US freedom: illusion or reality?

[LeBrok]

1. No, this has nothing to do with the issues I have with US government. Things get much more complex if we isolate just Serbia an US, so I wouldn't get into that on this thread. This is the policy that US and like-minded are conducting all over the world.

So, what should I say to them? Thank you for starting a war here, making properties value go down, buying them at low prices, and now owning half of my country (with 5 or 6 neighboring that emerged from the process)? No, I don't consider that a civilization. That is what I'm dissatisfied with!

I knew it. You are angry at US for forcing Serbia into defeated position. And in your mind "destroying" Yugoslavia.

As for number of Indians in America current consensus is about 50 millions in 1492, with minimal estimate at 10 millions. That's why I used the terminology I did.

I thought we were talking about US and Natives within its borders, and not the whole America. The most populated was central america with Mexico, because they were agriculturalists. Go to Mexico and you will see that majority of them look pure native and there is 100 million of them. Therefore your "close to extinct" is not even close.

2. I'm pretty much satisfied with the way I live, don't know where you got the wrong impression.

Maybe here:

Maybe it works for you, but not here. Only thing we got from that in whole Yugoslavia is bunch of criminals that are using guns, power, force, extortion and bribery, to raise themselves up according to those new standards of success. In fact, I will go that far to say that communism worked better for us, because there was a limitation on a private property for a person

Seams like you're contradicting yourself.

I'm dissatisfied when someone else is trying to inflict on me how I should live. U.S. have a very strong opinion that only they know what is right and that everyone should be living the way they do, because - It is the right way.

Give me one example how US is forcing you personally to live the way they want. It looks to me that you are angry at others (Serbs?) that are following western culture.

3. In Sheldonian words, this is "the logical fallacy of extending someone's argument to ridiculous proportions and then criticizing the result." I would do the same if I told you to superglue yourself to your chair, in front of your laptop, and never come out into the sun light. That's just not a proactive conversation.

When you say 'civilization', do you really mean 'western civilization'? You have to understand that there are people in the world that have different priorities and approach to life. I don't neglect all the achievement of your civilization, but I neglect the need to embrace them all at once and forget everything I was ever taught which has worked here for thousands of years.

The beauty of Western civilization is that it brings freedom of choice to all people. You can chose to live any way you like, or you can live wherever you want. You don't like new technology, don't buy it, don't go to hospital, don't drive your car, throw away your computer. Nobody is forcing your hand to have it.
Let me remind you something. If you lived in communist country you wouldn't have computer and internet to share your views on Eupedia. Unless, it is again US forcing you to do so...

In my opinion western civilization is nowdays obsessed with money and is weighing everything through the prism of economic gain. Maybe it works for you, but not here. Only thing we got from that in whole Yugoslavia is bunch of criminals that are using guns, power, force, extortion and bribery, to raise themselves up according to those new standards of success. In fact, I will go that far to say that communism worked better for us, because there was a limitation on a private property for a person, so they could not appropriate an estate that easy. Now we have ended up with local landlords owing half of the country, and facts are coming out that they are not even the real owners, but they were bying on behalf of a secret foreign investors.

So what changed? Previously you had Red Barons owing Yugoslavia and doing whatever they wanted. And don't use word "us", I'm sure most people don't share your views. Seams like you would sacrifice your people, their freedoms and choices for a dream of Great Yugoslavia again. How imperialistic, despotic and communistic.

 

[Ike]

I knew it. You are angry at US for forcing Serbia into defeated position. And in your mind "destroying" Yugoslavia.

There is no defeated position from my point of view. All sides here lost the war. Serbia even less than others, cause there was not much of a war here. Some other areas are just devastated.

I'm not blaming US for destroying Yugoslavia. I'm blaming US on supporting the fallout of Yugoslavia even though it was sure the war would break out in such a case. It may have been a wild guess back then, but now after Wikileaks and others, we know they US were perfectly aware of that fact, and lots of 'civilized' countries were involved in weapon smuggling. Saying that you want what's good for the people, that you're bringing them freedom, while in fact bringing death and destruction, while making profits is more than disgusting. Julius Caesar said "Divide and conquer". I guess it was Roman civilization that was brought to us back then...

I thought we were talking about US and Natives within its borders, and not the whole America. The most populated was central america with Mexico, because they were agriculturalists. Go to Mexico and you will see that majority of them look pure native and there is 100 million of them. Therefore your "close to extinct" is not even close.

