Old Europe (Vinca) language and culture in early layers of Serbian and Irish language

[dublin]

Inver

Yes id does to the point. I contributed to that thread long time ago. But lots of new material came to my attention since then. This is a lot more complex then i even suspected at that time, as i already said before....

nordicwarbler thanks for this comment. its 20 years of research that went into this....

lebrock

maybe if you read what i write you might change your mind.

Anyway I am not going to your threads and demand them to be closed just because i don't agree with what is being said there.

 

[ElHorsto]

I recommend the book as a must read for anyone who wants to understand the Iron Age and early medieval Baltic and its relationship with British Isles and Ireland. You can find the book here:

http://archive.org/stream/originofanglosax00shoruoft/originofanglosax00shoruoft_djvu.txt

It opened my eyes and showed me the link between the Iron Age invasions and Viking invasions of British Isles. It also shows the extent of intermixing between the Germanic and Slavic people of the South Baltic area.

The impact of the wends, obotrites, polabians,.. on the saxons is indeed something worth to investigate more. Polabian was still spoken in the 18th century in a part of east lower-saxony (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wendland), quite far away from Poland. It is considered to be the western-most slavic-speaking land. In Wendtland there aren't any obvious slavic hints, except the many village and town names of course. The people there as well as to the east look very commonly north-german too. Historically it is recorded which parts were saxon lands and which ones were conquered slavic lands. What is new from this book is that not only "original" west saxons came to britain, but also those from former slavic lands and that some slavs made it to Utrecht in Holland. But I've read only a few pages yet. There is not much R1a in England at least, which is also surprising given that there is 30% R1a in scandinavia and north-germany.
The genetic evidence of assimilated slavs in north-germany is still weak (one publication estimates 25% of the male lineages based on surnames and YDNA), which might be either due to natural genetic similarity between germanics and slavs (R1a), or due to slavicised east-germanic tribes.

 

[zanipolo]

The impact of the wends, obotrites, polabians,.. on the saxons is indeed something worth to investigate more. Polabian was still spoken in the 18th century in a part of east lower-saxony (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wendland), quite far away from Poland. It is considered to be the western-most slavic-speaking land. In Wendtland there aren't any obvious slavic hints, except the many village and town names of course. The people there as well as to the east look very commonly north-german too. Historically it is recorded which parts were saxon lands and which ones were conquered slavic lands. What is new from this book is that not only "original" west saxons came to britain, but also those from former slavic lands and that some slavs made it to Utrecht in Holland. But I've read only a few pages yet. There is not much R1a in England at least, which is also surprising given that there is 30% R1a in scandinavia and north-germany.
The genetic evidence of assimilated slavs in north-germany is still weak (one publication estimates 25% of the male lineages based on surnames and YDNA), which might be either due to natural genetic similarity between germanics and slavs (R1a), or due to slavicised east-germanic tribes.

but wend is associated to mean foreigner ie non-germanic people in the ancient times. It was also used to name baltic people as Romans did not know any balts as a tribal name only finnoi , sarmatians etc

the Vindelici people of bavaria where named because of the Vindo river ( now known as wertach ) and the licus ( now as lech river). vindo was wend - because they where not germanic

 

[ElHorsto]

But this is what I'm saying. It is called Wendland because the people there spoke a foreign (i.e. slavic) language.

but wend is associated to mean foreigner ie non-germanic people in the ancient times. It was also used to name baltic people as Romans did not know any balts as a tribal name only finnoi , sarmatians etc

the Vindelici people of bavaria where named because of the Vindo river ( now known as wertach ) and the licus ( now as lech river). vindo was wend - because they where not germanic

 

[MOESAN]

I find this thread very confuse if well fed
some points, for me:
There is no obstacle for a pre I-E culture left some cultural and linguistic fossils
some fossils traces can be found among two different cultures having crossed or settled the same region in past
this shared traces by themselves don' t prove in any way "genetical" link between the cultures sharing them
so, on the basis of my readings:
I see no evident particuliar link between Ireland and Serbia, on or without a I-E link - as a whole, the serbian language doesn' t show numerous common words with irish, gaelic or not
I found very confusing the term DUBLIN uses frequently : "South Baltic", mixing central europe ancient cultures with more northern and maritime cultures
is explications about the derived words from 'tuatha' (breton, welsh: 'tud' : "people", previously "race", "descendance", germanic 'theod' or something close to it) considered by him as scornful and the link he does with the Tuatha De Danan are of uncertain value for I think because 1) 'pobl', 'people'='folk', are words very often associated from one part to to the honoured nation and from another part to basic people, poor people, peasantry but also workers - by the ruling upper classes - it 's the same i french, where 'peuple' is an honorable word but where 'populaire' and 'populiste' are words of disdain, as 'vulgo' (french 'vulgaire': bad educated) in latin - Dublin could object: "why the term 'tuatha' was not used for other people?" it 's true; but other subalterne or inferior tribes in Ireland had other names, some in 'Fir ...' ("the men"), why not 'tuatha'? sothis argument is not stupid but it is weak, I think -
on the other hand, De Danan could evocate a population or tribe coming from the Danaw river or even from the Balkans
- helas, this statement opens the door to a lot of possible hypothesis involving I-E or not I-E tribes...
that a pre-gaelic population or mix of populations should have inhabited Ireland and kept lands for a long time is not new:
more than one surely: the first bringers of Neolithic in Ireland are considered as come there about the 4500 BC coming from SW Scotland-NW ENgland (Cumbria) - and the Food Vessels men seemed coming from Spain, at Calcholithical time, bringing 'dinaric' phenotypes and taking the reverse way, going after to Scotland and England - they met surely some Bell Beakers coming fromS-England too, even if these last ones left a light footprint there...
Who were the Gaels and when they came???

 

[LeBrok]

I find this thread very confuse if well fed
some points, for me:

I see no evident particuliar link between Ireland and Serbia, on or without a I-E link - as a whole, the serbian language doesn' t show ?

Exactly my point. Also in some other thread I couldn't find any connection between Slavs and Vikings who invaded Ireland Not even one Slavic name recorded at that time (many Germanic names though), neither valid archeological connection.

 

[dublin]

Hi again. I know I said the last time that i will talk about the Pruteni, but i decided to continue talking abut our friends Laigin and to show you how deep the rabbit hole actually is. I hope you enjoy the ride, and i hope you will begin to see where i am going to.


Long beards, long ears, long blades and long spears


The legendary forefather of the Laigin was Labraid Loingsech.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labraid_Loingsech

Labraid Loingsech (English: the exile, mariner), also known as Labraid Lorc, son of Ailill Áine, son of Lóegaire Lorc, was, according to medieval Irish legend and historical tradition, a High King of Ireland. He was considered the ancestor of the Laigin, who gave their name to the province of Leinster.[1] An early dynastic poem calls him "a god among the gods", suggesting he may once have been an ancestor-deity of the Laigin.[2]

In one of the histories, told by Geoffrey Keating it is said that:

…after spending some time with Scoriath in Munster, Labraid goes to the continent, where he gains great fame as the leader of the bodyguard of the king of France, who is related to Labraid's grandmother, Cessair Chrothach (who was the daughter of a king of the Franks according to the Lebor Gabála). Moriath, hearing of his great deeds, falls in love with him from a distance. She writes a love song for him, and sends Craiftine to Gaul to sing it to him. Labraid is delighted with the song, and decides to return to Ireland and reclaim his territory. The king of France equips him with ships and 2,200 men. His followers are known as Laigin after the broad blue-grey iron spearheads (láigne) they use.[4] T. F. O'Rahilly attempted to explain the confusion over the location of Labraid's exile by suggesting that the name Fir Morca, a people located in Munster in theBook of Leinster account, was a corruption of Armorica in north-west France.[1]…

I have to ask here is France (land of Franks) just later change and addition from the early medieval time when, as we have seen, the relation between the Gaels and the Franks was at its peak? Was the land from which the Labraid brings his garmans or spear men further up north, somewhere around the mouth of river Elbe or beyond? Was the land of his exile the same land from which the Laigin (Cauci, Menapi…) came in the first place? I a king goes into exile it is usually to the domains of his cousins where he can enjoy protection? And if Labraid went to Polabia (Slavic name for the area “po labi” or along the river Elbe) or beyond river Elbe (Laba), is it possible that “Fir Morca” is actually “For Morka” “Fomorka” the land of Fomori which is located beyond the river Elbe?


