What we see is that we have the same Celto-Belgo-Germanic people settling one next to the other in:
1. South Baltic area, the same areas from which Ango-Saxons, and later Dano-Slavic Vikings, would later invade England.
2. North England, the same area that Ango-Saxons, and later Dano-Slavic Vikings, would later invade and settle in England
3. East Ireland, the same area Dano-Slavic Vikings, would later invade and settle in Ireland.

But there are not supposed to have been any Germanic or Ango-Saxon tribes in Ireland. Yet the territory of county Wexford, settled by Menapii is in Gaelic called: “Loch Garman”.

Here is what the Irish have to say about the name Loch Garman.

Wexford lies on the south side of Wexford Harbour, the estuary of the River Slaney. According to a local legend, the town got its Irish name, Loch Garman, from a young man named Garman Garbh who was drowned on the mudflats at the mouth of the River Slaney by flood waters released by an enchantress. The resulting loch or lough was thus named, Loch Garman.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wexford

However it is a lot more plausible that the Gaels called the teritory by the name of its inhabitants, the Lock of Garmans (Germans). 19th century English historians thought so.

Ptolemy calls Wexford town by its real name Menppia, the town of Menpii.

Quite interesting are the Vodii as well. In modern Gaelic Irish the word for water is “uisce” pronounced “ishka”. However I believe that once there was another word for water, which has central European origin: “bwo” or “bwa” or “bwoa”. This word is the route of the word for water (English), wasser (Serman), and (Voda) Slavic. I believe that it is hidden in the following word:

bá (bvao) – Bay, great expense of water, flooding, drowning, immersion, quenching of thirst

The area inhabited by the Vodii, whose name in Serbian would mean water people, is today called Waterford.

There is also in Irish annals a story about an Irish prince of Leinster was exiled to Continental Europe and, befriending the foreign king, he returned with an army of "long spears" which, in Gaelic, was at the origin of the province name of Leinster.

Early Irish historical traditions credited the founding of the Laigin to the legendary High King Labraid Loingsech. His grandfather,Lóegaire Lorc, had been overthrown by his own brother, Cobthach Cóel Breg, and Labraid forced into exile. After a period of military service on the continent, Labraid returned to Ireland at the head of an army, known as Laigin after the broad blue-grey iron spearheads (láigne) they carried. The Lebor Gabála Érenn dates Labraid's accession to 300 BC.^[3][4][5] Modern historians suggest, on the basis of these traditions and related placenames, that the Laigin were a group of invaders from Gaul or Britain, who arrived no later than the 6th century BC, and were later incorporated into the medieval genealogical scheme which made all the ruling groups of early Ireland descend from Míl Espáine. Placenames also suggest they once had a presence in north Munster and in Connacht.^[6]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laigin

Now what is the name for a spear in in old Germanic languages? The word for spear in Germanic languages is “gar”. Which would mean that Garman is a Gar man which means a Spear man. So back to Lock Garman again, and this time in the country of the spear men we have a town of the spear men.

gar: From Middle English gar, gare, gere, gore, from Old English gār (“spear, dart, javelin, shaft, arrow, weapon, arms”), from Proto-Germanic *gaizaz (“spear, pike, javelin”), from Proto-Indo-European *ǵʰayso- (“pointed stick, spear”), from Proto-Indo-European *ǵʰey- (“to drive, move, fling”). Cognate with West Frisian gear, Dutch geer (“pointed weapon, spear”), German Ger (“spear”), Norwegian geir (“spear”), Icelandic geir (“spear”). Related to gore.
Old Irish has gae "spear"

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/gar

Which leads me to an inevitable question: Does German actually just mean a Spearman? And are Germanic tribes just tribes of people armed with Gars, Spears???

But we have completely forgotten the wooden roads.

According to an entry in the Annals of the Four Masters for AD 123, there were five principal highways (Irish: slighe) leading to Tara (Irish: Teamhair) in Early Medieval Ireland. The entry in the Annals claims that these routes were 'discovered' at the birth of Conn of the Hundred Battles:
The night of Conn's birth were discovered five principal roads leading to Teamhair, which were never observed till then. These are their names: Slighe Asail, Slighe Midhluachra, Slighe Cualann, Slighe Mhór, Slighe Dala. Slighe Mhór is that called Eiscir Riada, i.e. the division line of Ireland into two parts, between Conn and Eoghan Mór.[9]
In reality, "the ancient road system (such as it was - there cannot have been a developed national system) fanned out not from Tara but from Dublin.".[7]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_roads_in_Ireland

So the system of wooden roads was leading from and to Dublin, the centre of the Spear people land and also the centre of Cauci land.

Wheeled vehicles with solid wooden disc-wheels were introduced into northern Europe around 2000 BC. An example of a disc-wheel, from the Netherlands, was found next to a wooden trackway: "it appears from this evidence that the introduction of disc-wheeled carts into…northern Europe required the invention of roadbuilding about 2000 B.C."[5] An Early Bronze Age trackway, from shortly after 2000 BC, was found at Ballykillen Bog, near Edenderry, Co. Offaly in the 19th century. It may have been designed to carry disc-wheeled vehicles.[5]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_roads_in_Ireland

So these wooden roads are specifically built for disc wheeled cart traffic.

In Ireland these roads are called “An Tochar" pronounce “tokar”. There is a village in the Wicklow mountains called Roundwood. Its Irish name is Tochar.

http://visitwicklow.ie/towns-villages/roundwood/

In Serbian there is a word “toka”, which means something disk like. There is also a verb “tokariti”, which means working material by spinning it and applying force from the side, which produces round, disc objects, like round wooden beams used for making disk cart wheels for which “tochar” roads were made. Was the name for these disc wheels “toka”? And does “tochar” mean a road for disc wheeled carts?

 

[MOESAN]

Let me continue

Who are the Irish?

There is something very interesting about the Irish language. You have a lot of words which are pronounced and sometimes even spelled the same, and which have completely different unrelated meanings. This shows that Irish is a composite language. No language, which is not composite, has that characteristic. You have a lot of that in English and everyone knows that this is because English is a composite language. I believe that the same is the case with Irish. Believe or not, I bought the biggest Irish English dictionary I could find, and I read it cover to cover (mad I know). And you have this over and over again. But what you also have is lots of old words which were Gaelicised. You can see this if you compare them with the old Irish versions. Time after time you see the same pattern, where the original word was changed to confirm with the Gaelic language structure. And the last thing that I noticed is that there are many base terms, which should really be defined with one word, but which have multiple words in Irish. Again this is the sign of a composite language.