I don't hear them saying that they are. It's like it wasn't that important so they've forgotten? They are now Salvadorians, Panamians, Columbians - all autochthonous native American names. :sarcasm:

Seams like you're contradicting yourself.

Give me one example how US is forcing you personally to live the way they want. It looks to me that you are angry at others (Serbs?) that are following western culture.

I'm not dissatisfied with my life. I feel good. I'm dissatisfied with the fact that those people (criminals) are not yet in jail. That is the fault of our judicial system, not US. And it's not the case of Serbia, but the whole region. Again, Serbia is somewhere in between, there are much worse examples of total anarchy in Balkans.

You know, one should not get angry with the kid shooting with a gun. The responsibility is on the person who gave him the gun to shoot around.

The beauty of Western civilization is that it brings freedom of choice to all people. You can chose to live any way you like, or you can live wherever you want. You don't like new technology, don't buy it, don't go to hospital, don't drive your car, throw away your computer. Nobody is forcing your hand to have it.
Let me remind you something. If you lived in communist country you wouldn't have computer and internet to share your views on Eupedia. Unless, it is again US forcing you to do so...

I never said that I don't like the new technologies. You're turning my words around again. If anything, I ment that a man should not be a slave to technological progress, and that there are way more important things than what 'civilization' brings. Again, we have a very different perspective of civilization, and even though you're trying to make me look funny and awkward by presenting it all as in isolated set from which I have given up in it's entirety, there are some large intersections that you deliberately leave out. It is the same as if I would say that alphabet was invented on the East some 5000 years ago, and that you should give it up and go drive your 4000 cc car. Things just don't work that way. We've had hospitals here long before Columbus discovered America. Try addressing the things that are different, and try to understand the difference in perception, maybe then you'll be on the right track.

So what changed? Previously you had Red Barons owing Yugoslavia and doing whatever they wanted. And don't use word "us", I'm sure most people don't share your views. Seams like you would sacrifice your people, their freedoms and choices for a dream of Great Yugoslavia again. How imperialistic, despotic and communistic.

Your opinion is just wrong. Don't know where the heck you got it?
What do you mean imperialistic? SFRJ brought down the Empire in 1945. Lots of people died for that. And broke away from communism in 1948. In fact letter S in SFRJ stands for Socialistic. There were no despots here. Only one who could have been categorized like that was Tito. But he died a long time ago, leaving his family with not a lot of money. His wife is still alive. Living in a same small flat since his death. His grandson owns a small resturant which he built by himself. What kind of Baronism or Despotism are you talking about? It seems to me that you've seen to much US movies, and have a very bad bias towards the eastern cultures. Anyway, we should not make this an East/West quarrel, because the US are weighing this cultural war on all ethnicities.

 

[Ike]

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And by this you mean they have the same rights and freedoms, and protection under the law, as all American citizens....and your problem with this is what exactly? Are you saying they should look on these new people as less than anyone else, deny them the rights that being an American citizen entitles them to..in essence "think" of them as not an American?

No. I am saying that you can become an American by gaining US citizenship, but you can't become Dutch just by gaining citizenship of Netherlands. Why? Because I have no Dutch ancestors. Saying that I'm a Dutchman would be a lie. I would just have a paper giving me the right to live in Netherlands according to their laws and call myself a citizen of Netherlands. US is a different case. United-statians already feel free to call themselves Americans although 98% of them have no ancestors in America.

Do not measure what others may be able to feel or accept against your inability to do so. Many people from different countries have gone to America, kept respect for their customs whilst having no problems in seeing themselves as American citizens also. As for the art ..there are, as you say, immigrants from many countries in America.. I should think it not too hard to find art or music to suit all tastes..it has variety.
If you feel you could relate to so little in Germany as a German citizen...then why would you contemplate it at all?

Again, you're comparing America with Europe, which cannot be done. If you or I went to America we would become Americans. But if we went to China, would be become Chinese? Would we get a squinted eyes?

As for relating to other ethnicities I'm talking from what I've heard from all the people that lived 1+ years abroad. Also, from what I've heard, people of Western and especially Northern Europe have a problem accepting foreigners. I'm not saying that they are disrespectful, but almost everyone told me that they don't feel 'welcomed' in Scandinavia.

Not sure what type of "ethnic behavior you are talking about here..could you be more precise.

Any behavior that is not autochthonous. Some like to lay a blanket in the park and have a meal, some like to stop a car when passing by the church and say a quick "Hail Mary", or "Hail Pegasus" whatever...

Sounds pretty much like an excuse to have them not come. What if they cannot get work, education or health care in their own countries, due to wars or ethnic persecution?