Here is what Wiki has to say about Fomorians:


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fomorians

The race are known as the Fomoire or Fomoiri, names that are often Anglicised as Fomorians, Fomors or Fomori. Later in Middle Irish they are also known as the Fomórai?. The etymology of the name Fomoire (plural) has been cause for some debate. Medieval Irish scholars thought the name contained the element muire "sea", owing to their reputation as sea pirates.[1] In 1888, John Rhys was the first to suggest that it is an Old Irish word composed of fo "under/below" and muire "sea", concluding that it may refer to beings whose (original) habitat is under the sea.[2] Observing two instances of the early genitive form fomra, Kuno Meyer arrives at the same etymology, but takes it to refer to land by the sea.[3]Whitley Stokes and Rudolf Thurneysen, on the other hand, prefer to connect the second element *mor with a supposed Old English cognate mara "mare" (which survives today in the English word night-mare).[4][5] Building on these hypotheses, Marie-Louise Sjoestedt interprets the combination of fo and the root *mor as a compound meaning "inferior" or "latent demons".[6]

But who were these Fomorians? Some people say that they are just another name for Vikings or see pirates. This is actually quite close to the truth if by Vikings and see pirates we consider see people who came from the north east, more precisely from the south Baltic. Fomorians are indeed the south Baltic people, Western Slavs, Danes, Angles, Saxons, Balts. But they came to Ireland much earlier than the Vikings, probably even before the Iron Age. They lived in Eastern and Northern Ireland and brought culture, old gods like Crom Dubh, arts, crafts...They were so important that all the most important clans claim to have some descent from Fomory. Irish historians agree that their name is not Gaelic and that means probably people of the see, or people who came from across the see, or see pirates or people who live “fo muire” at the coast or as you would say it in Western Slavic “po morje”. Where could have been that land across the see famous for its see pirates whose name sounds like “fo muire” or “po morje”, and which is also known for its culture and technology and wood structure building during bronze and Iron Age?


There is a country like that. It is south Baltic part of Germany, called Pomerania or Pomorje (Land by the see, the coast) as it was known to the people who gave it its name and who called themselves Pomorjani, Pomori, Pomorci (see people, coast people). These Wilti, Obodrites, Lugiani and other West Slavic or Wendish people were famous see pirates and traders well into the late medieval time. They were part of the Angles and Saxons federations during Anglo Saxon invasions and part of the Danish federation during the Viking invasions.


So did Labraid go back to “the old country” until the storm blows over? Quite possible.


It seems that the mouth of river Elbe was a very popular place during the Iron Age. Apart from Cauci, Volci, Pomorjani we find there another interesting tribe: “Longobardi”. Who were these Longobards, what does their name mean and why are they important for understanding of Laigin?


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lombards

The fullest account of Lombard origins, history, and practices is the Historia Langobardorum (History of the Lombards) of Paul the Deacon, written in the 8th century. Paul's chief source for Lombard origins, however, is the 7th-century Origo Gentis Langobardorum(Origin of the Lombard People).
The Origo Gentis Langobardorum tells the story of a small tribe called the Winnili[1] dwelling in southern Scandinavia[2] (Scadanan) (theCodex Gothanus writes that the Winnili first dwelt near a river called Vindilicus on the extreme boundary of Gaul).[3] The Winnili were split into three groups and one part left their native land to seek foreign fields. The reason for the exodus was probably overpopulation.[4] The departing people were led by the brothers Ybor and Aio and their mother Gambara[5] and arrived in the lands of Scoringa, perhaps the Baltic coast[6] or the Bardengau on the banks of the Elbe.[7] Scoringa was ruled by the Vandals and their chieftains, the brothers Ambri and Assi, who granted the Winnili a choice between tribute or war.
The Winnili were young and brave and refused to pay tribute, saying "It is better to maintain liberty by arms than to stain it by the payment of tribute."[8] The Vandals prepared for war and consulted Godan (the god Odin[2]), who answered that he would give the victory to those whom he would see first at sunrise.[9] The Winnili were fewer in number[8] and Gambara sought help from Frea (the goddessFrigg[2]), who advised that all Winnili women should tie their hair in front of their faces like beards and march in line with their husbands. So Godan spotted the Winnili first and asked, "Who are these long-beards?," and Frea replied, "My lord, thou hast given them the name, now give them also the victory."[10] From that moment onwards, the Winnili were known as the Longbeards (Latinised as Langobardi, Italianised as Lombardi, and Anglicized as Lombards).

So Langobardi were not calling themselves Langobardi. It was the name given to them by the Norse. They called themselves Winnili unless even this was a name given to them by others. Langobardi means the ones with long beards (dugobradi in Serbian). These long bearded people were great warriors, and really liked the fight and battle. They eventually lead the tribal federation which invaded Italy and established the Lombard kingdom of Italy.

In the 1st century AD Longobardi formed part of the Suebi, in northwestern Germany. By the end of the 5th century they had moved into the area roughly coinciding with modern Austria north of the Danube river, where they subdued the Herulsand later fought frequent wars with the Gepids. The Lombard king Audoin defeated the Gepid leader Thurisind in 551 or 552; his successor Alboin eventually destroyed the Gepids at the Battle of Asfeld in 567.
Following this victory, Alboin decided to lead his people to Italy, which had become severely depopulated after the longGothic War (535–554) between the Byzantine Empire and the Ostrogothic Kingdom there. The Lombards were joined by numerous Saxons, Heruls, Gepids, Bulgars, Thuringians, and Ostrogoths, and their invasion of Italy was almost unopposed. By late 569 they had conquered all the principal cities north of the Po River except Pavia, which fell in 572. At the same time, they occupied areas in central and southern Italy. They established a Lombard Kingdom in Italy, later named Regnum Italicum ("Kingdom of Italy"), which reached its zenith under the 8th-century ruler Liutprand. In 774, the Kingdom was conquered by the Frankish King Charlemagne and integrated into his Empire. However, Lombard nobles continued to rule parts of the Italian peninsula well into the 11th century when they were conquered by the Normans and added to their County of Sicily. Their legacy is apparent in the regional appellation, Lombardy.

Romans say that Longobards in the first century AD lived next door to Chauci.

The first mention of the Lombards occurred between AD 9 and 16, by the Roman court historian Velleius Paterculus, who accompanied a Roman expedition as prefect of the cavalry.[17] Paterculus says that under Tiberius the "power of the Langobardi was broken, a race surpassing even the Germans in savagery".[18]
From the combined testimony of Strabo (AD 20) and Tacitus (AD 117), the Lombards dwelt near the mouth of the Elbe shortly after the beginning of the Christian era, next to the Chauci.[17] Strabo states that the Lombards dwelt on both sides of the Elbe.[19] He treats them as a branch of the Suebi.

Now I have a question: what is the chance that such warrior tribe would not join its neighbours Chauci and Menapii in an invasion of England and Ireland?


Back to the origin of the Anglo Saxon race:

The customs relating to the widow's dower that prevailed in South Westmoreland and North Lancashire are
varied. In the Barony of Kendal the widow of a customary tenant was entitled to the whole of her husband's
customary estate during widowhood. 2 In some other parts of the south of Westmoreland she received half
the estate. Similarly, at Much Urswick, Kirkby Irleth, Lowick, 3 and Nevill Hall in Furness, the widow was
entitled to half the estate during widowhood. By the old common law of the country she was entitled to only
a third share, and at Clitheroe to a fourth, as was the custom among the ancient Lombards. The Kendal
dower custom is the same as existed so largely in Sussex and on manors elsewhere, as in the vale of Taunton,
where junior inheritance prevailed. The half dower custom is the same as that of Kent, and points to settle-
ments of Goths or Jutes.

So there are customs in certain parts of England which can be attributed to the Longobard immigrants among the Saxons. If Longobards can be found in England there is a good chance that they also ended up in east Ireland with the rest of the Laigin.




Back to Labraid Loingsech. Is this just another bastardized non Gaelic name which was changed by later scribes and myth makers to fit the Gaelic language? Is it possible that Labraid is Langobard? And is it possible that Loingsech comes from the Lombard’s weapon a long knife known as scramasax or long seax or phonetically longsek. So the name of the leader of the Laigin becomes Langobard Longsek?


Is there any indication that this could be in any way possible?


Maybe.


In Irish word “braid” (pronounced brad) means neck, throat, bust. This is exactly where beard is. In Serbian “brada” means beard and if we wanted to make a name out of long beard it would be dugobrad, where dugo is long and brad is beard.


Now we have lango bard, lango b(a)rad, lango baraid….


Also we have this:

In early medieval Ireland beards were also an indicator of class distinction (Fig. 2).Aristocratic men were clean-shaven or had both a beard and a moustache but never a moustache alone. Soldiers and lower-class males wore a long moustache but no beard (Dunlevy 1999, 21).

http://www.academia.edu/466184/Beards_an_archaeological_and_historical_overview


So in Ireland the long beard was reserved for aristocracy. Is this the memory of the old ruling military elite with long beards?

Laigin ruled at Ailinne [Knochawlin], the largest hill-fort in Ireland, near Kilcullen, Co. Kildare, reigned:
25BC-AD25 X. Ugaine "Mor" [Hugony "The Great"], High-King of Ireland, [son of Eochaid "Buadhach" [Eochu "Buadh"], King of Laigin [Leinster], identified with Echu Mac Earc, the last King of the Fir-Bolg, descendant of Dela, first King of the Fir-Bolg, descendant of Beli of Tyre]. He was a popularly claimed ancestor of Irish Royalty in medieval times. He, according to Irish Mythology, engaged in foreign conquests, and extended his dominion over Britain and Gaul. A story now lost has him campaigning in Italy: if so, it would have been as the captain of a company of Irish mercenaries in Roman military service as irregulars or foreign auxiliaries. His wife, called "Cesair [III]", the third person in Celtic Mythology to have that name, is called the daughter of the King of the Franks, who, at the time would have been the Roman Governor of Gaul, namely, […]oroix, a native Gallic prince in Roman service. On his death claimants to the high-kingship arose at Tara, Navan Fort, as well as Ailinne, which sparked civil wars among the claimants.
date unk X. Loeguire "Lorc", son, King of Laigin/Leinster
date unk X. Cobhthach "Caelbreagh", bro, usurper
date unk X. Labraid "Loingsech" [son of Oilioll "Aine", son of Loeguire "Lorc"], restored to his grand-father's throne with the help of foreign mercenaries, the Gauls (Gaels).

http://www.angelfire.com/ego/et_deo/irishkings.wps.htm


Grandfather of Labraid Loingsech campaigned in Italy. Is this a Longobard campaign of the 6th century of some earlier one maybe the Vandal one?