This is completely in tune with the archaeological evidence, Irish historical records and genetic data.

I read a very good book recently called "The Origins of the Irish" by J. P. Mallory.

James Patrick Mallory is an Irish-American archaeologist and Indo-Europeanist. Mallory is an emeritus professor at Queen's University, Belfast, a member of the Royal Irish Academy and the editor of the Journal of Indo-European Studies and Emania: Bulletin of the Navan Research Group (Belfast).

What does he have to say about who today's Irish are?

Basically no one knows. But what we do know is that there was definitely significant influx from both western Mediterranean and from south Baltic…

There seemed to have been two Irelands:

First one was Ireland of P(F)omorians, Tuatha de Danaan, Fir bolg, Ango Saxons, Pruteni, Vikings which was influenced from south Baltic region.
Second one was the Ireland of Gaelic, Iverni, Milesians, Mil Espain, which was influenced from western Mediterranean region.

Dublin, I already "fought" against you in other older thread -
your linguistic connexions between irish and serbian are for the most I-E cognates
others answered you too about all that -
you have a very big imagination, and in some way do a hard work to build some theories, and it 's true, your are holding on to it
but even if the 'heterogenous lexic' of a language could be taken as a proof of a sort of 'melting pot' language, you cannot affirm things like different words and meaning having the same or almost the same pronounciation are the proof of a mixed origines language: look ar french:
'chant' >< 'chant' >< 'champ' = "song", "thin side of a thing, book ...", "field" - all french words from latine
- french is rich of same pronounciation words of different meanings, BUT coming from the same stratum (layer):
I agree with you that gaelic has for verbs a big number of diverse roots to express time, mode or things like that: I'm yet trying to find a logical explanation for it (without any result for now, I confess) - what I remarked is that celtic (of today so maybe a pre-celtic resurgence?) languages don't like the verbs conjugaisons and try very often to use periphrasic solutions: BUT IS THAT AN EVIDENT LINK WITH SERBIAN LANGUAGE, ANCIENT OR NEW??? I don't think!
your 'Serbian connexion' in Middle East seems to me very similar to 'albanian connexions' we red before -
and please, be careful when doing wild etymologies wich look as acrobatic loopings - you have the merit of try, but you keep only the elements which confirm your theory and kick away the ones which contradict it, in my opinion -
that said, trying to find under the dominent culture traces of previous so called "faded" cultures is not stupid
so I propose: give me a lists of irish and serbians related words and some precise cultural remnants common to both -
No offense, your serbian words will contribute to the richness of my knowledge - just now I'm comparing Croate and other slavic languages with more known occidental I-E languages, purchasing cognates, for the pleasure - maybe some cognates could be non-I-E? (uneasy to prove)

 

[dublin]

Dublin, I already "fought" against you in other older thread

Stop fighting then. You are disagreeing with me as a person and not with what i have presented here and that is not nice
Take something that i have presented and that i will present, and show me the problem with what i presented.
I am translating my documentation and i really don't have time to waste on this kind of bickering...

I agree with you that gaelic has for verbs a big number of diverse roots to express time, mode or things like that: I'm yet trying to find a logical explanation for it (without any result for now, I confess) - what I remarked is that celtic (of today so maybe a pre-celtic resurgence?) languages don't like the verbs conjugaisons and try very often to use periphrasic solutions: BUT IS THAT AN EVIDENT LINK WITH SERBIAN LANGUAGE, ANCIENT OR NEW??? I don't think!

I didn't say that it was. I just said that it is a sign of a composite language. I did find that one of these linguistic layers is overlapping with serbian to a degree which shows that there existed a long term coexistence of ancestors of Irish and Serbs. The same overlap does not exist with for instance other European languages. Wait until i present the finds and then take it to pieces if you can. I am counting on it and this is why i am presenting this here. I want to validate what i think i have found.

so I propose: give me a lists of irish and serbians related words and some precise cultural remnants common to both -

As i said you will just have to wait. There will be a few in every post, and i am doing so to be able to link them to the historical, religious, ethnological and archaeological data so that the link becomes more evident.

 

[nordicwarrior]

...Now that we know who invented henges...

Not quite enough proof to make a statement like this, however I find your word associations fascinating.

At one point I also had "German" coming from spear-man also. I now have it meaning "brother man" or man from the land of equals. I must say I'm undecided again.

Another nitpick (sorry)-- I'm not crazy about your using the name "Dano-Slavic Viking". This doesn't jive with what we know about these tribes.

But overall this is a great post. Well researched with much effort spent. Really makes one think...

 

[Yetos]

Yetos thanks for joining. I need someone from your part of the world cause i have sooooo much stuff about Old Greece and how it is connected to the Vinca culture and post Vinca Balkan iron cultures. For now i have a question for you. A lot of what i found points to significance of Thessaly as being the link between the north and Greece and particularly to the Volos gulf region in Greece. Do you know what is the oldest written name for that bay or town. I have my suspicion that it could have been IOLCOS or UOLCOS or OLCOS? It all has to do with the wolf culture of Europe which is what i discovered first and which eventually lead me to Vinca. If you follow the wolf it will lead you straight to Vinca...

It is funny you mention Vukovar culture. It is one of those cultures which is linked to the whole wolf culture thingy. Some even say that Volcae are descendants and got their name after Vucedol culture. This culture is also connected with Danube, which is also the central life line of Vinca culture. We can almost talk about Danube basin cultures starting from Lepenski Vir all the way to today...

hmm by what i know Volos (Βολος) means bull.

about 'wolf' from what o know ancient world described 2,
the Dacians
the Lycaonians

both share a kind of draco, a sacred religious knife that the 'heads' had.

Vucocar Vatin are important if we support theory that IE were tottaly from North of Black sea, and had nothing to do with minor asia,
Vucocar and Vatin are considered as Mycenean culture birth in that theory,
but strangely around Mycenae we also found some compatible architecture of megalithic structures,
I believe that Vinca megalithic structures, Varna necropolis and many ritual in ancient Greek world are connected to a previous culture, all done by same people, and later came the arsenic bronze raiders, which create using the old infrastucture the Cotofeni the Vatin and the vucocar,

I had gave some evidences of that in previous posts,
Yet always something does not fit,

 

[dublin]

Yetos, thank you very much for your help. It is a great help.