No, it's not an excuse. People should mix, and learn from other cultures, it's just that immigration today has become an obsession. I'm most certain that right now you have 20 million of Chinese that would be delightful to come to your country just for a better life. That is just too much.Take a look at this movie if you're interested.

As for countries in war, it would be best for them if we stooped selling them guns and ammo.

Well is it or is it not?...surely you have a better debate and sources other than "likely".

I personally think it is, but since I have no substantial evidence I had to use that sentence construction.

No, I agree, one should be allowed to ask questions. Which questions do you have in mind?.
Also, nice to note if you take German citizenship [although goodness knows why, as you would have so much trouble adjusting, it seems] you would expect full rights as such. However you are not so generous as to allow others such rights, unless it gets "slip-sided" in.

Yes, but by getting German citizenship you get both rights and commitments. They are defined by German law, which one should abide to if he is living in Germany with their citizenship. It has nothing to do with smuggling the 'right of free sexual expression for sexual minorities' into the same basket with basic human rights. They simply are not.

 

[hope]

No. I am saying that you can become an American by gaining US citizenship, but you can't become Dutch just by gaining citizenship of Netherlands..

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It`s all just playing with words and terms here. You gain citizenship of America, you are an American citizen..you gain citizenship of Netherlands, you are a citizen of Netherlands.

Because I have no Dutch ancestors. Saying that I'm a Dutchman would be a lie. I would just have a paper giving me the right to live in Netherlands according to their laws and call myself a citizen of Netherlands.

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Yes, now you are getting how it works!

Let me ask you this, if you should find you have an Irish ancestor, would that, according to your theory above, make it true for you to call yourself an Irish man? Can I say I am Norwegian, I had some Norwegian ancestors?.. although they did like to indulge in some pillaging, but then who hasn`t got a few skeletons in the family closet.

US is a different case. United-statians already feel free to call themselves Americans although 98% of them have no ancestors in America

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Yes, they do seem to enjoy peculiar assimilation practices and freedoms in America do they not!

Again, you're comparing America with Europe, which cannot be done. If you or I went to America we would become Americans. But if we went to China, would be become Chinese? Would we get a squinted eyes?

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First, I am answering YOUR points on America. Second, and more important..your last sentence is incredibly rude and not worthy of a member of Eupedia.

I'm not saying that they are disrespectful, but almost everyone told me that they don't feel 'welcomed' in Scandinavia.

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You will have to check the figures out for yourself, mine are quite out-dated, but here they are. NORWAY..approx 4 985 800
immigrants. DENMARK..no figures but quite large first and further generations...SWEDEN..approx 1.33 odd million. That is a lot of people living in "unwelcoming" Scandanavian countries. How many actually told you they did not feel welcome?

IAny behavior that is not autochthonous. Some like to lay a blanket in the park and have a meal, some like to stop a car when passing by the church and say a quick "Hail Mary", or "Hail Pegasus" whatever...

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And..? As far as I know this is perfectly fine in the country we are not talking about!

No, it's not an excuse. People should mix, and learn from other cultures, it's just that immigration today has become an obsession. I'm most certain that right now you have 20 million of Chinese that would be delightful to come to your country just for a better life. That is just too much.Take a look at this movie if you're interested..

.

Now when you say 20 million, is this one of your "likely" numbers?

As for countries in war, it would be best for them if we stooped selling them guns and ammo.

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Probably. Unfortunately a lot of money is made from this sort of thing. It might be hard to stop completely.

Yes, but by getting German citizenship you get both rights and commitments. They are defined by German law, which one should abide to if he is living in Germany with their citizenship. It has nothing to do with smuggling the 'right of free sexual expression for sexual minorities' into the same basket with basic human rights. They simply are not.

Not sure quite what you are saying here..sorry

 

[LeBrok]

There is no defeated position from my point of view. All sides here lost the war. Serbia even less than others, cause there was not much of a war here. Some other areas are just devastated.

I'm not blaming US for destroying Yugoslavia. I'm blaming US on supporting the fallout of Yugoslavia even though it was sure the war would break out in such a case. It may have been a wild guess back then, but now after Wikileaks and others, we know they US were perfectly aware of that fact, and lots of 'civilized' countries were involved in weapon smuggling. Saying that you want what's good for the people, that you're bringing them freedom, while in fact bringing death and destruction, while making profits is more than disgusting. Julius Caesar said "Divide and conquer". I guess it was Roman civilization that was brought to us back then...

Divide and conquer? And yet US supports EU, and I would like to stress the union part. Actions of US don't support your conspiracy theory. As we know, actions are stronger than words.