Scramasax or Seax brings us to this:

Seax (also sax, sæx, sex, latinized sachsum) is an Old English word for "knife".[1] In modern archaeology, the term seax is used specifically for a type of sword or dagger typical of the Germanic peoples - especially the Saxons, whose tribal name derives from the weapon[2] - during the Migration period and the Early Middle Ages.
In heraldry, the seax is a charge consisting of a curved sword with a notched blade, appearing, for example, in the coats of arms ofEssex and the former Middlesex.[3]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seax


So if Saxon or Sekson is a sek (long blade) man then German or Garman as a spear man doesn't sound that crazy? What this brings us to is that neither of the two main “national” or “ethnic” names for Germanic people have nothing to do with race. These names distinguish people by the type of weapon they use. So who were Gar-men and Sek-men ethnically? Maybe we will be able to answer this and maybe not, but it’s definitely an interesting question.


Wikipedia says that seax is “a type of sword or dagger typical of the Germanic peoples - especially the Saxons”. Wikipedia obviously means ethnicity when it says “Germanic”. But long knife was also used by the Irish and by the Slavs.


Now if we look at Irish long knives, Anglo-Saxon long knives, Scandinavian (Norse) long knives, Lombard long knives and Slavic long knives we find something very interesting. Irish long knives most closely resemble the Lombard ones and Slavic ones.


Here is an example of an Irish long knife:




the man who made this replica drew his inspiration for this knife from his research on Irish fighting knives in the National Museum of Ireland and from his research on the Viking scramasax.


http://www.myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=1891

Here is an example of a Slavic long knife. Look at the shape of the blade and how much it looks like the Slavic one:




Theslavic sheaths does not look like the gotlandic ones at all! My maininterest is scandinavian 8-10th century and I have studied over 35seaxes with sheaths from Gotland In person and none look like this.


http://www.britishblades.com/forums...Slavic-style-scabbards-)&highlight=slavic+sax


Here is a Longbard long knife.





http://www.imperialweapons.com/DR/IP-131-2.html


Here are an Anglo Saxon and Norse long knife:




I am sorry the stupid editor has mangled my pictures. i will here add urls to pictures instead.

Viking seax

https://www.google.ie/search?q=viki...6oDIAQ&sqi=2&ved=0CAcQ_AUoAQ&biw=1280&bih=642

Anglo Saxon seax

https://www.google.ie/search?q=viki...80,d.ZGU&fp=743896c454d8bdec&biw=1280&bih=642



The difference is striking. Anglo Saxon and Norse long knives belong to one type and Slavic, Longobard and Irish to another??? Can we judge the ethnicity by the shape of the long knife? I don’t know, but this is definitely a question worth exploring.

 

[dublin]

While we are talking about the long knives, it is worth exploring the name of this weapon:

Old English seax,sax and Old Frisian sax are identical with Old Saxon and Old High German saks,all from a Common Germanic*sahsom froma root*sah,*sag-"tocut" (also insaw,from aPIE root*sek-).The term scramaseax,scramsaxlit."wounding-knife" is sometimes used for disambiguation, even though it is not attested in Old English, but taken from an occurrence of scramasax in Gregory of Tours'History of the Franks.[4]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seax




So the wiki says it is an old German root *sah,*sag-"to cut and then quickly adds that it all comes from the PIE root sek.


http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Appendix:Proto-Indo-European/sek-


Interestingly enough wiki completely misses to mention Gaelic as a language that has anything to do with Seax or verb sek.
I will now try to fix this and try to expand this etymology with a very interesting word cluster which I found in south Slavic languages and in Irish.


I will start with this citation from a medieval French manuscript:

The Gaelic skills of hand-to-hand and their style of fighting was not lost, as a French observer Boullaye le Gouz comments in 1644: "The Irish carry a scquine (scian - knife) or Turkish dagger, which they dart (throw) very adroitly at 15 paces distance; and have this advantage, that if they remain masters of the field of battle there remains no enemy, and if they are routed, they fly in such a manner that it is impossible to catch them. [A common complaint by English Tudor soldiers] I have seen an Irishman with ease accomplish 25 miles a day. They march to battle with the bagpipes instead of fifes, butt hey have few drums and they use the musket and cannon as we do. They are better soldiers abroad than at home."

http://home.earthlink.net/~rggsibiba/html/galloglas/gallohist.html


The Irish long knife is called Scean or Scian. What is interesting about this word is that it is just one of a cluster of Irish words with the root sc which all somehow relate to blades, making blades, using blades and consequences of using blades. I will here just list few representative ones; you can consult the dictionary for more:


S(e)caineamh– shingly
S(e)clata– slate
S(e)caineadh-crack, split
S(e)ceallog– chip, thin slice
S(e)cealla– shale, flake
S(e)cablail– chisel work
S(e)caid– husks
S(e)caineach– thin, cracked
S(e)cean,s(e)cian (pronounced shkian) – knife
S(e)cean– crack, split, sever


Now these words, I believe, have potentially root in a stone age. When you look at them they basically describe making of a stone blade from a stone. You get a shingly stone, slate, you chip it, split it until you get a sharp blade. Husks and chips fall off in the process. Then you can use it to cut, split and sever…


From the analysis of the word development from Ogham Irish to modern Irish, we see that the language has lost a lot of vowels. To the above words could have had a vowel between Sc root and this is why I inserted the alternative “(e)” which doesn’t exist in modern Gaelic. We also see insertion of vowels in the south Slavic languages as the words traveled from the Baltic to the Balkans in the early medieval time. In some dialects of the south Slavic languages you can still find the original vowless versions of the words. So I am not sure about the above vowel insertion. Also you will see in related south Slavic words that we find both sk and sek roots.




Here is the corresponding south Slavic word cluster. You will notice that it is a lot bigger and wider than the Irish one, but it covers the same word range needed to describe making of a stone blade from as tone as well as all the metal blades and their usage. The fact that in the south Slavic languages we find all the words connected with the stone blades as well as the metal blades with the same root shouldn't surprise us. It was the Balkans, more precisely within the territory of today’s Serbia that metal blades were produced for the first time in copper, bronze and iron. It is fitting to presume that whoever made these metal blades used the same word s(e)k as the root word for both stone and metal blades. If this is so, what does this tell us about the age of these words?




Školjka– shell. Shells are sharp and could have been what gave people idea to create first blades
Skriljac– slate. This stone can be easily chipped and was used for weapon blades.
Skresati– from kresati. Kresati means to hit one thing with another, so that the hitting thing slides of the side of the thing being hit. The word is used to describe hitting a stone with a stone to chip them or to make fire and for cutting branches of a log, basically to chip or to trim. Skresati means to actually chip a bit of or to cut a brunch off, to separate bits.
Skalja– small thin chips of stone or wood
Sek(sometimes pronounced as sik or sk)– root word meaning to cut but also a blade. Word seći(to cut) comes from sekti.
Sečivo(pronounced sechivo) – blade
Sekira(sikira, skira) – axe
Sekare(škare pronounces shkare) – scissors
Sekia(sekian) – knife. This word is now preserved in Bosnian slang word for knife “ćakija” (sekia). This word can also be deduced from a word škia (pronounced shkia) which is a dinaric dialect word which means a thin hand sliced tobacco.
Sekač.– a one sided blade
Skiljiti– to squint, to make your eyes look like as if they were two cuts.
Skija– a blade on a sled, and later a ski.
Sekutić – front tooth
Usek,zasek – a cut
Sek– a log house where logs, which are also called sek, are connected by interlocking cuts made at their ends.
Seknuti– to strike or hit suddenly
Skratiti– to cut down to cut short
Skrvaviti– to make bloody
Skloca– foldup knife
Škljocati- to make a noise by closing something sharp like teeth or scissors.
Škrgutati– to grind teeth
Škopiti– to castrate, to cut balls off.
Skulj– a castrated ram
Škrip– a cut, a narrow space




This word cluster is possibly based on an onomatopoeic root “sk” which potentially makes it very old. The sound which a blade makes when pulled across something in order to cut it is “sssssssk”. When you cut something off with a sudden hit of blade sound shortens to tsk or tsak. I will leave this here and hopefully someone else will pick it up and cover it in more detail.




What I find is very very interesting is word for scissors. Scissors are a complicated implement and who ever made them first gave them the name that stuck among the people who used them first, which probably related people who were living close together.


In Russian and all central and east Slavic languages (including Bulgarian and Macedonian) it is a form of word nožnice.
In Scandinavian languages it is some form of saks.
In French English and Irish it is ciseaux, scissors, siosúr.
In Greek and Latin it is ψαλίδιand axicia
In Italian it is forbici.