Nordicwarbler, I use Dano Slavic federation deliberately. I have hundreds of pages of research that proves that such federation existed. It is just not widely publicized. It is off topic but once i come to the end of this i might open it as a new topic. I really don't have time to translate everything at once.

Here is continuation of the story of Cauci - Chauci

The Origin of Anglo – Saxon race

In the 1906 book entitled “Origin of Anglo – Saxon race” Thomas William Shore, author of 'a history of Hampshire,' etc, Honorary secretary London and Middlesex archaeological society; honorary Organising secretary of the Hampshire field club and Archaeological society, gives detailed analysis of the “Anglo Saxons”, and shows us that both Angles and Saxons were just terms used for complex federations of south Baltic Germanic, Norse and West Slavic tribes. He describes the late Iron Age and early medieval northern central Europe as a melting pot where future great nations of Franks, Angles, Saxons, Danes, Norse, were being created from tribal federations of mixed Germanic and Slavic ethnic, linguistic and cultural origin. This is what the Origin of Anglo – Saxon race has to say about the Franks:

The name Frank supplies a good example. This was the name of a great confederation,all the members of it agreeing in calling themselves free.
Hence, instead of assuming migrations (some historically improbable) to account for the Franks of France, the Franks of Franche-comte, and the Franks of Franconia, we may simply suppose them to be Franks of different divisions of the Frank confederation i.e., people of various great tribes united under a common designation. Again, the Angli are grouped with the Varini, not only as neighbouring nations on the east coast of Schleswig, but in the matter of laws under their later names, Angles and Warings. Similarly, we read of Goths and Vandals, of Frisians and Chaucians, of Goths and Burgundians, of Engles and Swaifas, of Franks and Batavians, of Wends and Saxons, of Frisians and Hunsings; and as we read of a Frank confederation, there was practically a Saxon one. In later centuries, under the general name of Danes, we are told by Henry of Huntingdon of Danes and Goths, Norwegians and Swedes, Vandals and Frisians, as the names of those people who desolated England for 230 years. 3 The later Saxon confederation is that which was opposed to Charlemagne, but there was certainly an earlier alliance, or there were common expeditions of Saxons and people of other tribes acting together in the invasion of England under the Saxon name.

One of the people who formed Saxon federation were Chauci. Thomas William Shore says this about Chauci:

We can trace various tribes of ancient Frisians viz., the Hunsings, the Brocmen, the Huntanga, and the Chaucians or Hocings, and others. These people appear all to have been designated at times as Frisians, and at other times by their own special or tribal names. The Chaucians, however, were a populous race, and may be regarded in some respects as a separate nation in close connection with, and never in opposition to, the Frisians. They were seated in the country between the Weser and the Elbe. The name Cuxhaven at the mouth of the Elbe is one which was probably derived from the Chaucians, and has come down to us as that of a place situated in their old country.
Among the tribes or allies of the Frisians the most important was the Chauci or Chaucians. Tacitus men- tions them as living on both sides of the Weser. Those settled between the Weser and the Elbe he called Chauci majores ; and those on the west of the Weser, but higher up the river, Chauci minor es. 2 His description of them is that of a considerable nation. He says that the land from Hessia was under the dominion of, and inhabited by, Chauci. He has left two accounts of them somewhat different, but that in his ' Germania ' is believed to have been written later than that in his ' Annals,' or ' History,' and it may well have been that before writing his later account he had had opportunities of learning more about them and correcting his previous statements. He says that the Chauci never excited wars nor harassed their neighbours, and that they wished to support their grandeur by justice. This description agrees with the character of the Frisians, and may perhaps be taken to refer also to them. The accounts which Tacitus gives of the German people between the Rhine and the Elbe are of more value than that of those beyond the Elbe, for in the former case he wrote from information collected from people who had actually travelled through the countries, which in the latter was probably not the case, as the countries were further removed from the Roman influence.
The question may here suggest itself : What have these Chauci or Chaucians to do with the English settlement ? I see no reason to doubt that they had a considerable share in it. Kemble found near Stade, in the part of ancient Frisia occupied by the Chaucians, and also far up the Weser, certain mortuary urns of a kind that is rare or unknown in other parts of Germany, but known to occur in Suffolk, Warwickshire, Derbyshire, the Isle of Wight, and other parts of England, and the Chaucian name apparently survives in many old English place-names.
Ptolemy's account of these people agrees in regard to their locality with that of Tacitus. He says that they were contiguous to the Frisii, and, like them, extended along the coast, but also further inland. He tells us also that the Frisii lay in front of the Angrivarii, who, as we have seen, were a tribe of the Saxons, for these Angrivarii of the earlier centuries were the same as the Angarians or Engern people of Carlovingian time. Ptolemy says that the Chauci reached to the Elbe. The survival of such a name as Cuxhaven in their old country is significant, the first syllable Cux having come form Chauc. This etymology, which has generally been adopted, is important in reference to the traces of the Chaucians which may be found in England. Here in an ancient Chaucian region a survival of the old tribal or national name exists in the form Cux. In various parts of England where Frisians settled we shall also find it.
The name under which the Chaucians are mentioned in the Sagas is that of Hocings. In Beowulf we read of them under this name. Word for word, says Latham, this word Hoeing is held to be that of Chauci by all, or most, who have written on the subject. Hoeing, however, with its suffix -ing, means not so much a Chaucus as of Chauch blood. 1 The identity of the names is established by the ancient sound of ch being equivalent to that of h. This identification will be of use in endeavouring to unravel the threads in the tangled skein of information which has come down to us relating to the people concerned in the English settlement. The Chauci as a nation have long since disappeared, and were probably absorbed by the Franks of Germany. Some of them, no doubt, migrated to England, where they were absorbed in the Old English race. If we look for traces of them in England through the names by which they were known in their Continental home, we shall discover many parts of the country in which small colonies of them probably settled. As regards their alternative name Hocings, philologists give us several examples of the equivalence of the early ch and h sounds in these tribal or national names. South of the Chauci another great tribe of German people known as the Chatti were situated, from which, according to German philologists, in which others concur, the name Hesse has been derived. The Hessians are the descendants of the ancient Chatti or Hatti. They are mentioned under the names Chattuarii, Attuarii, and Hetware. In the name Attuarii, as Latham has pointed out, the ch sound disappears altogether. Hesse also, says Latham, word for word is Chatti. The Old Frisian ch was equivalent to the Anglo-Saxon h. We may therefore accept the identity of the sounds chauc- and hoc- in the names Chauci and Hocings, and this will be of interest in reference to traces of them in England. At some time during the period of the growth of the Frank confederation the Chaucians assumed the name of Franks, and their name disappeared from history.
Among Domesday names of significance in reference to Frisians of the Chaucian tribe are Cochinges and Cocheha. As in some other counties in which there are traces of Wendish settlers, we find a place-name containing the root sem, probably derived from the old Slavonic word for land. It occurs in the Domesday place-name Semlintun.
The number of places in Sussex whose names bear a resemblance to Frisian names is remarkable. The terminal pronunciation of some of them in -urn and -un also resembles the Frisian. In Friesland we find Dokkum, Workum, Bergum, Akkrum, Wierum, Hallum, Ulrum, Loppersum, Makkum, Bedum, and others of the same kind. In Sussex we find Horsham (locally pronounced Horsum and Hawsom), Hailsham (Helsum), Sedlecombe (Selzcum), Friston (Frissun), Cocking (Cokkun), Lillington (Linkun). 1 The indications pointing to Frisians in this county are sufficient to show that people of this nation must have settled among the South Saxons.
That there were among these Frisians tribal Hunsings and Chaucians is probable from such family names as Friston, Hunston, the Domesday names Cocheha, Cokkefeld, and the numerous similar names, Cuckmere, Cuckfield, Cocking, Cockhais, Cockshut stream, Cokeham (a hamlet of Sompting), and Cooksbridge, north of Lewes. These latter, which may be compared with Cuxhaven in the old country of the Chaucians and similar names in various parts of England, point to family settlements of these tribal people.
Swaefes heale points to Saxons settled in East Berkshire, with Scandians, Wends, and Goths as their neighbours.
In this part of the country we also find the significant name of Cookham, mentioned in an Anglo-Saxon charter as Coccham, in Domesday Book as Cocheham. As already pointed out, a similar name Ceokan-ege occurs in an early charter relating to Battersea. There are many examples which show that the sounds g and k were interchangeable in names of the Anglo-Saxon period. Higher up the valley we find similar names viz., Cuxham, Coxwell, and others. These apparently have a common source, in the tribal name of the Chaucians, the Frisian tribe near the mouth of the Elbe.
The Chaucians, as previously mentioned, were also called Hocings, and both forms of their name are probably met with in place-names in the Thames valley. Hocheston, now part of London, is the Domesday name for Hoxton, and may denote the settlement of a Chaucian. In the eastern part of Berkshire we find separate hundreds mentioned in the Hundred Rolls for Sonning, Bray, Cogham or Cookham, and Windsor. This Cogham hundred of the thirteenth century may be a survival of a more ancient separate local administration, as the hundreds of Bray, Sunninges, and Windsor may be, of the original settlers at these places. Another entry under the name Cocheham occurs in Domesday Book in Burnham hundred in Buckinghamshire, not far from the Berkshire place of this name, so that some of this family or kindred appear to have lived on both sides of the river.