I don't hear them saying that they are. It's like it wasn't that important so they've forgotten? They are now Salvadorians, Panamians, Columbians - all autochthonous native American names. :sarcasm:

Go to Mexico and you will hear them. They are proud Azteks.

I'm not dissatisfied with my life.

I have different impression from your posts.

I never said that I don't like the new technologies. You're turning my words around again. If anything, I ment that a man should not be a slave to technological progress, and that there are way more important things than what 'civilization' brings. Again, we have a very different perspective of civilization, and even though you're trying to make me look funny and awkward by presenting it all as in isolated set from which I have given up in it's entirety, there are some large intersections that you deliberately leave out. It is the same as if I would say that alphabet was invented on the East some 5000 years ago, and that you should give it up and go drive your 4000 cc car. Things just don't work that way. We've had hospitals here long before Columbus discovered America. Try addressing the things that are different, and try to understand the difference in perception, maybe then you'll be on the right track.

The problem of your thinking is that you disassociated understanding of social structures from economic progress of humankind.
Economic progress of agriculturalists brought us alphabets and arithmetics. It wasn't vice versa, but they added strength to societies.
Economic progress of bronze and iron smelting, brought us wheels, wagons, and strong axes to clear more forests for farming, also first empires. If you were still hunter-gatherer you would think of bronze and iron age culture as very greedy. (Likewise, you as current human, for bronze age people you would look greedy and materialistic). But it gave us first European civilizations with new techniques of building, tool making, first sciences and theatres, even invented democracy.
Next big jump was capitalism/free market economy that unleashed creative and inventive side of ordinary citizens. Brought us modern medicine, computers, new sources of energy, warm clean houses, transportation around the planet, etc. All materialistic you would say? Not all, but this materialistic wealth is the base of our modern social achievements. Capitalism, new production system and wealth gave work outside feudal/slave structure to millions of men and money for schools for ordinary citizens. Once they've become free and and educated, it was a short step to the fall of Empires (after WWI) and democratic system of today. This new production system and wealth gave work outside homes for women. Once they had their own money they could become independent from men, and demanded equal rights. Patriarchal social structure is history now in Western Culture.
This is in nutshell, how forces of invention and production (materialistic in nature), bring social and political changes. Gives power and freedoms to us simple citizens. Sure I would like to be rich and powerful, but I'll take my freedoms, comforts and quality of life over life as feudal peasant or disillusioned citizen in any dictatorship, even socialistic kind.
I know what I'm talking about, I've escaped from there.

Unlike capitalism (being evolutionary system), socialism is an artificial concept invented by few philosophers. Socialism/Communism was introduced by force and being artificial (not in tune with human nature) never gave good benefits to ordinary people. That's why it never worked, people were unhappy, and had to be kept with force by dictators all the time. Pretty much like newer version of feudalism. Any attempt of peaceful change to socialism, like in Sweden, wasn't successful either.
Here is a quick answer what works and why.

You can't uncouple our wealth from our social life. That's why I spend so much time arguing our material achievements. They are the precursor of our social life and our freedoms.
Take away all our goods and products and in one generation we would end up in caves again chopping flint stone. Which in fact is a material object, our first invention.

Your opinion is just wrong. Don't know where the heck you got it?
What do you mean imperialistic? SFRJ brought down the Empire in 1945. Lots of people died for that. And broke away from communism in 1948. In fact letter S in SFRJ stands for Socialistic. There were no despots here. Only one who could have been categorized like that was Tito. But he died a long time ago, leaving his family with not a lot of money. His wife is still alive. Living in a same small flat since his death. His grandson owns a small resturant which he built by himself. What kind of Baronism or Despotism are you talking about? It seems to me that you've seen to much US movies, and have a very bad bias towards the eastern cultures. Anyway, we should not make this an East/West quarrel, because the US are weighing this cultural war on all ethnicities.

I was more referring to your character and dreams than to Yugoslavia.
To add to it, I'm finding you very conservative and traditional, afraid of any new changes or foreign ideas, or even people of different culture.


PS. Still waiting for one example how America forces you to do things.

 

[Ike]

1. It`s all just playing with words and terms here. You gain citizenship of America, you are an American citizen..you gain citizenship of Netherlands, you are a citizen of Netherlands. Yes, now you are getting how it works!

Let me ask you this, if you should find you have an Irish ancestor, would that, according to your theory above, make it true for you to call yourself an Irish man? Can I say I am Norwegian, I had some Norwegian ancestors?.. although they did like to indulge in some pillaging, but then who hasn't got a few skeletons in the family closet.