But in Serbian, Croatian, Bosnian, Slovenian, Dutch, German and Latvian it is škare,schaar, schere, š??res…So what is the connection between these people? Is south Baltic the link again, more precisely Elbe valley?


We know that the root word is sekare which comes from south Slavic sek root. Because when we have a look at the word for cut and blade in all these languages we get this:


To cut


German - geschnitten (is this actually sekniten)
Dutch– snijden (this is probably from the above root sekniten)
Latvian– samazin?t
Serbian,Croatian, Bosnian, Slovenian – Seći(Sekti)


Blade


German– Schneide (Sekniede?), Klinge
Dutch– mes
Latvian– asmens


As part of this analysis I have to mention one more word: to slaughter,to kill a living thing using a sharp blade. We need to investigate this word because after all, blades are made for slaughter more than anything else.




In south Slavic languages a word for to slaughter or related to slaughter are:


Klati– to slaughter
Klanje– slaughter
Klan– being slaughtered
Koljač– the one that slaughters
Saklan(zaklan) – slaughtered
Kljakav– someone who is missing a limb due to its being cut off.
Kljuse– a horse which is too old to be useful and which needs to be slaughtered, killed (kolje se)
Kljusav– ready to be slaughtered, killed
Koljivo– a ceremonial meal made from cooked wheat eaten at Serbian “Slava”celebration. Slava is today a family patron saint day celebration,but originally it was a clan ancestral cult celebration. Each family had its own deity as a clan progenitor, and that deity was celebrated as the father of the clan. Originally human sacrifices were made even down to medieval times and maybe even later. In case of Dabog or Hromi Daba, the main deity of all Serbian clans, even first born children were sacrificed. Animals such as lambs, goats and bulls were also sacrificed and are still to this day. Animal sacrifices and particularly human sacrifices sharply distinguished Serbs and other western Slavs from eastern Slavs. During slavisation of the Serbs,blood sacrifices were replaced with cooked wheat but the name remained: koljivo (what was slaughtered as a sacrifice).


Word klati is an onomatopoeic word based on the root “kl” which potentially makes it very old as well.


“kl”or “gl” is, I believe, one of the oldest word roots which is related to things coming out of a throat. It is particularly a sound of choking of gasping for air while something liquid is filling your throat and lungs, like blood when an animal or a person is being slaughtered. If you have ever slaughtered anything you will not easily forget that sound. The sound is kljkljklj….


In south Slavic languages we have this word


Krkljati– gargle
Kuljati– to gush, as in puking or bleeding when a throat is slit, or bleeding when a body is sliced open with a blade, or a head crushed with an axe blow.
kljukati - continuously stuff something down someones throat.

It is interesting how much this klati sound like kill. In wiktionary we find this as etymology of kill:

From Middle English killen,kyllen,cüllen(“to strike, beat, cut”),possibly a variant of Old English cwellan(“tokill, murder, execute”)(seequell),or from Old Norse kolla(“tohit on the head, harm”)(compare Norwegian kylla(“topoll”),Middle Dutch kollen(“toknock down”),Icelandic kollur(“top,head”),see coll,cole).Compare also Middle Dutch killen,kellen(“tokill”),Middle Low German killen(“toache strongly, to cause one great pain”),Middle High German kellen. Cognate with Albanian qëlloj(“tohit, strike”).

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/kill


I think these words are related, but I will leave this to others to investigate further.




Now we also have word klanac which means a gorge, a deep narrow valley out of which a river flows. These valleys are deep cuts in hills and mountains which look as if they were made by a gods using giant blade. Out of these earth wounds, water, the blood of the earth gushes out.
This is incredible descriptive naming of geological formations, as klanac does also resemble a deep cut made by a blade in a flesh, especially in a neck while slaughtering out of which blood starts gushing out.If you have ever slaughtered anything or anyone you will know what I am talking about.
So klanac is a place where mother earth has been slaughtered. How old could this word possible be?


Now in Gaelic we have this word: Glen. The word is Goidelic : gleann in Scottish and Irish Gaelic, glion in Manx.In Manx,glan is also to be found meaning glen. It is cognate with Welsh glynl.


Wiktionary says that it means: A secluded and narrow valley;a dale;a depression between hills.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glen
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/glen


we also have word claon: inclining, squint, oblique, Irish claon,Old Irish clóin:*kloino-;Latincli@-no,accli@-nis,leaning, English incline;Greek@Gklínw(@Gilong),incline; English lean;Lithuanian szlë/ti,incline; Sanskrit çrayati(do.).


So here we have a link between to slaughter, to cut a slit, to squint,klanac (glen, gorge)…


Also it is interesting that in Germanic languages the word for slaughter has the same root (s-kl) as in south Slavic languages (Schlachten,s(e)klahten), but in east Slavic and central Slavic languages it is based on the root “rez” which also means to cut in Slavic languages. This again shows the affinity of south Slavic languages with Germanic languages. This also shows that south Slavic languages kept their old word for cut (sek) and also absorbed the new Slavic word (rez).

 

[dublin]

The title of this post was Long beards, long ears, long blades and long spears. We have seen long beards, long blades and long spears. What about long ears? Let’s go back to Labraid Loingsech.

The story is told, similar to a legend of the Greek king Midas,that Labraid had horse's ears, something he was concerned to keep quiet. He had his hair cut once a year, and the barber, who was chosen by lot, was immediately put to death. A widow, hearing that her only son had been chosen to cut the king's hair, begged the king not to kill him, and he agreed, so long as the barber kept his secret. The burden of the secret was so heavy that the barber fell ill. A druid advised him to go to a crossroads and tell his secret to the first tree he came to, and he would be relieved of his burden and be well again. He told the secret to a large willow.Soon after this, however, Craiftine broke his harp, and made a new one out of the very willow the barber had told his secret to.Whenever he played it, the harp sang "Labraid Lorc has horse'sears". Labraid repented of all the barbers he had put to death and admitted his secret.[4]

This is a very interesting story and quite unusual. Let’s see if we can find similar legends anywhere else:
1. Midas(Greece).
2. Tarkasnawa (luw."ass") - also known as the false reading Tarkondemos-was a king of the Hittite vassal state Mira in the west of present-day Turkey. He probably reigned in the time of the Great King Tudhalija IV in the 13 th Century BC
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tarkasnawa
http://www.britishmuseum.org/resear...object_details.aspx?objectId=1430426&partId=1
3. The Goat's Ears of the Emperor Trojan (Serbia).
4. The King with the Horse's Ears (Ireland), Laigin story about Labhradh Loingseach.
5. March's Ears (Wales). This story comes from Llyn peninsula. Now this is the same Lleynw whose name is thought to be of Irish origin, and to have the same root –Laigin (Laighin) in Irish –as the word Leinster and which also occurs in Porth Dinllaen on the north coast and which was a Laigin colony in wales.
6. In pre-Islamic legend of Central Asia, the king of the Ossounes of the Yenisei basin had donkey's ears. He would hide them, and order each of his barbers killed to hide his secret. The last barber among his people was counselled to whisper the heavy secret into a well after sundown, but he didn't cover the well afterwards. The well water rose and flooded the kingdom, creating the waters of Lake Issyk-Kul. (Based on available data the bronze age civilsation that existed here dates to 2500 years ago.)
http://en.rian.ru/analysis/20071227/94372640.html
http://www.pitt.edu/~dash/type0782.html


Lets see what we can find about these stories and see if we can propose some chronology and direction of spreading of this unusual myth:

Sarah Morris demonstrated (Morris 2004) that donkeys' ears (my comment:donkeys or goats ears???) were a Bronze Age royal attribute, borne by King Tarkasnawa (Greek Tarkondemos) ofMira,on a seal inscribed in both Hittite cuneiform and Luwian hieroglyphs:in this connection, the myth would appear for Greeks, to justify the exotic attribute.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Midas




Let’s see what we can find about king Midas:

The King Midas who ruled Phrygia in the late 8th century BC is known from Greek and Assyrian sources. According to the former, he married a Greek princess, Damodice daughter of Agamemnon of Cyme, Aeolia, and traded extensively with the Greeks. Some historians believe this Midas donated the throne that Herodotus says was offered to the Oracleof Delphi by"Midas son of Gordias" (see above). Assyrian tablets from the reign of SargonII record attacks by a "Mita", king of the Mushki,against Assyria's eastern Anatolian provinces. Some historians believe Assyrian texts called this Midas king of the "Mushki"because he had subjected the eastern Anatolian people of that name and incorporated them into his army. Greek sources including Strabo[23] say that Midas committed suicide by drinking bulls' blood during an attack by the Cimmerians, which Eusebius dated to around 695 BC and JuliusAfricanus to around 676 BC. Archeology has confirmed that Gordium was destroyed and burned around that time.[24]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Midas


Now when we look at who Mushki are we get this:

The Mushki (Muški; Georgian, Mushkebi) were an Iron Age people of Anatolia, known from Assyrian sources.They do not appear in Hittite records.[1]Several authors have connected them with the Moschoi (Μόσχοι)of Greek sources and the Georgian tribe of the Meskhi. Josephus Flavius identified the Moschoi with the Biblical Meshech. Two different groups are called Muški in the Assyrian sources (Diakonoff 1984:115),one from the 12th to 9th centuries, located near the confluence of the Arsanias and the Euphrates ("Eastern Mushki"), and the other in the 8th to 7th centuries, located in Cappadocia and Cilicia ("Western Mushki"). Assyrian sources identify the Western Mushki with the Phrygians,while Greek sources clearly distinguish between Phrygians and Moschoi.
Georgian historians believe the Massagetae is another name for the Mushki, in contradiction to prevailing opinion which places the Massagetae in Central Asia. They base their argument on statements by Herodotus that the Massagetae lived "beyond the Araxes"(1.201) and that "after crossing the Araxes, Cyrus was sleeping on the territory of the Massagetae" (1.209), while rejecting as a mistake a third statement by Herodotus that "on the west the Caspian is bounded by the Caucasus; eastwards lies an immense tract of flat country ... the greater part of this region is occupied by the Massagetae" (1.204). Georgian historians also point to the similarity of the names Massagetae, Mtskheta and Meskheti, and to the lack of archeological evidence for a Massagetae state in Central Asia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mushki

The ancient tribes of Meskhi (or Moschi) and Mosiniks are the first known inhabitants of the area of modern Samtskhe-Javakheti region. Some scholars credit the Mosiniks (or Mossynoeci) with the invention of iron metallurgy. From the 2nd millennium to the 4th century BC, Meskheti was believed to be part of the Kingdom of Diaokhi, in the 4th century BC to the 6th century AD part of the Kingdom of Iberia.From the 10th to the 15th century it was part of the united Georgian Kingdom.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meskhetians


This is very interesting about the Georgian Mushki. Some scholars are crediting these Mushki with the invention of Iron. This fits perfectly with the expansion of the Iron age people from the Balkans who under the name Mushki spread around the world conquering countries all the way to central Asia.




Now this is very interesting. King Mita (still a very common name in the Balkans among the south Slavs and Bulgarians also found in form Mitar and Mitra) was the leader of Muški Mushki an Iron Age people of Anatolia…I couldn’t find any proposed etymology of Muški,so I will propose my own: in Serbian and other Slavic languages, word for man is muž. But muž can also mean husband and lord. Word for manly is Muški,but Muški can also mean men, or lords…when we look at the time of his reign,we see that it falls into 8th century BC well after the iron was invented in the Balkans. So was Mita leading the Mushki (men) from Balkans? He was the king of Phrygians. Is there any indication that these Phrygian Mushki could be from the Balkans? There is:

Inscriptions found at Gordium make clear that Phrygians spoke an Indo-European language with at least some vocabulary similar to Greek,and clearly not belonging to the family of Anatolian languages spoken by most of Phrygia's neighbors.[1][2]According to one of the so-called Homeric Hymns, the Phrygian language was not mutually intelligible with Trojan.[3]
According to ancient tradition among Greek historians, the Phrygians anciently migrated to Anatolia from the Balkans. Herodotus says the Phrygians were called Bryges when they lived in Europe.[4]He and other Greek writers also recorded legends about King Midas that associated him with or put his origin in Macedonia;Herodotus for example says a wild rose garden in Macedonia was named after Midas.[5] The Phrygians were also connected by some classical writers to the Mygdones, the name of two groups of people, one of which lived in northern Macedonia and another in Mysia.Likewise the Phrygians have been identified with the Bebryces,a people said to have warred with Mysia before theTrojan War and who had a king named Mygdon at roughly the same time as the Phrygians were said to have had a king named Mygdon. The classical historian Strabo groups Phrygians, Mygdones, Mysians, Bebryces and Bithynians together as peoples that migrated to Anatolia from the Balkans.[6]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phrygia


So if Phrygians came from the north Balkans, then possibly the Serbian story about King Trajan and his goat ears could be the original myth from which all the other ones have been developed. The story about king Trajan comes from the area of the Djerdap gorge, the biggest gorge in Europe, the place where mighty Danube, managed to burst through Carpathian mountains and thus empty the ancient Pannonian sea.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pannonian_Sea


Thus Danube was a sea and a river, the ancient Oceanos potamos of the old Gaia. The Djerdap gorge is the place where we find the most advanced Mesolithic civilization,Lepenski Vir.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lepenski_Vir


This is also the area where we later find Vinca civilization which invented Copper and Bronze 7000 years ago. Just to the south is Hisar, where first iron and industrial iron production sites were found that date to 1400 BC, much earlier than the Hittite finds. We know that the Vinca copper culture spread from the Balkans to Anatolia. I believe that so far still unidentified(proto Illyrian) Iron culture also spread from the Balkans to Anatolia. And they took with them their story about king Trajan and his long Ears. I know that some people will argue that the story is originally Phrygian and that it originates in Anatolia. I would like to ask then, how is it possible that such an obscure story be adopted by the Irish, Serbs and Ossounes,but no one else in between, particularly in greco roman Europe??? Do the Irish and the Serbs have weird taste for legends, and have somehow picked this weird story and made it an obligatory material for the around the fire story telling time, until it became a folk legend?It makes no sense. The only logical explanation is that the story spread from the Carpathian region of Serbia. And then fallowed the Frigians. Now who were these Phrygians? This is what etymology dictionary says:

Phrygian- "native of Phrygia,"region in ancient Asia Minor; Phrygian mode in ancient Greek music theory was held to be "of a warlike character."

Is it possible that original Phrygia was not in Asia Minor, but in the north east Balkans, and that the name was brought to Asia Minor during the Phrygian Migrations? This happens all the time. Migrants give their new countries and towns the names from the “old country”. Is it possible that there are many Phrygias? Like Friesland,the area from Jutland to the west, from which our friends Laigin came from? Or this mysterious Island also called Frisland:

Frisland,also called Frischlant, Friesland, Freezeland, Frislandia,or Fixland,is a mythical island that appeared on virtually all of the maps of the North Atlantic from the 1560s through the 1660s. It is not to be confused with the similarly named Friesland in the Netherlands.
It originally referred to Iceland ("Freezeland"),but after the Zeno Map (1558)placed it as an entirely separate island south (or occasionally south-west) of Iceland, it appeared that way on maps for the next 100 years. Its existence was given currency in manuscript maps of the 1560s by the Maggiolo family of Genoa and was accepted by Mercator and Jodocus Hondius. Some early maps by Willem Blaeu,such as his 1617 map of Europe, omit it, but it reappears on his 1630 world map as one of many islands shown off the eastern coast of Labrador which was then believed to extend to within a few hundred miles of Scotland. Among its last appearances is in a 1652 world map by Visscher,[contradiction] largely copied from that of Blaeu.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frisland


Is this Frisland island actually Ireland of the Laigin?


Frisland was shown as a roughly rectangular island with three triangular promontories on its western coast.


Here is the picture of Frisland island:


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Frisland_Mercator.jpg




Here is map of Ireland:


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Keltoi_Tribes.PNG


Do you see anything similar?Interesting in any case...




Now in England and Ireland we find Brigantes.


Is it possible that Phrygians, Frisians and Brigantes are the same People? I mean how many people are called anything similar? And isn't is interesting that it is exactly these pople that have preserved the story of the king with long ears, which originally came from the old Phrygia in the Balkans?


And what could the name of this nation mean? Is it possible that Phrygians were actually Brigians? In one of the south Slavic dialects the word for a man made hill is Brig. Do you remember the kingdom of Brega, the kingdom of tumuluses in Ireland? Do you remember Tabor Breg, the main tumulus center of Ireland? Are Brigi actually Bregi? Are Brigantes actually Bregantes?Are Phrigians actually Brigians actually Bregians people of the Breg, Tumulus?


By the way the name Trajan is still used in eastern Serbia as a personal name. And the story about king Trajan's ears is not the only story about king Trajan. There is another one in which the king Trojan, the king of some old city located somewhere in Serbia, goes every night across river Danube, where he visits his mistress. But he has to make sure to return back before the sunrises, or else he will melt.


http://mirjanadetelic.com/leksikon/gradovi/gradout.php?id=1986&slovo=T&str=1


We find very similar legend in Russia about the Slavic god Hors:

Vseslav the prince judged men; as prince, he ruled towns; but at night he prowled in the guise of a wolf. From Kiev, prowling, he reached,before the cocks crew, Tmutorokan. The path of great Hors, as a wolf,prowling, he crossed.
In other words, prince Vseslav reached Tmutorokan before dawn, thus crossing the path of Hors, the Sun. In the mythical view of the world, the Sun has to pass through the underworld during the night tor each the eastern horizon by the dawn. This, and the fact that prince Vseslav is transformed into a wolf during the night, while "crossing the path of Hors", draws a very interesting parallel with the Serbian Dabog, who, as stated already, was believed to be a lame"wolf shepherd" who rules over the underworld. Of particular interest is the fact that Serbian folk accounts describe him as being lame; lameness was a standing attribute of Greek Hephaestus, whom, as we have seen, the Hypatian Codex compared with Slavic smith-god Svarog, father of Dažbog. (In fact, most of Indo-European smith-gods were lame; the reason for this was most likely arsenicosis,low levels of arsenic poisoning,resulting in lameness and skin cancers.Arsenic was added to bronze to harden it and most smiths of the Bronze Age would have suffered from chronic workplace poisoning.) Serbian Dabog, being lord of underworld, was also associated with precious metals, and sometimes was said to have a silver beard.
So here we have two stories with the same theme. One story is about Dabog, Hromi Daba,Crom Dubh, The father and the king ancestral king of the Serbs and the another is about king Trojan? Are these two characters one and the same?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dažbog