Now what this shows us is that we can find the Cauci, Chauci not only in South Baltic and in Leinster in Ireland, but also among the Anglo Saxons in England. These are the same areas where we later find the Dano Slavic Vikings of Danelaw.

I recommend the book as a must read for anyone who wants to understand the Iron Age and early medieval Baltic and its relationship with British Isles and Ireland. You can find the book here:

http://archive.org/stream/originofanglosax00shoruoft/originofanglosax00shoruoft_djvu.txt

It opened my eyes and showed me the link between the Iron Age invasions and Viking invasions of British Isles. It also shows the extent of intermixing between the Germanic and Slavic people of the South Baltic area.

 

[dublin]

Cauci, Garmen, Slavs, Celts and wolf people

The Chauci (or Cauci, Chauken, or even Caülci) formed a relatively large Germanic tribe, comparable to the early Frisians in number. By the second century they were located in the far north-western corner of modern Germany, between the lower Rhine and the Elbe. To the south were the Tencteri and Usipetes, to the south-west were the Bructeri and Chamavi, with the coastal Frisii to the west, and the Aviones (Eowan) and Reudingi (Rondings) to the north, across the Elbe.
The early Indo-European Germanic tribes may have originated in southern Scandinavia (modern Sweden). In the early first century AD, Pliny and Strabo describe the Chauci, Cimbri, and Teutones as inhabiting central Denmark, forming a group known as the Ingaevones. ('Ingaevones' itself may be a derivative of the later Angles, who may have been part of the same collective, along with theJutes). Strabo says that the Romans introduced the name 'Germani' because these tribes were the 'authentic Celts'. Alternatively, it is possible that the Germani were allies of the Celts (a theory that is supported by Edward Dawson).
The construction 'Ger-man' breaks down into 'ger' (still used in English as 'gar', the name of a fish) meaning spear, and 'man' which is unchanged in meaning. 'Her-man' is another form of the word. It was likely to have been formed of 'ger' for a spear and 'ker' for an army of spearmen, for which 'k' was softened to an 'h'. Some sources suggest quite wrongly that Germani means 'neighbour' or 'men of the forest'. Instead, the possessors of this name were tough, fierce killers and would not have named themselves anything quite so friendly. The Romans introduced Germani because they consistently heard both forms from the Germans themselves: 'herman' as inHermunduri, and 'german', because these warriors called themselves just that: spearmen. The Heruli and Cherusci names may also derive from or contain this root word for spear, meaning an army (of spears).
The Chauci had settlements both along the coast and further inland, especially along the banks of the Weser, which flowed through the centre of their territory into the North Sea. The coastal Chauci lived on man-made hills called terpen which protected them from the tidal flooding that affected the coast of the Netherlands and Denmark prior to the building of dikes. The Angles to the north were also well known for this form of abode, and they and the Chauci, along with most of the other local Germanic tribes, possessed the same material culture, making it difficult to distinguish between them archaeologically.

http://www.historyfiles.co.uk/KingListsEurope/BarbarianChauci.htm


Couple of things are interesting to specially underline in the above excerpt:


1. The construction 'Ger-man' breaks down into 'ger' (still used in English as 'gar', the name of a fish) meaning spear, and 'man' which is unchanged in meaning. 'Her-man' is another form of the word. (someone else apart from me thinks that this is possible)
2. Pliny and Strabo describe the Chauci, Cimbri, and Teutones as inhabiting central Denmark, forming a group known as the Ingaevones. ('Ingaevones' itself may be a derivative of the later Angles, who may have been part of the same collective, along with theJutes)
3. Strabo says that the Romans introduced the name 'Germani' because these tribes were the 'authentic Celts'.