First, I am answering YOUR points on America. Second, and more important..your last sentence is incredibly rude and not worthy of a member of Eupedia.

2. You will have to check the figures out for yourself, mine are quite out-dated, but here they are. NORWAY..approx 4 985 800
immigrants. DENMARK..no figures but quite large first and further generations...SWEDEN..approx 1.33 odd million. That is a lot of people living in "unwelcoming" Scandanavian countries. How many actually told you they did not feel welcome?

3. And..? As far as I know this is perfectly fine in the country we are not talking about!

4. Now when you say 20 million, is this one of your "likely" numbers?

5. Probably. Unfortunately a lot of money is made from this sort of thing. It might be hard to stop completely.

6.Not sure quite what you are saying here..sorry

1. I used China as an example that getting someones citizenship doesn't automatically make you same as them. You didn't want to understand this on examples from US and Europe, so I had to pull out a more contrasty example. I did use the term 'squinted eyes', don't know if it's correct but that's the only one I know from the internet and movies. English is not my mother tongue, if there is a proper term you should have pointed that out. If anyone feels insulted, it was really not my intention and I'm sorry . :ashamed2:

Anyway, don't know about Ireland, but we still track records of what tribe someone is belonging to, and those date back for centuries into the past.

I don't think one can say much about himself. Others would have to vouch for you. If Norwegians said that you are Norwegian I would believe them. They are the most competent ones on that subject. Yes, we can argue about this one...

Those are not my points on America, that is how Americans feel about themselves, and want all others to feel like that, but we don't. Is it really that you don't understand what I'm talking about, or you're just making a fun with me because you find it interesting to read my bad English trying to explain the same this subject over and over again? p.s. :cool-v:


2. The numbers are not representative in any way. They do not reflect the situation on the field and tension. There were millions of pilgrims in America in the 18th century, but they were not quite welcome there. Just now we've had a riots in Sweden, and it seems indicative of the situation.


3. I don't hear it is fine in the US. Have you ever seen a person giving his prayers in the streets of New York or wearing burqa? If I'm wrong, please correct me.

4. Yes. Do you think I'm wrong? Are the correct numbers really important here? Or you think I made a mistake of about 1000x and I'm going into a dead-end because of the wrong premise?

5. Yes, a lot of money that could be used for education, health care, and making living conditions better for people in those areas.

6. I said everything that I could without breaking the law. Anything more and I would probably get an Admin warning, so you'll have to settle with that. :innocent:

 

[Ike]

1. Divide and conquer? And yet US supports EU, and I would like to stress the union part. Actions of US don't support your conspiracy theory. As we know, actions are stronger than words.

2. Go to Mexico and you will hear them. They are proud Azteks.

3. I have different impression from your posts.

4. The problem of your thinking is that you disassociated understanding of social structures from economic progress of humankind.
Economic progress of agriculturalists brought us alphabets and arithmetics. It wasn't vice versa, but they added strength to societies.
Economic progress of bronze and iron smelting, brought us wheels, wagons, and strong axes to clear more forests for farming, also first empires. If you were still hunter-gatherer you would think of bronze and iron age culture as very greedy. (Likewise for bronze age people you would look greedy and materialistic). But it gave us first European civilizations with new technics of building, tool making, first sciences and theatres, even invented democracy.

Next big jump was capitalism/free market economy that unleashed creative and inventive side of ordinary citizens. Brought us modern medicine, computers, new sources of energy, warm clean houses, transportation around the planet, etc. All materialistic you would say? Not all, but this materialistic wealth is the base of our modern social achievements. Capitalism, new production system and wealth gave work outside feudal/slave structure to millions of men and money for schools for ordinary citizens. Once they've become free and and educated, it was a short step to the fall of Empires (after WWI) and democratic system of today. This new production system and wealth gave work outside homes for women. Once they had their own money they could become independent from men, and demanded equal rights. Patriarchal social structure is history now in Western Culture.
This is in nutshell, how forces of invention and production (materialistic in nature), bring social and political changes. Gives power and freedoms to us simple citizens. Sure I would like to be rich and powerful, but I'll take my freedoms, comforts and quality of life over life as feudal peasant or disillusioned citizen in any dictatorship, even socialistic kind.
I know what I'm talking about, I've escaped from there.