Lets see if we can find out what name Trajan means. We can find the answer in Irish:


Here is another interesting word cluster from Irish language:


tré- triad - trojstvo
tréad - flock, heard, congregation - stado,pastva
tréadach - pastoral - cobanski, nomadski
tréadai -shepard, pastor - cobanin, pastor
tréadaioch - hearding -skupljati uterivati stado
treabhcas - tribe - pleme
treabhann -tribune, leader - tribun, lider, bodja
treablaht - household,family - domacinstvo, porodica
treabh - plough - plug
treibh -house, homestead, tribe, race - kuca, domacinstvo, pleme, rasa
trea- spear - koplje
trean - warior- ratnik. So Trean or Trajan is awarrior.
treas- battle - bitka
treasair - conquer - osvojiti
treis - strong,in power - jak, na vlasti
triath - lord, prince - gospodar, princ




This is an incredibly important cluster. I have never seen any other word group that describes iron age society in a better way. And it shows us that Trean or Trojan means warrior. So Is Trea Treas, or Troja, Troas the land of warriors? And if so was the original Troja in the Balkans in the second millennium BC and that Troas in Anatolia is the second Troja ? I think that there are things that point to exactly that.


We know that Hittites, Phrygians and ancient people of the iron age Balkans built tumuluses. Serbian historian Pesic, who first proposed the idea of the Vinca script, and Russian paleography experts have discovered an ancient monogram in Vinca material which was also found in Sarmatian material. The monogram was identified as the symbol of an ancient Pelasgian deity Domatrios, the oldest male deity of Europe. (I would be very grateful to anyone for more material on Domatrios, as i could not find anything on the net). Pesic says that that the meaning of the name of this deity is unclear…


http://www.srpskadijaspora.info/vest.asp?id=4917


Let’s go back to Irish and see if it can help:


dumha– tumulus. In Slavic languages dumati means to think but also to hold meetings. In Russian duma is parliament, and we know from Irish legends, that parliaments were held on top of tumuluses.


domatrios= duma triath (tré)= lord (triad, trinity) of the tumulus…
This brigns us straight back to Ireland and deity Crom Dubh whose one of the names is the head of the mound (tumulus) or lord of the mound(tumulus). And here is the head which is said to represent Crom Dubh.It is the trefaced stone idol of Triglav:




http://www.museum.ie/en/list/artefacts.aspx?article=c9f1d3b1-4474-41ef-a04e-09a6a825e141




By the way there are several mountains in the Balkans named Trojan. Is it because Trojan was the same as Triglav?


There is also a folk dance in Serbia called trojanac.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u0uNU7s38oQ






One last thing. The area of the eastern Serbia from which the story of king Trajan's long ears is called Tribalian planes.

Triballian Plains, Tribalia or Lower Timok is the southern territory of the Timočka Krajina, between Yantra river and Morava river.Its name is derived from the Paleo-Balkan tribe of Triballi who lived in the region.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triballi


Welcome to the rabbit hole…

 

[inver2b1]

Rabbit hole?

 

[MOESAN]

concerning the respective place of adjective (epithete)and noun we have to be careful:
it seems Slavs and Germanics and Indo-Iranians placed the adjective before the noun and keep doing it (for greek I'm not sure but I believe it is the same: YETOS could answer me)- in romance and celtic languages, the adjective is placed after the noun - (in french, the adjective before the noun is considered as a frankish influence, ture or wrong) but in OLD celtic names and OLD COMMON NOUNS, the adjective were before the noun, so we could consider the I-E celtic speakers at first placed their adejctives before the noun as did and do Germanics and Slavs - and the change of placing could be caused by the substrata in western Europe... difficult ot link it by force to the only Vinca culture
breton: newez-c'hanet = ganet a-newez (newborn) - meurvor, mor meur :(ocean) - dourgi = ki-dour (mink) - so, in breton and welsh: old compound nouns: adj+noun, recent compound nouns: noun+adj
SO: a pre-celtic population in Ireland (as everywhere in Western Europe, by the way): YES - linked to VINCA OR SOUTH-EAST-CENTRAL EUROPE: NO (not automatically)

 

[dublin]

hi Moesan

Sorry didn't have time to answer your questions earlier. let me try to answer few of them now:

I see no evident particuliar link between Ireland and Serbia, on or without a I-E link - as a whole, the serbian language doesn' t show numerous common words with irish, gaelic or not

I beg to differ on this. I believe that these two languages share many common words. And not just words but grammatical structures as well. I have just started, there is a lot more to come. And by the way i am not talking about celtic slavic links, or to be more precise slavic germanic language traits in Irish and other "celtic" lnaguages. I am talking about gaelic traits in Serbian and other south slavic languages which do not appear in other slavic or in some cases any other european language.

I found very confusing the term DUBLIN uses frequently : "South Baltic", mixing central europe ancient cultures with more northern and maritime cultures is explications

South Baltic was the maritime gateway of central Europe. All cultural imports found in Ireland were first found in central Europe, then in south Baltic, then in Ireland. this shows clear transfer path and connection between these regions. I see no problem here.

about the derived words from 'tuatha' (breton, welsh: 'tud' : "people", previously "race", "descendance", germanic 'theod' or something close to it) considered by him as scornful and the link he does with the Tuatha De Danan are of uncertain value for I think because 1) 'pobl', 'people'='folk', are words very often associated from one part to to the honoured nation and from another part to basic people, poor people, peasantry but also workers - by the ruling upper classes - it 's the same i french, where 'peuple' is an honorable word but where 'populaire' and 'populiste' are words of disdain, as 'vulgo' (french 'vulgaire': bad educated) in latin - Dublin could object: "why the term 'tuatha' was not used for other people?" it 's true; but other subalterne or inferior tribes in Ireland had other names, some in 'Fir ...' ("the men"), why not 'tuatha'? sothis argument is not stupid but it is weak, I think -

All i am saying is that Tuatha is a foreign word, not Gaelic and has negative characteristics associated with invading foreign non Gaelic force. The last word "tre" cluster is the Gaelic root for tribe. Now the fact that we find it in the Balkans at the time of king Mita and king Trean begs the question which one of the ancient people spoke Gaelic or some proto Gaelic language in the Balkans at that time? As i said before i don't believe that Serbs and Irish are the same people, just that they lived for a very long time together in a very distant past, and probably later as well. Trojans and Breges were allies but spoke mutually unintelligible languages??? Maybe the clue is here who knows?

Who were the Gaels and when they came???

This is indeed a million dollar question and one that i am trying to answer.

it seems Slavs and Germanics and Indo-Iranians placed the adjective before the noun and keep doing it (for greek I'm not sure but I believe it is the same: YETOS could answer me)- in romance and celtic languages, the adjective is placed after the noun - (in french, the adjective before the noun is considered as a frankish influence, ture or wrong) but in OLD celtic names and OLD COMMON NOUNS, the adjective were before the noun, so we could consider the I-E celtic speakers at first placed their adejctives before the noun as did and do Germanics and Slavs - and the change of placing could be caused by the substrata in western Europe.

And this supports my thesis that Slavic + Germanic languages of Central Europe are the true celtic languages. And that Gaels and the other atlantic people adopted words of this celtic language but kept their own gaelic grammar.

SO: a pre-celtic population in Ireland (as everywhere in Western Europe, by the way): YES - linked to VINCA OR SOUTH-EAST-CENTRAL EUROPE: NO (not automatically)

no not automatically. I have found so many answers that have opened so many more question...this is why i am presenting this here because i need help to investigate these things in detail. Everything i wrote here so far are just notes. This is like a sketch. I hope others will fill in the details...

Thank you and everyone else for being interested by the way.

 

[dublin]

While we are talking about same people appearing in multiple places at different times, and while we are talking about Mushki (Or Bregi), here is another tribe which seems to be fallowing them around all the way to Ireland: Iberians or Iverians or Iverni.


In his book "The origin of the Irish race" Mallory expressed skepticism regarding the book if invasions and as an example of how fanciful it is it quoted the part which tells us how the Nemedians sailed from the Caspian Sea all the way to Ireland. Mallory says that this being impossible, the chapter is and example of a later construction which was composed to link the Irish to Scythians and ultimately Christianity. In my opinion this exact chapter certifies that the book of Invasions was compiled from actual old histories. It was later doctored to suit changing ethnic, political and religious needs, but the original material was not an invention but a true description of events that actually happened.


It is very easy to sale from Caspian Sea to Ireland. You have to use the old Volga trading route up to the Baltic and then from the Baltic sea you follow the old Atlantean trading route down to Ireland and further down to Iberian peninsula. The old Caspian Sea - Baltic sea - Ireland trading route was last used by Varangians in the medieval time. I find it very interesting that in Gaelic texts there are so many references to Varangians, which according to the official history should never have set foot in Ireland...


Here you have a text about the Volga trade route:


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volga_trade_route


What i find very interesting is that along this trade route we find Iberians in Spain, Iverni or Iberni in Ireland and Iberians at the other end of the trade route in the area between the Black and Caspian sea.