So in the south Baltic at the time of Roman invasions we have Garmans desrcribed as Authentic Celts. Is it because the Garmen were the spear men, the military elite of the central European Celtic world? Or alternatively, it is possible that the Germani were allies of the Celts (a theory that is supported by Edward Dawson). Also Chauci are linked to Cimbri which are in turn are linked to the welsh and through name to the slavs.

The origin of the name Cimbri is unknown. One etymology[7] is PIE *tḱim-ro- "inhabitant", from tḱoi-m- "home" (> Eng. home), itself a derivation from tḱei- "live" (> Greekκτίζω, Latin sinō); then, the Germanic *χimbra- finds an exact cognate in Slavic sębrъ "farmer" (> Croatian, Serbian sebar, Russ. sjabër).
Because of the similarity of the names, the Cimbri were at times associated with Cymry, the Welsh name for themselves.[8] However, this word is regularly derived from Celtic *Kombrogi, meaning “compatriots”.[9] Cumry is an evoluted form of the Old Welsh, with an assimilation of to first [m], the second element brogi changed into bro “country” in Modern Welsh. It is hardly conceivable that the Romans would have recorded such a form as Cimbri[10][11] The name has also been related to the word kimme meaning “rim”, i.e. the people of the coast.[12] Finally, since Antiquity, the name has been related to that of the Cimmerians.[13]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cimbri


In the 1906 book entitled “Origin of Anglo – Saxon race” Thomas William Shore says that Tacitus has left two accounts of Chauci somewhat different. In ' Annals,' and ' History’ he describes them as the wild warriors, see pirates, but in his ' Germania ' he says that the Chauci never excited wars nor harassed their neighbours, and that they wished to support their grandeur by justice. Which one of these two statements is true? I believe the first.

The coastal Chauci have already been noted for their seafaring ability, and it seems they turn this to good use, raiding the coastline of Roman-controlled Gallia Belgica to the south of the Rhine in this year. This is doubtlessly one of many such raids against wealthy imperial targets, many of which are later forgotten or are not recorded.

This is total accord with what we know of Cauci and the rest of the Laigin.They were warriors and mercenaries who in conquered large territory in Ireland in Leinster and Connacht. Their name association with Laighi, the ancient name for Leinster, suggests that this was where they first settled. Eventually, they extended their power to Connacht, and in the process forced the Firbolg tribes into the remoter parts of the province. The remains of many great stone forts built by the Firbolgs in their defense against the Laigain tribes can still be seen in remote areas of western Ireland. Within a few generations the Laigain tribes had established themselves in Connacht, where in County Sligo their descendants include the O'Haras, O'Garas, and others.


It is very very interesting that the Laigin tribes from Connacht are O'Haras and O'Garas, which literally means the people of the spear. It is very interesting that they are being connected to Cruithin (Pruteni) as it is now emerging that Cruithin (Pruteni) are linked to I2a haplogroup and therefore to the central Europe.

Prior to the latter 5th century the overlordship of Leinster was held by the Fir Domnann. They are sometimes cited as a tribe of Firbolgs, usually called Damnonii. The Fir Domnann were claimed to be connected to the Dumnonii tribe who invaded Leinster sometime before the 4th century, and were said to have come from western Caernarvonshire, south of Anglesey, in Wales. Another very early conquering tribe comes down from native tradition as the Gáileóin, who perhaps can be later identifed as the Gailenga of Meath and north county Dublin. Galion and Domnand, alias Laigin, as said in Táin bó Cualnge.
The last of the Dumnonians ruled in the 5th century under the tribal name of Dál Messin Corb. They were ousted by what may be called the original Laigin tribes of the Uí Failge, Uí Bairrche and Uí Enechglaiss. At around the same period the Loígis and Fothairt were mercenary tribes of the Laigin and probably of Cruithin (Pict) origin. The Uí Bairrche are in turn said to be related to the Brigantes tribe of northern Britain, and they ruled southern Leinster from the earliest centuries A.D. until their power was broken by the Uí Cheinnselaig.

http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~irlkik/ihm/leinster.htm


The Cauci of Laigin were famous sea pirates who regularly raided the welsh coast and even established permanent colonies on the Welsh coast. Sea pirates need ships, and to build ships you need good wood, and not any wood, but oak, the traditional ship building wood in south Baltic. Oak was still exclusively used for ship building in the South Baltic in the Viking times, and this is one of the main ways to distinguish Dano Slavic (South Baltic) from Norse Viking ships which were built from pine. If you needed good oak in Ireland in the Iron Age and the early medieval time, there was no better place than the Dublin and Wicklow mountains and the hinterland behind them.


Recently released book “Secrets of the Irish Landscape” published by the University College Cork and RTE, as well as the accompanying tv series examines the history of the Irish Landscape since the last Ice Age until now. The book also celebrates the life of Robert Lloyd Praeger (The Way That I Went) and the Clare Island survey which was completed in 1913 – so this is its centenary year. In the book we are told originally the whole of Ireland was covered by huge oak forests. But by the beginning of the Iron Age most of the south western and central Ireland was totally deforested and in combination with Irish cold and rainy climate turned to wasteland ranging from stone desert of Burren, to vast tracts of bog lands covering central Ireland.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Burren
http://www.ipcc.ie/a-to-z-peatlands/blanket-bogs/


The last big tracts of oak forest remained in the north east of Ireland. So it seems that the oak was the reason why all the South Baltic sea people settled in in the north east of Ireland.

The tribes of Leinster were united by Úgaine Mór (Hugony, the Great), who supposedly built the hill-fort of Dún Ailinne, nearKilcullen, County Kildare. He is a likely, but uncertain candidate as the first historical king of Laigin (Leinster) in the 7th century BC. The kingdom of Laigin was re-founded circa 175/185 AD following a period of civil wars in Ireland by the legendary Cathair Mor. Finn Mac Cool, or Fionn mac Cumhaill, was reputed to have built a stronghold at the Hill of Allen, on the edge of the Bog of Allen, in what was then Leinster.
In the 4th and 5th centuries, after Magnus Maximus left Britain with his legions, leaving a power vacuum, colonists from Laigin settled in North Wales, specifically in Anglesey, Carnarvonshire and Denbighshire. In Wales some of the Leinster-Irish colonists left their name on the Llŷn Peninsula, which derives its name from Laigin. In the 5th century the emerging Uí Néilldynasties from Connacht conquered areas of Westmeath, Meath and Offaly from the Uí Enechglaiss and Uí Failge of the Laigin. Uí Néill Ard Righ attempted to exact the Boroimhe Laighean, or cattle-tribute from the Laigin from that time, in the process becoming their traditional enemies.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leinster


So now we more or less know the position of the the Chauci and other "garmanic" true Celtic tribes in the south Baltic during the late Iron Age and early medieval time. Lets now compare this with the position of West Slavic tribes from the same period:


In the 1906 book entitled “Origin of Anglo – Saxon race” Thomas William Shore describes in detail the position of various Wendish (West Slavic) tribes during the Anglo Saxon invasions and he says that in the in the 6th Century Wilti lived in Frisia where their main stronghold was Wiltaburg or as Franks called it Utreht.