5. Unlike capitalism (being evolutionary system), socialism is an artificial concept invented by few philosophers. Socialism/Communism was introduced by force and being artificial (not in tune with human nature) never gave good benefits to ordinary people. That's why it never worked, people were unhappy, and had to be kept with force by dictators all the time. Pretty much like newer version of feudalism. Any attempt of peaceful change to socialism, like in Sweden, wasn't successful either.

6. Here is a quick answer what works and why.

You can't uncouple our wealth from our social life. That's why I spend so much time arguing our material achievements. They are the precursor of our social life and our freedoms.
Take away all our goods and products and in one generation we would end up in caves again chopping flint stone. Which in fact is a material object, our first invention.

7. I was more referring to your character and dreams than to Yugoslavia.
To add to it, I'm finding you very conservative and traditional, afraid of any new changes or foreign ideas, or even people of different culture.


PS. Still waiting for one example how America forces you to do things.

1. Off course US supports everyone. It's like Mike Tyson asking for integration of all boxing categories (from 45 to 145 kg). So does the US want to make a deeper penetration into our societies to make a cultural assimilation easier. Nothing better than a union. A wife-beater likes nothing better than when his wife is with him.

2. This stuff about native Americans is getting hmmm. I say this, then you say that. I say Wikipedia says this, you say that they say that. I say that what you said about them saying this is wrong.... We have to get back to the start and consider facts. In fact, I've forgotten what the original issue was about. I said that US would be filled with hundreds of millions Indians right now, if there was not for us to bring them civilization?

3. Maybe you do, but these are just posts about US. It's not like I think about them the whole day. You're making a premature conclusions about me, based solely on this one subject.

4. I appreciate your writings, but .... I don't have anything against progress, I just don't like people who are obsessed with money and call that civilization. It's just a plain, old 'wolf in sheep's clothing'. They want to make money and they need workers, oil and other natural resources. If some kind of progress is a consequence of that process, it's of no concern to them. It's just a bypass product.

5. Both systems are artificial and you don't need to try to be persuasive cause I know everything about all of them. Since Rousseau's concept of modern state, people were trying to reach a better compromise among themselves and configure a better form of social contract. Some worked better, some worse. Imperialistic countries which relied on slaves and colonies went the way which is perfectly logical for them. Some other societies hadn't felt comfortable with that kind of agreement and went the other way.

6. Exactly that is problem with US. They are based solely on the material wealth, and once it is gone they'd descend into anarchy. That's exactly what I'm talking about! They just don't understand that not all the people in the world are like that, but they want to make us be like that by pretending that they are giving us freedom, while instead making us a money dependent.

I'm not saying (nor do I remember using the term) that US is literally forcing me to do something. US is making constant political, cultural and social propaganda to embrace small societies and nations into their system of belief. And of course as #2 said, not always peaceful methods, they use wars.

7. Maybe you fell like that, but it is not the truth. You're really welcome to come here to see where we live, what we do, how we behave, conduct to foreigners, etc. Maybe you'll be surprised.

 

[LeBrok]

1. Off course US supports everyone. It's like Mike Tyson asking for integration of all boxing categories (from 45 to 145 kg). So does the US want to make a deeper penetration into our societies to make a cultural assimilation easier. Nothing better than a union. A wife-beater likes nothing better than when his wife is with him.

Well in this case you should have said "Unite and conquer".

2. This stuff about native Americans is getting hmmm. I say this, then you say that. I say Wikipedia says this, you say that they say that. I say that what you said about them saying this is wrong.... We have to get back to the start and consider facts. In fact, I've forgotten what the original issue was about. I said that US would be filled with hundreds of millions Indians right now, if there was not for us to bring them civilization?

No it wouldn't be filled with hundreds of millions, because US and Canadian Natives were either hunter-gatherers or small scale farmers. Their food production was limited, not enough for the numbers you said. Population of the past was always limited and adequate to food production.
And no, those days there was no Red Cross, US or any international help, sending bags with food to starving populations.

3. Maybe you do, but these are just posts about US. It's not like I think about them the whole day. You're making a premature conclusions about me, based solely on this one subject.

Without quoting me I'm not sure what you are referring to.

4. I appreciate your writings, but .... I don't have anything against progress, I just don't like people who are obsessed with money and call that civilization. It's just a plain, old 'wolf in sheep's clothing'. They want to make money and they need workers, oil and other natural resources. If some kind of progress is a consequence of that process, it's of no concern to them. It's just a bypass product.

If my freedoms, equality and good life is a byproduct of invention and production combine with free market economy, I'll take it. Who cares how we call it and where it cames from. If it is for improvement and betterment of society, and I love it. I like the natural way of things. They work for us and I embrace it, so do other people, that's why capitalism stays with us. This is evolutionary way, and like in nature successful species live on.