Iberia (Georgian — იბერია, Latin: Iberia and Greek: Ἰβηρία), also known as Iveria (Georgian: ივერია), was a name given by the ancient Greeks and Romans to the ancient Georgian kingdom of Kartli[1] (4th century BC – 5th century AD), corresponding roughly to the eastern and southern parts of the present day Georgia.[2][3]


The area was inhabited in earliest times by several relative tribes of Tibareni, Mushki, Saspers, Gugars, Diaokhi, etc., collectively called Iberians (the Eastern Iberians) by ancient Greek (Herodotus, Strabo, etc.) and Roman authors. Iberians called their country Kartli after a mythic chief, Kartlos. One of the Iberian tribes of Mtskheta (the future capital of the Iberian kingdom) dominated the early Kingdom. The Mtskheta tribe was later ruled by a prince locally known as mamasakhlisi (“the father of the household” in Georgian).


The similarity of the name with the old inhabitants of the Iberian peninsula, the 'Western' Iberians, has led to an idea of ethnogenetical kinship between them and the people of Caucasian Iberia (called the 'Eastern' Iberians).
It has been advocated by various ancient and medieval authors, although they differed in approach to the problem of the initial place of their origin. The theory seems to have been popular in medieval Georgia. The prominent Georgian religious writer Giorgi Mthatzmindeli (George of Mt Athos) (1009–1065) writes about the wish of certain Georgian nobles to travel to the Iberian peninsula and visit the local Georgians of the West, as he called them

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caucasian_Iberia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caucasian_Iberians


So the at the beginning of the the Caspian - Atlantic trade rout we find Iberians ruled by Mushki. And Georgian old chronicles talk about both Atlantean Iberians and Caspian Iberians being of the same origin.


Now this Caspian Iberian culture is said to be most likely a mix of indigenous culture and (Indo) European culture.

The area was inhabited in earliest times by several related tribes in Kura-Araxes culture, collectively called Iberians (the Eastern Iberians) by ancient authors. Locals called their country Kartli after a mythic chief, Kartlos. The Moschi, mentioned by various classic historians, and their possible descendants, the Saspers (who were mentioned by Herodotus), may have played a crucial role in the consolidation of the tribes inhabiting the area. The Moschi had moved slowly to the northeast forming settlements as they traveled. The chief of these was Mtskheta, the future capital of the Iberian kingdom. The Mtskheta tribe was later ruled by a principal locally known as mamasakhlisi (“the father of the household” in Georgian). The medieval Georgian source Moktsevai Kartlisai (“Conversion of Kartli”) also speaks about Azo and his people, who came from Arian-Kartli – the initial home of the proto-Iberians, which had been under Achaemenid rule until the fall of the Persian Empire – to settle on the site where Mtskheta was to be founded. Another Georgian chronicle Kartlis Tskhovreba (“History of Kartli”) claims Azo to be an officer of Alexander’s, who massacred a local ruling family and conquered the area, until being defeated at the end of the 4th century BC by Prince Pharnavaz, who was at that time a local chief.
The story of Alexander’s invasion of Kartli, although entirely fictional, nevertheless reflects the establishment of Georgian monarchy in the Hellenistic period and the desire of later Georgian literati to connect this event to the celebrated conqueror.[7]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caucasian_Iberia

Arian Kartli (Aryan-Kartli; Georgian: არიან-ქართლი) was a country claimed by the medieval Georgian chronicle "The Conversion of Kartli" (მოქცევაჲ ქართლისაჲ, mokc’evay k’art’lisay) to be the earlier homeland of the Georgians of Kartli (Iberia, central and eastern Georgia).
The Georgian Chronicles relate the apocryphal story of Alexander the Great’s campaign into inner Georgia. Alexander reportedly brought Azoy (Azo), the son of the unnamed "king of Arian-Kartli", together with followers, to Mtskheta, principal city of Kartli, and charged him with the administration of Kartli in his absence. The 11th-century Georgian monk Arsen, the author of metaphrastical reduction of "The life of St. Nino" and tutor of King David IV of Georgia, comments on this passage: "We, Georgians, are descendants of the newcomers from Arian-Kartli, we speak their language and all the kings of Kartli are descendents of their kings".[1]
The identification of a polity medieval Georgian writers called Arian Kartli remains problematic. It seems to have preceded the Near Eastern conquests of Alexander the Great, but the precise location of this "kingdom", the date of its foundation, and the identity of its rulers cannot be determined by means of surviving documentary evidence. The word "Aryan" (Noble) comes from the ancient Indian language called Sanskrit suggesting the connection to Indo-Aryans. (Arian Kartli/Aryan Kartli) and Classical sources scholars have inferred that this land lay within the orbit of Achaemenid Empire. Herodotus' list of the Achaemenid provinces, which places the proto-Georgian tribes within the 13th and 19th satrapies, is significant in this regard.[2] These territories partially correspond to the historical Georgian southwest where a number of Georgian scholars, notably Giorgi Melikishvili, tend to place Aryan Kartli.
The early Georgian kingdom of Kartli/Iberia, which clearly emerges in historical accounts of Hellenistic period, seems to have shared the Iranian bonds of Arian Kartli.[2] Cyril Toumanoff equates the region with the Aranē (Greek: ‘Αράνη) of Ptolemy (V.6.18) and the Harrana of the Hittites.[3]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arian-Kartli


So where is this Arian land from which the future rulers of Iberians came and who were they? I propose Balkans and the Vincans during the copper and bronze age of the fourth and third millennium BC. Then Mushki the Iron age Balkan people during the early part of the first millennium BC.


The Caspian Iberians are linked to Kura–Araxes culture.

The Kura–Araxes culture or the early trans-Caucasian culture (Armenian: Քուռ-Արաքսի մշակույթ, Georgian: მტკვარ-არაქსის კულტურა), was a civilization that existed from 3400 BC until about 2000 BC,[1] which has traditionally been regarded as the date of its end, but it may have disappeared as early as 2600 or 2700 BC.[2] The earliest evidence for this culture is found on the Ararat plain; thence it spread to Georgia by 3000 BC (but never reaching Colchis[3]), and during the next millennium it proceeded westward to the Erzurum plain, southwest to Cilicia, and to the southeast into an area below the Urmia basin and Lake Van, and finally down to the borders of present day Syria. Altogether, the early Trans-Caucasian culture, at its greatest spread, enveloped a vast area approximately 1,000 km by 500 km.[4]




Economy


The economy was based on farming and livestock-raising (especially of cattle and sheep).[8] They grew grain and various orchard crops, and are known to have used implements to make flour. They raised cattle, sheep, goats, dogs, and in its later phases, horses (introduced around 3000 BCE, probably by Indo-European speaking tribes from the North).[8]
There is evidence of trade with Mesopotamia, as well as Asia Minor.[8] It is, however, considered above all to be indigenous to the Caucasus, and its major variants characterized (according to Caucasus historian Amjad Jaimoukha) later major cultures in the region.[8]
Metallurgy




The extent of the Kuro-Araxes culture (light shading) shown in relation to subsequent cultures in the area, such as Urartu (dark shading).
In its earliest phase, metal was scant, but it would later display "a precocious metallurgical development which strongly influenced surrounding regions".[9] They worked copper, arsenic, silver, gold,[3] tin, and bronze.[7]
Their metal goods were widely distributed, recorded in the Volga, Dnieper and Don-Donets systems in the north, into Syria and Palestine in the south, and west into Anatolia.




Culture


The culture is closely linked to the approximately contemporaneous Maykop culture of Transcaucasia. As Amjad Jaimoukha puts it,
The Kura-Araxes culture was contiguous, and had mutual influences, with the Maikop culture in the Northwest Caucasus. According to E.I.Krupnov (1969:77), there were elements of the Maikop culture in the early memorials of Chechnya and Ingushetia in the Meken and Bamut kurgans and in Lugovoe in Serzhen-Yurt. Similarities between some features and objects of the Maikop and Kura-Araxes cultures, such as large square graves, the bold-relief curvilinear ornamentation of pottery, ochre-coloured ceramics, earthen hearth props with horn projections, flint arrowheads, stone axes and copper pitchforks are indicative of a cultural unity that pervaded the Caucasus in the Neolithic Age.[11]
Inhumation practices are mixed. Flat graves are found, but so are substantial kurgan burials, the latter of which may be surrounded by cromlechs. This points to a heterogeneous ethno-linguistic population (see section below).[citation needed] Late in the history of this culture, its people built kurgans of greatly varying sizes, containing greatly varying amounts and types of metalwork, with larger, wealthier kurgans surrounded by smaller kurgans containing less wealth.[12] This trend suggests the eventual emergence of a marked social hierarchy.[12] Their practice of storing relatively great wealth in burial kurgans was probably a cultural influence from the more ancient civilizations of the Fertile Crescent to the south.[13]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kura-Araxes_culture


So we see that Kura-Araxes culture traded along the same Volga trading route and along other rivers in the area. This suggests that they used boats for transport. They also traded with Mesopotamia and Asia minor both areas where we find Vinca culture inspired new civilizations at the same time.


Also the burrial practices are showing us that the population was mixed and that the elite was burried in Curgans (tumuluses, bregs) the same like all the other cultures somehow related to Ireland and the Balkans. But this is the most interesting: "substantial kurgan burials were in some cases surrounded by cromlechs"


What is a Cromlech?