The migration of the Wilte from the shores of the Baltic and the foundation of a colony in the country around Utrecht is certainly historical. Bede mentions it in connection with the mission of Wilbrord. He says : ' The Venerable Wilbrord went from Frisia to Rome, where the Pope gave him the name
of Clement, and sent him back to his bishopric. Pepin gave him a place for his episcopal see in his famous castle, which, in the ancient language of those people, is called Wiltaburg i.e., the town of the Wilti but in the French tongue Utrecht.' 2 Venantius also tells us that the Wileti or Wiltzi, between A.D. 560-600, settled near the city of Utrecht, which from them was called Wilta- burg, and the surrounding country Wiltenia. 3 Such a migration would perhaps be made by land, and some of these Wilte may have gone further.

In the same book we can find this as well:

In the North lived the ancient Slav tribes of Pomerania, Mecklenburg, Brandenburg, and those located on the banks of the Elbe, comprising the Polabians, the Obodrites, the Wiltzi, those known at one time as Rugini, the Lutitzes, and the Northern Sorabians or Serbs…

And also this.

Westward of the Elbe the Slavic Sorabians had certainly pushed their way, before they were finally
checked by Charlemagne and his successors. The German annals of the date A.D. 782 tell us that the Sorabians at that time were seated between the Elbe and the Saale, where place-names of Slavonic origin remain to this day.


Those Wends who were located on the Lower Elbe, near Liineburg and Hamburg, were known as Polabians, through having been seated on or near this river, from po, meaning 'on,' and laba, the Slavic name for the Elbe.


The eastern corner of the former kingdom of Hanover, and especially that in the circuit of Liichow, which even to the present day is called Wendland, was a district west of the Elbe, where the Wends formed a colony, and where the Polabian variety of the Wendish language survived the longest.

The latest Archaeological finds from the Drevanen triangle which around the year 800 ad was defined by Magdeburg in the south, Schezla in the west, Bardowick in the north and river Elbe(Laba) are showing that there existed a continuity between the Longobards and Obodriti (Bodrici). This basically proves that certain “Germanic” tribes from south Baltic known from the Iron Age are in the early medieval time appearing classified as West Slavic tribes under different name. Bardowick actually got its name from Longobardi, or long bearded people. West Slavic Obodrites were also known as long bearded.

Bardowick is one of the oldest cities of north Germany. Its name is first mentioned in 785. AD, when it was the Slavic border town on the Saxon – Slavic border.

http://www.bardowick.de/desktopdefault.aspx/tabid-2190/4197_read-24759/

785 The village „Bardunwi” is mentioned for the first in the Annals of Lorsch.
795 Charlemagne stays either in or near Bardowick.
8 – 12th century: The town is located on the border of the territory then occupied by Slavic settlements and is described as a central trading post in the Diedenhofener Capitulary 805, the laws granting the village the right to mint coins, hold markets and collect tarifs.

http://www.eurob.org/index.php/357/4

The first documented 785 already mentioned place Bardowick was during the wars of Charlemagne against the Saxons (772 - 804) several more visits from him.
Already 805 he is called as a trading center. Long-distance trade that time was chiefly in the hands of the Frisians, who buried their dead in Bardowick.

http://www.luene-info.de/lueneburger_geschichte/urgeschichte/frueh.html


Here you can see coins (Denars) minted in the area. Please notice the characteristic Serbian heraldic symbol, the cross with four firesteels.


View attachment 5879




http://www.bonatiele.nl/FDETDU/frames-midden-mittelalterlichemuenzen11.jahrhundert.html


This confirmed continuity between the Longobards and Obodrites, and all the mentions of the Wendish (West Slavic) tribes in the south Baltic in the Iron Age makes me ask this question:


Is there any possible connection between Irish Cauci, south Baltic Chauci and any West Slavic (Wendish) people? If we look at the territory that Chauci inhabited during Roman invasions, we see that only couple of centuries later, the same territory is inhabited by the West Slavic Wolci (Wilti, Wiltzi), Dervani and Obodriti (Wearing, Warangians).


In the 1906 book entitled “Origin of Anglo – Saxon race” Thomas William Shore says this about Wilti:

…During the time of the Anglo-Saxon period the Slavs in the North of Europe extended as far westward as the Elbe and to places beyond it. On the east bank of that river were the Polabian Wends, and these were apparently a branch of the Wilte or Wiltzi. This name Wiltzi has been derived from the old Slavic word for wolf, wilk, plural wiltzi, and was given to this great tribe from their ferocious courage. The popular name Wolf mark still survives in North-East Germany, near the eastern limit of their territory. These people called themselves Welatibi, a name derived from welot, a giant, and were also known as the Haefeldan, or Men of Havel, from being seated near the river Havel, as mentioned by King Alfred. The inhabitants of the coast near Stralsund, who were called Rugini or Rugians, and who are mentioned by Bede as one of the nations from whom the Anglo-Saxons of his time were known to have derived their origin, 1 must have been included within the general name of the Wends. As these Rugians must have been Wends, the statement of Bede is direct evidence that some of the people of England in his time were known to be of Wendish descent…

Here is one etymology of the name Chauci:


http://webdev.archive.org/stream/Old...cle_2_djvu.txt

...or even to the IE adj. *k'ouk-, cf. Germanic *hauha 'high', cf. Goth, hauhs, hauhis 'high' (for attestations Heidermanns 1993, 285f), or the name of Germanic tribe Chauci (Cauchi, as in Tac. Germ. 35) which seems to mean something like 'tall, big' (cf. also OHG poetic name Hugones for the Ingaevonic Franks, Anglo-Sax. Hugas, or OHG Hugdetrich as 'Frankish Dietrich' in opposite to Ostrogothic Theodoric, cf. Much 1967 3 , 55, 407)...