5. Both systems are artificial and you don't need to try to be persuasive cause I know everything about all of them.

Capitalism/big manufacturing/free market started about 500 years ago with invention of better and faster machines, capital investments in manufacturing, stock markets, steam engines, etc. After 500 years it is somewhat different, but live and kicking in most prosperous countries on this planet, and even embraced by "communist" China. We should mention that during last 25 years 400 million Chinese escaped poverty and became middle class, not mentioning hundreds of millions in other Asian nations. That's the vitality and power of capitalistic economy.
It started small in England 500 years ago, it evolved, got adopted (mutation/adaptation) to all races, cultures and nations (environment), and is a prime engine of economic growth of today's world (successful species).
Please, could you remind us the definition of evolution (as per natural selection)?
Think about people, societies or nations as environments. Economic or political systems operate in these environments, therefore they are susceptible to natural selection laws. If something exists for long time (money, production, capitalism, religion) it means it works, if something vanishes quickly like socialism, means it didn't work. Simple like that.
It doesn't mean capitalism or religion is the best ever. It means that it is the best what we have right now. In future new things will be invented and only time will tell if they replace capitalism in production, or religion in spirituality. Only time will test them in people environment and will give us the right answer, was it good or was it bad.
I'm not the judge, I'm just an observer of natural forces in action.

6. Exactly that is problem with US. They are based solely on the material wealth, and once it is gone they'd descend into anarchy.

From poverty every country will go into anarchy, revolution or other mess. That's why wealth of citizens is very important.
And please, don't make statements like this. Americans are more religious than most European countries. Americans are more proud than most Europeans. America, and many rich Americans, are biggest philanthropists on Earth. Americans can sacrifice and die for freedoms and many other causes, never mind if right or wrong. For 150 years they didn't attack their neighbours (unlike Serbs). They have the longest lived democratic system of modern times.
Well, it is not all about money, wouldn't you say?


That's exactly what I'm talking about! They just don't understand that not all the people in the world are like that, but they want to make us be like that by pretending that they are giving us freedom, while instead making us a money dependent.[/QUOTE]
Wow, that's what they forcing you to? Use your strong will, spit on money and throw them away. Don't be the slave of money!
But seriously.
If you referring to some loans that foreign banks gave to Serbia and now Serbia has to pay with interest, did you find out what banks is Serbia mostly indebted to? I don't know the details, but I would be surprised if these banks are mostly American. I also doubt that US is biggest investor in Serbian real estate.
Anyway most banks are international these days, or at least have international shareholders. And I'm sure you will find Serbs among shareholders of all banks on this planet.

I'm not saying (nor do I remember using the term) that US is literally forcing me to do something. US is making constant political, cultural and social propaganda to embrace small societies and nations into their system of belief. And of course as #2 said, not always peaceful methods, they use wars.

You said this

U.S. have a very strong opinion that only they know what is right and that everyone should be living the way they do, because - It is the right way.

Therefore, I asked, what exactly they're forcing you to do? From previous paragraph I finally learned that they forcing you to use (their) money.

cultural and social propaganda to embrace small societies and nations into their system of belief

I thought we agreed that they want to unite Europe into one big EU to have only one enemy? Now the big bad US kicks small guys again, geez.

7. Maybe you fell like that, but it is not the truth. You're really welcome to come here to see where we live, what we do, how we behave, conduct to foreigners, etc. Maybe you'll be surprised.

Thanks for invite, I will. In mean time try traveling more and talking to natives of all countries. You will find they are mostly good people wanting exactly the same. Home, family, car, computer, internet, smartphone, vacation, peace, good health, find god or purpose of life, etc. Even Americans and Canadians.

PS. Please, try quoting us with your answer underneath, it is more transparent and understandable. I know it might be something new for you, but it is worth it.

 

[Yetos]

a strange history, that fits to thread.

'cryptocides primordiales'

discovered by Raymond Rife at 1930,
follows koch theory demans when HIV does not,
can resist from absolute zero to 400 C
by using Koch's theory he manage to cure 400 cases of cancer,
yet he was sent to judges by AMA suporters,
they steal his microscope and burn down his lab,
they destroy the machines he created that can kill cryptocides primordiales
and finally they also burn Barnett Lab in NJersey
and poison a fan of his work Dr Milibank Johnson
co-insidence
Dr Nemes that doubled the worked also burned alive when his lab got fire
but his partner took 200 000 $ as grant and just disapear


no need to write about Jimmy Hoffa case.

or how UNICEF traped Osama Bin Landen.

the last case is now in Moscow airport, in the neutral zone asking for an asylon, a refugee.

just to sharp some people memmory to judge correct
it is for you to decide where is truth and freedom and where the illusion

 

[Ike]

@LeBrok

Message entering screen's functionality and visibility is not good enough, for me to try to quote your quotation of my quotation. I can't see my message in it's entirety, and I'm not sure what am I typing. Even that much (which I've tried in first two answers) is real pain in the eggs.