Cromlech is a Brythonic word (Breton/Cornish/Welsh) used to describe prehistoric megalithic structures, where crom means "bent" or "curved" and llech means "slab" or "flagstone".[1] The term is now virtually obsolete in archaeology, but remains in use as a colloquial term for two different types of megalithic monument.
In English it usually refers to dolmens, the remains of prehistoric stone chamber tombs.[2] However, it is widely used in French and Spanish to describe stone circles. Confusingly, some English-speaking archaeologists, such as Aubrey Burl, use this second meaning for cromlech in English too.[3]
In addition, the term is occasionally used to describe more complex examples of megalithic architecture, such as the Almendres Cromlech in Portugal.[4]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cromlech
http://www.libraryireland.com/Antiquities/I-I.php


Now half way between Iberia in the east and Iberia in the west we find Mecklenburg-Vorpommern or as it was once known as Pomerania or Pomorje, the land of Slavic sea pirates and possible land of Fomori. And what do we find there?

In the area of present-day Mecklenburg-Vorpommern, Germany, up to 5,000 megalith tombs were erected as burial sites by people of the Neolithic Funnelbeaker (TRB) culture. More than 1,000 of them are preserved today and protected by law. Though varying in style and age, megalith structures are common in Western Europe, with those in Mecklenburg-Vorpommern belonging to the youngest and easternmost—further east, in the modern West Pomeranian Voivodeship of Poland, monuments erected by the TRB people did not include lithic structures, while they do in the south (Brandenburg), west (Lower Saxony and Schleswig-Holstein) and north (Denmark).


The megaliths in Mecklenburg-Vorpommern were erected as burial sites in the Neolithic, by the bearers of the Funnelbeaker (TRB) culture,[1][2] between 3,500 and 3,200 BC.[3] Initially, the TRB people buried their dead in pits, often covered with mounds of clay.[2] Later, they erected dolmens for this purpose,[2] but also continued the use of flat graves.[1] All megaliths were erected during a relatively short time period, spanning about 200 years or about seven generations, with the oldest ones dating to phase C of the Early Neolithic, while most were built in the beginning of the Middle Neolithic.[1]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Megaliths_in_Mecklenburg-Vorpommern



What happened in Pomerania? Is this the place where Vinca culture spreading from the Balkans northwards met Megalitic Atlantean culture? One other thing is very interesting. If we look at who built these megaliths in Pomerania, we see that they were built by funnel beaker people.

The Funnel(-neck-)beaker culture, short TRB or TBK from (German) Trichter(-rand-)becherkultur (ca 4100 BC–ca 2800 BC) was an archaeological culture in north-central Europe. It developed as a technological merger of local neolithic and mesolithic techno-complexes between the lower Elbe and middle Vistula rivers, introducing farming and husbandry as a major source of food to the pottery-using hunter-gatherers north of this line.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Funnelbeaker_culture


Where was the center of this megalith culture which introduced farming and husbandry? It was in the area between Elbe and Vistula, in Pomeranija, the land of Pomori or Fomori. These funnel beaker people descend from Stroke-ornamented ware people who we already mentioned as the guys who first built rondel enclosures or henges.


One very interesting thing about funnel beaker people is that they probably introduced the milk tolerance gene into European population. The distribution of this gene corresponds with the distribution of the funnel beaker culture. But genetically (from the point of view of the male chromosome) this area is very diverse. Actually milk tolerance corresponds most closely with the distribution of the R1b chromosome. Is the R1b the carrier of the Atlantean Megalith culture and and if so where and how did it land in Europe, considering its distribution from west to east? Did it arrive from Caspian Iberia on boats that sailed up Volga river, along the south Baltic coast, and then landed in Ireland Iberia and finally ended up in Atlantic Iberia? Or was the other way round?


Now what is very interesting is the culture that comes after the funnel beaker culture and which is a continuation of the funnel beaker culture: the Corded Ware culture. If we have a look at the spread of the Corded Ware culture, we see that it corresponds with the distribution of Baltic Slavic and Germanic languages. It also corresponds with the distribution of the R1a Y chromosome as well I2 chromosome in Europe.


http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/DNA-Testing/message/1226




It also corresponds with the territory between river Elbe and river Volga the western most and eastern most edges of the Baltic - Caspian trade route. This is the territory which represents the mixing ground between I2 and R1a and, i believe, the birth place of the (Indo) Europeans. If we look at the distribution of the I2 chromosome, we see that both I2a and I2b have spikes around Volga river. Is this because of the ancient Volga trade route? I think so.


http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_I2_Y-DNA.shtml




If we look at the I2a and I2b distribution in Europe we clearly see that the Balkan Baltic region jumps out as the homeland of the I2. This is the exact place where we later find the Celts, and south western Slavs, Germanics and Balts. The same people the same place the same genes, the same language...


Now the last but not the least. Our Mushki who came from the Balkans never appear in Hittite records as a separate nation. Is it because Hitties new that Mushi means men, solders, lords and is not a name for a tribe? Were Mushki just Hittite solders? If we look at the distribution of the Balkan I2a Y chromosome we see that it closely corresponds with the borders of the old Hittite empire and even better with the borders of the Asyrian empire and Sumeran empire. Is this a coincidence? I don't think so. We know that the Vinca type artifacts started appearing in Mesopotamia in the mid 4th millennium BC, right after Vincans decided to go and conquer the world. They brought with them their genes, their culture and their shoes. The clue is in the shoe.


http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_I2_Y-DNA.shtml
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hittites
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assyria
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sumer

 

[Yetos]

Interesting alternative story/theory,
Indeed.

 

[dublin]

thanks Yetos. I thought no one was reading all this and i was talking to myself. again.

 

[dublin]

Speaking about the Mushki and the link between the Serbs, the Irish and the Georgians i came across this article today which says that based on the frequency of the oldest genetic marker HG2 (no idea what that is so would be grateful if someone would explain it to me and the others), Serbs are more related to the Irish, Scandinavians and the Georgians than to the rest of the Slavs.

Here is the article in Serbian:

http://www.novosti.rs/vesti/naslovn...lizi-Ircima-nego-Rusima#.UZFB7aYL8P0.facebook

According to the article Serbs have the most of this HG2 (what ever it is) and here is the concentration and the spreading path diagram. It shows that the gene has originated in Serbia and has then spread towards Georgia and towards Scandinavia and Ireland...

http://www.novosti.rs/upload/images/2013//05/13n/0513-Najstariji-gen_N.jpg

It talks about some research done by Graham Coop. I believe this is the correct article about the results of the research:

http://www.plosbiology.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pbio.1001555

 

[nordicwarrior]

You're seeing connections everywhere.

I'm not saying that you aren't onto something... but you need to clean this up.

That being said, I talked to an older Irish woman a few days ago and she knew much about Celtic/Island myth I'm guessing from being immersed in the culture. She smiled when I mentioned the Firbolg and said without a doubt they were from Viking stock (really proto Viking stock).

 

[Taranis]

thanks Yetos. I thought no one was reading all this and i was talking to myself. again.

Dublin, what if I told you that Slavic languages were spoken only in a relatively small area in Eastern Europe as late as the 400s AD, and that Serbians as a distinct ethnic group did not come into existence until after the migration period? What if I told you that this was the mainstream view?

What I would like to know from you is, what do you find so unbearable about this view that you go through such endless lengths and spend so much time and effort to work on this?

 

[dublin]

hi Nordicwabler

You're seeing connections everywhere. I'm not saying that you aren't onto something... but you need to clean this up.

No not everywhere. But there are some connections which you can see only if you compare multidisciplinary data. And this is what is popping out here. This is also why I am presenting the data in this way, so that connections become obvious. But as i said this is just a collection of notes which describes my path to the final discovery of (what i think is) the origin of the old European gods and finally to the vincan religion. I could go and just present the final discovery (the vincan religion) which prompted me to publish all this, but presenting it this way will force me to think about everything again, double check everything and see if anything new popped up to fill in the blanks. And its more fun as well.

 

[dublin]

Taranis

Dublin, what if I told you that Slavic languages were spoken only in a relatively small area in Eastern Europe as late as the 400s AD, and that Serbians as a distinct ethnic group did not come into existence until after the migration period? What if I told you that this was the mainstream view?

I would say great, i respect this view and anyone who supports it. They must have a great amount of evidence to support their view, which would allow them to quickly show that everything i said here is wrong. I would like to see that evidence. Thanks.

What I would like to know from you is, what do you find so unbearable about this view that you go through such endless lengths and spend so much time and effort to work on this?

You see taranis, you think that i do this from some inferiority complex point of view or maybe superiority complex point of view. You think that i am trying to prove that Serbians are older or Better or more important then the mainstream view says. Maybe this is how you approach history, like a tool for making your nation look better and others worse. You can't understand that anyone would spend time investigating history because they are just interested in history??? You can't understand that there are people who don't care what the latest party line is and are just interested in finding the truth??? You can't understand that some people just enjoy investigative work more that learning official mainstream views by heart.


I hope this answers your questions. And i hope that you guys allow me to present my finds to the end this time and not close this thread just because you don't agree with what i am saying?