So in east Frisia, in the exact place where we find Chauci which were described as tall and big, we find Volci, Wilti, who call themselves Welatibi which comes from the word welot which means giant, tall person??? Are Chauci and Wilti just two names for the same people?


Wilti were the same as Lutici (angry, evil) or Veleti (big, giant), German: Wieleten; or Volci (wolf people) Polish: Wieleci, или Wilzi(ans), Wilci, also Wiltzes; Wilzen…Russians say that


All these were the names for the people who manned the western border of the Slavic Germanic, Celtic land of central Europe. My opinion is that these were the spear men of northern Europe, the Gar men, the Germans, the Serbs, the Goths, the military elite, the border guard. Were these people ethnically homogenous? I don’t know but I don't think so. I believe that what united them was the old European religion and military elite tradition. Once Christianity came in this military elide was divided and effectively used against each other.


As I said already, Iron Age and early medieval northern central Europe was a melting pot where future great nations of Franks, Angles, Saxons, Danes, Norse, were being created from tribal federations of mixed Germanic and Slavic ethnic, linguistic and cultural origin.


Very soon one of these multi ethnic federations, the Frankish federation, becomes the dominant power in the region mainly due to the fact that it accepted Christianity as its religion. This very quickly homogenized this tribal confederation into a nation. Soon this new Christian nation was mobilised and sent to the first Christian holy war against the pagan Wends or Slavs in central Europe. What is very interesting is how much the Irish had to do with this forced Christianisation of central Europe. The Irish historians like to call this early medieval Ireland “the land of saints and scholars”, but Ireland in the early medieval times resembled more a huge training camp for religious zealots, who after finishing their “studying” in Irish monasteries, went to the land of the Franks and the surrounding Wendish lands, where they basically spread Christianity by the cross or by the sword, We can almost say that the Irish Christians, created the Frankish empire and future Catholic Europe.


How deep the link between the Irish and the Franks was in the early medieval time we can see from this:

Among other students of high rank was the Frankish prince who afterward became King Dagobert II, who passed his youth in foreign lands as an exile from his country, and whose student days were spent at the school of Slane, in Westmeath. It is a testimony to the widespread reputation of the Irish schools in the seventh century that one of them should have been chosen for the education of this Frankish prince by the lords of his household. On his return home in 670 the young prince was attended by a train of Irish friends, one of whom, St Arbogast, he raised to the see of Strassburg. His successor founded there a monastery for ' Scots ' or Irish in 687. Another of his followers, Maelceadar, an Irish warrior, became a person of distinction at Dagobert's Court. His wife, St Waldetrude, the patroness of Mons, accompanied her husband when he went on a visit to his native land to invite Irish teachers to come over and settle in the Frankish kingdom.

http://www.libraryireland.com/HullHistory/EarlyChristianIreland4.php

During the sixth and seventh centuries the greatest missionary activity was shown by the Scots who dwelt in Ireland. In that country religion was cherished with greater zeal than elsewhere, and learning was fostered for the sake of the Church. But not content with the flourishing state of Christianity in their own island, the most zealous monks often passed over to the continent. There even the nominal Christians were little inclined to follow the precepts of the religion which they professed. Gaul especially attracted the attention of the bold missionaries from Ireland, and the Irish usages became well established in some parts of lie country. Unfortunately almost all the accounts of the missionaries from Ireland have been lost; consequently this biography of Columban is of great value.

http://www.liturgies.net/saints/columban/life.htm


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Columbanus


Columbanus (the Latinised form of Columbán, meaning the white dove) was born in Leinster in the Kingdom of Meath in present-day Ireland in 543.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Meath

Meath is traditionally said to have been created during the 1st century AD by Tuathal Teachtmhar. The Uí Enechglaiss was an earlydynasty who were kings of the region. An ogham stone found south of Slane suggests they originally may have controlled this area in County Meath. They along with the Uí Failge and Uí Bairrche, belonged to the Laigin, but may also be associated with the Érainn.

This Columban is very interesting character. His name in old Irish apparently means “dove” and has no meaning in modern Irish. Interestingly in Serbian word “golub” means “pigeon” or “dove”. He also comes from the land of the Laigin, the Spear people.
One thing we need to know about the spear people and any other military elite is that they are genetic religious fanatics and will, once converted turn against their own tribe with the same passion with which they were originally protecting it.


Remember that Chauci were also called Καῦκοι , Cauci, Chauken, or even Caülci. This last name is very important.


I recently watched a program on bbc called the wofland:

WOLFLAND - a New RTÉ/BBC Irish language two part documentary that explores our fascination and fear of the Wolf.
There was a time, when over 20,000 wolves roamed Ireland. As super predators they are a natural part of the landscape and ecosystem and are deeply embedded in many of our famous myths and legends.
In this documentary series, Dr. Éamonn Ó Ciardha looks at our complex relationship with the Wolf, taking us on a hair raising journey into Ireland's past, exploring the background to what many of us experience as an instinctive fear of the Wolf or Mac Tíre - son of the land. A land that was in increasing turmoil at the turn of the 16th century as plantation settlers began to arrive. For them, the wolf became a fearsome symbol of this wild and dangerous land.
Large-scale farming and deforestation saw the wolf rapidly losing its hunting and breeding grounds. But war, rebellion and fighting between settlers and a growing number of Irish rebels provided rich pickings for wolves - preying on livestock and scavenging on the fallen. The terrified settlers called their new home "Wolfland".

http://www.rte.ie/tv/programmes/wolfland.html




Today the word for wolf in Irish is Mac Tíre which means son of the land. The old Irish word for wolf is olc, which today means evil. I actually believe that the word was originally "volk" but Gaelic has no "v" so it became oulk or olk. But there is another old Irish word for wolf faolchú, which is pronounced as fwilku fwolku. Who could have brought this word for wolf to Ireland as it is obvious that it wasn't the Gaels? I can think of Geramnic tribes with their wolf but we have even closer match with West Slavic volk, vilk, vlk...


So now we have:


1. Tribe Chauci in south Baltic
2. Tribe Vilti, Volci in the same place at the same time.
3. Tribe Cauci in Ireland at the same time
4. Word wilk, wolk, wilti, vilci, volci, olk, faolchú


And finally here is the question: is Cauci (Chauci, Καῦκοι), just bastardized Caülci, Kavulci, Kavuci, Kavukovi, Ka Vlci, Ka Vuci, Ka Vukovi, Kao Vuci, Kao Vukovi which means like wolfs, wolf like, wolf people, warriors wearing wolf skins???