Anyway, in the last thread couple of threads I've explained you what I dislike about US.
It's not about the lawns, it's not about Serbia (you have opened some subjects here which are far beyond this topic but I don't want to reply now, just to tell you that I disagree on many of your inputs). It's about making the whole world one big US. They are making every possible kind of effort to make it happen (and I gave my theories why they want it so). They are offensive and annoying, and if they can't make it happen they are aggressive (they've been in war with like half of the world).

I'm already repeating myself, and don't want to dissolve my arguments more.

 

[LeBrok]

@LeBrok

Anyway, in the last thread couple of threads I've explained you what I dislike about US.
It's not about the lawns, it's not about Serbia (you have opened some subjects here which are far beyond this topic but I don't want to reply now, just to tell you that I disagree on many of your inputs).

I addressed your inputs, but you didn't address mine. For example:
You said that US is only about money. In response I listed many great things about US that is not about money. You didn't dispute my points at all. Does it means you agreed with them?
Furthermore, I posted my proof of evolutionary character of capitalism/free market economy. Did you agree?

It's about making the whole world one big US. They are making every possible kind of effort to make it happen (and I gave my theories why they want it so). They are offensive and annoying, and if they can't make it happen they are aggressive (they've been in war with like half of the world).

Exactly like Serbia to other Yugoslavia ethnic groups? It wouldn't be hypocritical if you criticized Serbia first for being aggressive and annoying, or started a thread about Serbia aggression, before you started mouthing other countries.

It's about making the whole world one big US

If it is the truth, I'd like it much better than whole world like China, Russia, Serbia or Greece.

 

[nordicwarrior]

Here's a fun question for everyone-- to whom do you place your highest allegiance... the United Nations or the country where you claim citizenship? I'm interested in hearing as many answers as possible. I have very little use for the U.N. personally. The more I learn of almost any governing body, the less use I seem to have for them.

 

[nordicwarrior]

Please don't bump this question to another thread... it relates directly to the illusion of freedom in the U.S. Plus all of the budding globalists should have a chance to announce their loyalties!

 

[LeBrok]

Here's a fun question for everyone-- to whom do you place your highest allegiance... the United Nations or the country where you claim citizenship? I'm interested in hearing as many answers as possible. I have very little use for the U.N. personally. The more I learn of almost any governing body, the less use I seem to have for them.

The question is not clear.

 

[nordicwarrior]

Sorry, I'm seeing if anyone on Eupedia puts the dictates of the U.N. over their own nation. In your case, would you consider Canada or the United Nations decisions/goals/ideals more binding?

 

[LeBrok]

Canada. I've never treated UN in serious way.

 

[ElHorsto]

Sorry, I'm seeing if anyone on Eupedia puts the dictates of the U.N. over their own nation. In your case, would you consider Canada or the United Nations decisions/goals/ideals more binding?

The power of the UN has continuously decreased, so I guess only very few will consider the UN as binding.

 

[LeBrok]

The power of economy (that I'm an apostle of) is much stronger than artificial and bureaucratic institution of UN. Having said that, UN still have some useful functions in today's global village, but only if everybody can agree (and that's the problem). Overall it is huge wasteful and corrupt institution. Even without UN world would go on pretty much the same way.
Without capitalism and free market economy we still would have been stuck in 17th century.

 

[alibaz]

Just an observation - on every occasion I have been in the US, I have been astounded to see how censored the US news is. American citizens really are kept in the dark about what is happening in the rest of the world and how the US is being viewed by the rest of the world.

 

[LeBrok]

Just an observation - on every occasion I have been in the US, I have been astounded to see how censored the US news is. American citizens really are kept in the dark about what is happening in the rest of the world and how the US is being viewed by the rest of the world.

American news is very consumer based. It shows mostly what average American is interested in, and it is about America. Well, America is almost big as continent.
Can you tell me what happened yesterday in Zimbabwe?
There is probably not enough hours in day to listen to news from every country.

What a most Brits interested in these days? New royal baby?