Wofland gives us a possible proof that this could be so. It tells us that Ireland has long tradition of wolf people of strange tales of warewolfs and shape shifters who can turn from man to wolf and vice versa, and of strange wolf bands of young warriors who lived like wolves. And in the early medieval time that is almost exclusively tradition attributed to the Slavs. But more about this later. But just to say for the end that this silly little question led me straight to the wolf tribes of Europe and eventually to Vinca....

 

[dublin]

Celtic or Slavic

I have been talking a lot about the Germanic - Slavic (and soon we will see maybe even Baltic) people living in Ireland in late Iron age and early Medieval time. I am planning to talk about it some more because i have two more important but mysterious people to cover: Fomorians and Pruteni.

But before i continue, i just want to give my reason why i am so concentrated on this at the moment:

The reason is this:

The Celtic or Keltic languages (usually pronounced /ˈkɛltɪk/ but sometimes /ˈsɛltɪk/)^[1] are descended from Proto-Celtic, or "Common Celtic"; a branch of the greater Indo-European language family. The term "Celtic" was first used to describe this language group byEdward Lhuyd in 1707.^[2]
Celtic languages are most commonly spoken on the north-western edge of Europe, notably in Ireland, Scotland, Wales, Brittany,Cornwall, and the Isle of Man, and can be found spoken on Cape Breton Island. There are also a substantial number of Welsh speakers in the Patagonia area of Argentina. Some people speak Celtic languages in the other Celtic diaspora areas of the United States,^[3]Canada, Australia,^[4] and New Zealand.^[5] In all these areas, the Celtic languages are now only spoken by minorities though there are continuing efforts at revitalization.
During the 1st millennium BC, they were spoken across Europe, in the Iberian Peninsula, from the Atlantic and North Sea coastlines, up the Rhine valley and down the Danube valley to the Black Sea, the Upper Balkan Peninsula, and in Galatia in Asia Minor. The spread to Cape Breton and Patagonia occurred in modern times. Celtic languages, particularly Irish, were spoken in Australia before federation in 1901 and are still used there to some extent.^[6]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celtic_languages

Celtic language is the language once spoken in the whole of Europe, but today it is only spoken in Ireland, Scotland, Wales, Brittany,Cornwall, and the Isle of Man.

So here we come to the fundamental problem: Was Proto Celtic language deduced from today's "Celtic" languages like Gaelic, Welsh, Manx, Breton? If we look at the official history of the Ireland, we see this isolated Celtic land which for 1000 years only had influence from Celtic Gaul and Celtic Iberia. The first non “Celtic” people to arrive to Ireland were the Vikings in the 9^th century, but they were too late to influence the creation of the “Celtic” Gaelic language. So we have absolute right to say that Irish is a Celtic language.

But we are seeing how huge the influence of the central European and South Baltic Germanic Slavic culture was in the British Isles, the "Celtic" heartland much earlier than the 9^th century and the Vikings. So this then presents a problem: is this Proto Celtic language which we have found in the indigenous languages in the British Isles, just a small part of the real old European Celtic language? Namely is this “Celtic” part found in “Celtic” languages just the part of the real Celtic language, which Gaels and the Welsh, and Bretons incorporated into their languages while mixing with the real Celts of Central Europe, Slavs, Balts and Germans, who are still in effect speaking the Celtic language today in the same area of Europe where it was always spoken? Is it time to rethink the whole “Celtic languages” thing? Are central European, mainly Slavic languages but also Germanic and Baltic languages, the real Celtic languages?

If this is the case, then all documented common words in Celtic and Slavic languages should not surprise you anymore.

Here is just an example of what I am talking about:

Pavel Serafimov

CELTO-SLAVIC SIMILARITIES

Abstract

Combined analysis of languages, historical sources, burial types, architecture and religion reveals that a part of the Gauls called also Celts were in fact a Western Slavic branch consisting of different tribes who inhabited the lands of ancient France, Austria, Switzerland, Hungary, etc. These people were responsible for the spread of iron in Central and Western Europe and were also the ones to whom the ethnonym Celts was applied for the first time. Unless other ancient testimonies or new archaeological discoveries appear, it should be admitted that Slavic tribes inhabited not only Eastern, but also Central and Western Europe in the deep antiquity and were strong, highly developed people, who influenced many others. Novel evidence of Slavic presence in Western Europe and British Isles is presented in this paper. Scientific method demands that the opposing arguments and theories have to be considered. Counter evidence and counter arguments are welcome….

http://www.korenine.si/zborniki/zbornik06/serafimov_celtoslav06.pdf

Or this:

Pavel Serafimov, Giancarlo Tomezzoli

Slavic influences in the Ancient Gaul

Introduction

It is common opinion between the scholars and the people that the ancient gauls formed a compact set of Celtic tribes speaking the gaulish language or similar varieties of the same one [1]. The gaulish language also called Classical Celtic had practically nothing in common with Insular Celtic; it was very close to the Italic group of tongues and had grammatical forms similar to those of the Proto-Indo-European model [1]. however, the publication in a recent past of relevant works has animated the debate about the slavic cultural and religious influences and about the slavic presence in the ancient gaul. With this paper, after having reviewed said relevant works, we analyze in more details some origins of these influences and presence so as to introduce some more arguments and evidences into the debate.

http://www.korenine.si/zborniki/zbornik10/seraf_slavic_gaul.pdf

Without knowing how strong and how long the influence of the Central European cultures which reached Ireland and Britain via South Baltic was, the above claims would have been absurd. Now they are to be expected.

So I will continue to talk about the Baltic Irish for few more days. I will continue with Pruteni, the Lake people…

 

[inver2b1]

Sounds a bit like a thread on the linguitics forum.

 

[inver2b1]

This one.
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/26549-Celtic-Serbian-parallels

 

[LeBrok]

I didn't have time to go through new Dublin fantasies. I'm sure it will be closed too, unless somehow i'm positively surprised.

 

[nordicwarrior]

I didn't have time to go through new Dublin fantasies. I'm sure it will be closed too, unless somehow i'm positively surprised.

The Chauci are one of my favorite tribes so I have a fairly deep knowledge of their accomplishments/associations... Dublin's comments match up with what I know. Plus he seems to be quoting valid sources throughout. There may be an incredible amount of coffee fueling these posts, but they are well researched.